mikebse2a3
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Posts posted by mikebse2a3
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Bob
I hope this drawing came through OK I'm still learning how to post images.
anyway this is a drawing I had made of the AL network in the lascala I had owned.
The resistor is missing in the drawing because I drew it after klipsch had modified it for me.It was located between the tie point terminal (next to the 30uf cap mounting screw) and (negative input) return connection which goes to the Squawkers (+) terminal if you look at ALK diagram. If you trace the wire going from the autoformer to the 8uf in series with a transformer marked 2133 you will see the tiepoint terminal I'm talking about.Sorry its not a picture but its the best I can do for you now.Also notice the Zener/Bracket next to the 2uf and air coil in the tweeter circuit in the bottom left of the drawing.
the lascala's I owned had a cabnit problem and klipsch exchanged my lascala cabnits for some belle klipsch cabnits free I just had to buy some squaker horns and they used my componets and modified my crossovers by disabling the coil/cap/resistor network across the squawker for best measured responce in their lab at the time.This was done to keep me from having to buy the belle networks
hope this helps and maybe someone will post an actual picture for you of one like this.
mike
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Bob
Sorry: for some reason I can't get the drawing I made to upload
so I'll have to try later.
All I know to tell you is mine where bought in 5/1988 and where marked Type AL
they definitly had the Zener protection also.
I do know that klipsch was starting to change some of the belle klipsch networks around this time from some conversations I had with Jim Hunter at klipsch and I would think they where looking into the Lascala networks also. So by 1990 it wouldn't suprise me if they had been changed.
mike
edit: I said 1989 in my earlier post but should have said 1988
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Bob mine where type AL and the componets where just as the diagram ALK posted.
I can't read the values of the caps in the diagram ALK posted easley but both are actually 8uf in the squawker circuit.
I'll try to post a drawing of the network I made back then.
mike
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Hey Bob
The diagram that ALK gave you is correct.
I owned a pair of Lascala in 1989 serial nos.(8825960 & 8825961)
and looking back at my drawings of the crossovers that is exactly the way mine were and they were definitly type AL.
mike
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J.4Knee
What level setting for the squawker are you using now.
I'm using the 5-2 setting(KHorn) in my system/room setup.
Definitly use very good recordings to get a good feel for where you want to leave it set.
Variations in Recordings and room/setup can definitly affect your preferance.
mike
edit: I see you have found a problem with the woofer section hope its just a bad connection or something simple for you.
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Hey D-MAN
Just a thought.
If your listening of axis of the tweeter then it looks to me like the path length would be different depending on which orientation your using because of the sound wave having to travel past the cheeks of the horn in one orientation and not when in the other orientation and maybe this could cause some interference with the Squawker around the crossover freq. and some lobing in the dispersion pattern of the speaker system that your hearing and noticing in the imaging.Again just a thought?
If you are listening on axis of the tweeter then the path length wouldn't change due to horn orientation. As you mentioned maybe its just a matter of the way the horn is dispersing the sound to the room that your picking up on?
I know I played with the polarity of the T-35 in my Khorns on the ALK network and I can't say I could really hear a difference if I swaped the polarity but If I used the ETF computer test program then I could make the responce look better around the crossover frequency by using different polaritys for on axis listening versus off axis listening.
How are your tweeters setup compared to the squawker?
Are they verically aligned with it or are they off to the side of it?
When you change orientation of the tweeter are you keeping the path length to the listening position identical? If you are doing this then it seems to me the difference would be more in the way the tweeter disperses the sound in the different orientations.
mike
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Do I want to see a review? IT DEPENDS
I remember reading in some of PWK's papers that because of the incompetent ways some reviewers had shown he wasn't interested in having the speakers reviewed this way. I'd guess PWK's "Yellow Buttons" got used alot for the ways of some of these magazines/reviewers.
I wonder how the review in Audio by Richard Heyser came about.
"Maybe" it was that Mr. Heyser had shown that he could and would do a high quality review and properly install the KHORN.It would be interesting to know the background for this review.
Anyway I would love to see a good review of the KHORN so that alot more audiophiles could see that the path PWK set us on in 1945 is still just as true today and like no other speaker it has definitly stood the test of time! But the real way for people to learn about the KHorn is to be exposed to the musical reproduction it is capable of and they will be hooked like all of us!!!
What I wouldn't want to see is a review where the reviewer didn't take the time or steps to properly setup the KHorn which seems to happen in some of these so called reviews we see like on the internet. "This happens alot and not just to the KHorns" yet some people will read these reviews and think they know the product. If a magazine/reviewer can't properly accommodate the KHorns setup/needs then I would have no interest in the review because it would be useless.
One other thought!
Where where these magazines when PWK passed away?
I was so disappointed and think they should be ashamed that they didn't cover this true pioneer's work and legacy!!!
mike
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Hey artto
thanks for recommending
John Lee Hooker "Chill Out"
Buddy Guy "Blues Singer"
Man I really like these!!!
This is what I'm talking about cause both have great music and sound which is hard to find.
TBrennan said:
I like "Some Kind of Wonderful" by Buddy Guy. The song is actually more Soul than Blues and it really cooks, I mean smokin'.
I didn't spot this one today but I'll be looking out for it.Do you know the title of the CD its from?
Again thanks everyone for the suggestions and any more will be appreciated.
mike
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Just wanted to say thanks to PWK and Klipsch and Associates
for the Klipschorn and Belle Klipsch loudspeakers and Muddy Waters for the music I listened to tonight.
Tonight I was trying some new tubes in my pre-amp and started listening. The next thing I knew I'd listened to 4 CDs all the way through no skipping tracks just drawn into the music.The Khorns/Belle just allowed me to connect to the music/artist in a way that makes it really hard to stop listening."4 HRs to sleep before work"
For those who like BLUES two of my favorites are
Muddy Waters folk singer
Sonny Boy Williamson Keep It To Ourselves
these recordings aren't perfect but they have a quality that is very real.
Anybody got other Blues favorites? I would love to find more recordings of the style and quality of these two.
Thanks
mike
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Hi Gil
I just wanted to say thanks for the information sheets and documents you often share on the forum. I like collecting info like this and really appreciate it.
mike
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THANKS KLIPSCH
I like the new site!
Noticed under the Heritage Products a place for the "Klipschorn Jubilee". Even though this section isn't complete I hope its a sign of it being introduced.
mike
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Hello DrWho:
Have you read the book "TIME DELAY SPECTROMETRY" it's an Anthology of the works of Richard C. Heyser on measurement, analysis, and perception.It was put out by the Audio Engineering Society in 1988.I admire Richard Heyser's and Paul Klipsch's works. They were Giants in my book!
Here is my thinking at this time from all I've learned myself and from others works.
(1) What we are doing "recording/playback" is just an illusion a trick if you will or as PWK called it stereophoney.When we record a solo vocalist for example even if you played back the recording on a 2 or 3 channel stereo system in the same room as the recording was made you still have a simulated vocalist created from 2 or 3 speakers located in different locations from the orginal vocalist with a different dispersion pattern than the orginal vocalist in that room.Maybe at best we will be fooled by this "tricking" of our ear/brain system.
(2) The ear/brain has to be the final judge for now because no test can tell us completely what we are going to hear. Richard Heyser was great at tying in some of the measurements methods he was developing(TDS) with the way we perceive sound but there is alot of work to be done to nail down what measurements are going to result in a certain perception of sound.
(3) Basically we have no set standards for recording methods or playback systems.How can we ever expect to achieve great sound from everything when recording equipment and methods as well as playback equipment and playback rooms completely vary from one to the other.It looks almost hopeless that we will ever be able to have recordings that will play on every playback/room system!
(4) The room though necessary(like you said who would want to listen in an anechoic chamber)to me for the most part starts to impair the speakers responce as it was designed.It alters the amplitude and timing of the frequency responce which except for some special circumstance I don't see how they can be corrected but with knowledge of how we hear we can maybe fool the ear/brain into ignoring it or at least liking what we perceive.I see no way we can totally replicate a recording when there are so many uncontrolled variables in this whole process. At best at this time it looks to me like we just as well need to assemble our playback system/room to create that real illusion that connects us with the music thats important to us and except that it simply can't play every recording at this time(Who Knows When If Ever).
(5) I guess my personal preferance is to buy the best equipment I can and treat the room acoustically to do the least damage to what I believe are recordings of the highest quality avaible in the kind of music I chose to listen to. For poorer quality recordings I've attempted to make them listenable by altering there tonal balance through a path not as pure as the one I use for the best recordings which depending on the problems the recordings have this may help but some things just can't be helped.My ultimate goal is to be connected and drawn into the music and to me the recordings and playback rooms are the two weakest links to overcome.Time is to short and I really don't spend much time listening to bad recordings when I've got really good recordings to listen to in this system.Those recordings are better in the car or somewhere their compromises aren't as noticable.
Its late and I've got to go but I would really like to talk about what you had to say when I get a chance.But I do believe the Energy/Time /Frequency as perceived by our ear/brain explaines why you perceive one thing as an improvement or problem even though most measurements may not show any significant difference.We are simply looking in the wrong place for what we are perceiving.
mike
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Mike, PWK wouldn't even put an "L" pad on his creations becuase he didn't trust us cretins(my word not his) to change the sound of them without his instruments. At least that is what I got out of the Dope From Hope Papers. Poor Ole PWK is probably spinning what with people putting JBL311's in his beautiful Klipschorns.
Rick
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Hi rick:
What I meant by my impression that PWK was open to improvement is that if PWK thought he could make a genuine improvement then he would change it but not for the sake of change. As things like recording technology would (catch up) to the Khorn it would allow him to make improvements in his Khorns but the design was so fundamentally correct and good that real improvements were few over all these years. I never had the impression that he chose to do or not do anything because of what it might cost it just had to be a real improvement to him.
I know I read in one of his papers he mentioned if someone thought they had a real improvement they would consider testing it.
Now Please everyone, I didn't know PWK and there is no way I know for sure what he thought I just have these impression from what I've read and the way Klipsch as a company always did business with me. They never tried to sell me anything if it wasn't necessary and often you might get an answer like we changed it in production because it measures slightly better but most people probably wouldn't hear the difference. What a great way for a company to treat their customer and no wonder people stay with klipsch.
To sum it up if you like modifying your Khorn then great. I know I enjoy seeing the ideas people are trying.
But I feel a fundamental truth is unless the room is given proper attention the stock Khorn(or any speaker) isn't reaching its full potential(AS artto's Room Shows so Well) and any modifications want reach their full potential either.
mike
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edwinr said:
I agree with your comment. The room/speaker interaction is not something I fully understand. I know PWK spent most of his life coming to terms with the compromises he had to make to market a commercially viable Klipschorn. In saying that I've no problems in tweaking and tinkering, and I wouldn't think PWK would either
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Hi edwinr:
I get the impressions from reading PWK's works that he was always open to a real improvement.
I agree with you also. I love to tweak and tinker with speakers, amps, isolation devices and all things audio but to me the room is the ultimate place to tweak because anything we do still has to go through the rooms paths to our ears and nowadays the equipment is so good its even more important than ever that we give the room the attention it deserves and must have if we are to really advance.
mike
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"...I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers..."
DeanG asked "What problems?"
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What I've noticed in reading some threads is that people changing Squawker drivers/horns and Tweeters are talking about is improvements in clarity, detail, openness, naturalness,extension etc. Things that artto's Khorns/Room shows the basic Khorn is fully capable of rendering.
My own experience is similar to what I've read of DrWho's. Which I believe supports the idea that the stock drivers/horns are very capable of producing very realistic sound and imaging and we need to be looking more at the room first if we are to achieve the best from them.
Now please! anyone doing modifications "I'm not saying that its not better or not an improvement" it could well be!(But in a well treated/designed room stock Khorns are (Among) The GREATEST Speakers Avaible).I do believe that there are other things happening because when you change these drivers/horns your also playing the room differently and this could also be where some perceptions of improvements are coming from.I'm just saying that Khorns(and all speakers)would benefit from room treatments and if its possible for a person to do so it should be (IMHO) done before modifying the speakers It would be interesting to hear the differences of these well thought out modified Khorns in the same well treated/designed room versus a stock Khorn.
As Mr Klipsch suggested "Since the room is perhaps the second most important or critical entity in achieving good audio, music listeners would do well to expend as much effort on the room as on the selection of the dynamic acoustic elements like loudspeakers".
mike
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Hi jfmacken:
I don't think risers will change what your describing but I do like heresys on the angle risers pointed toward me.Do try moving them in relation to the side and front walls. It's free and might achieve what you want.
First if you like the sound with the eq your using thats what matters. I personally if possible would rather work with speaker/listener placement than use an eq but sometimes we do what we have to.
If you want to try something; play your 1khz tone (and some of the lower freq. while walking around) and then while listening move your head about 1 foot in any direction. in alot of rooms you will hear the sound level rise and fall and the same thing will happen with meter readings.Your hearing/measuring the modal responce of your room. Actually I believe warbletone type test(avaible on some test CDs like sterophile) would be a better way for you to test/listen than single test tones like this.
mike
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DrWho says;
"Anyways, I just realized that I never talked much about the mids and the highs in my review".
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"There was a clarity I've never heard before in the home when listening to the khorns...There was no way to differentiate between a real instrument and the speaker...In fact, I'd argue that the speaker sounds better because a mic was placed in the optimal position for the best balance of all the sounds from the instrument and then I get to sit back further away and enjoy a room filled with that point in space that was recorded. The best term I can come up with is "clear", like looking through newly cleaned glass (the kind your dog will run into because he can't see it either, hehe). Another term that came to mind was "HUGE". The sound was extremely deep and large and powerful and effortless".
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Hey artto:
From a couple of post I've read of yours I assume your KHorns are still stock is this correct?
The reason I ask is because I had mentioned in another thread that I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers aren't really acoustical/room problems. I believe your room is one that proves that the stock drivers/horns are actually capable of very high performance if given a good enviroment and thus the first thing people wanting to upgrade their sound isn't swapping drivers/horns but instead (if things permit) treating their rooms would be the the best choice.Especially some form of diffusion can go along ways toward clearing up edginess and increasing detail in the Squawker/tweeter range.At least if treatments are done first and improvements are still felt to be needed you would atleast be able to hear any improvements better.
mike -
Thanks for the replies artto:
I've observed what you said also about diffusors being to close to you and causing problems on the back wall as well as if the side walls are close you can definitly get some unpleasent coloration interference.Thats what got me to wondering about trying to delay some of the reflections to the listener by maybe redirecting them to a later point in time trying to simulate a larger space.I do realise their are problems with this since there is no way I can truely simulate a larger space full bandwidth since any panel/diffusor/absorber are bandwidth limited so I can see how some frequency would be delayed and some wouldn't which will probably just create a different coloration.I see that a small room is a limitation that can never be fully overcome (I'm trying to find ways to manipulate the room to give the room higher resolution and natural sound than its size will permit untreated) as compared to a more ideal sized listening room.I'm just trying to optimize the room I have to live with at this time.Thats why for me alot of trial and error is necessary because I can't be sure what the brain is going to accept in my situation.
Again thanks for the thoughts artto its nice to talk to someone about these things because I've not met anyone around here that seems to even be aware or cares about these acoustical things.
mike
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DrWho
Your observation on recording qualties is dead on and I don't think it will change for an extremely long time if ever.How frustrating when a recording sounds pretty good on a car radio say only to sound unlistenable on a really good system.
So what can we do about it if we want realistic reproduction when the recordings vary all over the place?
There are times when I've had to use a Dynaco Pass preamp with tone controls just to be able to get listenable sound on some recordings that I or friends want to hear.
I've decided at this point in time to setup my system to play recordings that are recorded with great care to capture a realistic sound and then if necessary alter its sound with the Dynaco Preamp when recordings need help to sound good. I'd guess an equalizer with several programble settings would be better for this purpose.
mike
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----------------On 7/31/2004 4:10:50 PM jfmacken wrote:Strange. I picked up a spl meter and did some graphs. Oddly enough, my woofer is down about 6 db in the 400-700 hz range, when playing at 100db (at 1k). Simply using an eq seems to really help things out though. If I were to attenuate both the mid and tweeter (to hear the woofer more), I would probably end up with an excess of db in the sub-300hz region. I have no idea how the room acoustics factor in this particular area, but the eq seems to be doing the job!----------------
jfmacken
Just an idea but are your speakers located on stands or the floor? How far from the center of the woofer to the floor/sidewall/frontwall are they?
Wavelengths for the 400-700hz are between 2.825'to 1.614' so its possible that you could be getting boundry cancellation effects from the floor/sidewalls/frontwall if your located close to any of them.If you haven't you can try moving the heresy slightly in relation to these boundrys and see how this affects the measurements/sound your getting.
Where is the meter located when your measuring this also? Any reflections close to the meter or your listening postion could cause these readings also.
mike
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Hi trader
I'm pretty sure the heresy woofer you have isn't the electro voice one I believe it has a orange surround.
Also the woofer does have whats called a mud magnet it isn't alnico.
mike
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Let me guess.
The music was very dynamic and life like.
You could here the room acoustics(side/back walls of the recording venues.
Great clarity/detail and vocals that are so realistic!
Soundstage that was very three demisional and a very accurate since of scale!
The system created an emotional connection with the artist's music!!
now I'm DEPRESSED
mike
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Hey artto
You've probably read also that one of the design features of the skyline diffusor is that it virtually eliminates the specular component of the incident sound wave which is suppose to make it ideal for primary 1st reflection points that you want to treat.
I'm using some of the 2'x2'x7" skyline diffusors on my ceiling and side walls. My current room is small so I went with these since they are recommended for situations where the rooms surfaces are close to the listening position which is definitly my situation.I like that they are very light weight for the ceiling use but they are made of expanded polystyrene foam which does make me nervous about maybe damaging them by using them in areas where someone could bump into them. I still need to try these in some different areas of the room to optimize their use but I've been very pleased with the results in my room so far.
One idea I'm thinking of trying since I'm in such a small room is making some slightly angled panels to redirect the 1st reflection points on the side walls into the diffusors in the back part of the room. I believe this would maybe help by dealing with the first reflection point but delaying the diffussion to a later point in time when it would be more beneficial in my smaller room.I'm like you I've not had much success with absorption at these points it just seems to create an unnatural tonal balance and can seem to suck the life out of the music. Have you tried anything like this?
By the way have you also noticed the shape optimized diffusors that RPG are developing now. It looks to me like they have basically concave and convex curves arayed on an arc shape.Kind of like a wavey poly.
mike
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----------------On 7/30/2004 6:46:26 PM artto wrote:No I haven't Mike. But I have read some of their "papers". Is this book available on Amazon or anything? Kinda pricey.----------------
Yes thats how I felt.
Its available on Amazon($149 to $159) and signed copys from RPG but I don't know at what cost.
I'd sure like to see a copy to see how much information about diffusers and small room acoustics was in it before spending that much.
thanks artto
mike
Slightly Shocking
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
kuisis
Like Gil said this could be a real safety issue and you should get it checked for how much AC voltage to earth ground exist.
If the power transformer(internally)or AC wiring has developed leakage(short) to the scott chassis it would be possible to get shocked when touching the chassis/faceplate.
Any good electronic repair shops should be able to run an AC Leakage Current test for you.
Its a test that should be ran on any equipment after being serviced.
Also never use a cheater plug on a television if it has a two prong AC cord with one blade thats wider because alot of TV's have what called a Hot Chassis and by reversing the AC plug you can put 120v AC on external points like Antenna terminals and audio input/output jacks!
mike