chops

Yeah, whatever. Fritz, It's 24dB linkwitz with time alignment and CD correction.

How do you figure? If the Jube bass bin is crossed low enough and the left and right channels can play low enough to blend in, imaging should be just fine if set up properly. I definately wouldn't say a step backwards. Please note, I'm not arguing, just trying to understand why you said what you said. []

Nevermind. I'm going the active route.

Thanks Fritz. No, that value does not factor in the 1mH from the K33. And yes, I saw your other post, but I don't think I'm gonna worry about the swamping resistor for now. Since I'm running SS amplification, I doubt it will really be worth the hassle. It would be nice, but until I get some clarification on that as well, I'm going to hold off with it in my design.

Now see, it's comments like this that upset me and eventually get me pissed. If you're going to write something like that, then why not give an explination for the comment instead of leaving me hanging? You're right in a way though. It is a "I get it don't get it kind of thing" because of the simple fact that EVERY time I make mention of the bypass cap and ask for clarification, the question gets ignored or avoided and I get a drawn out answer for something I didn't even ask about or given an option that I have made clear that I DON'T want. I guess I'll have to bother Al K about this matter, since I can never get any straight answers elsewhere. At least Al finds the time to site down and give a thorough answer and doesn't try to talk me out of something.

So this is what I think I'm gonna build for my speakers. It will be a 1st order, 775Hz 2-way design. Very simple and staight forward. Items shown below are for 1 network only. Also, since one of the Altec 902s measures 6.1 ohms and the other one measures 6.7 ohms, I averaged it out to 6.4 ohms x 8 (T2A autoformer tap #2) which would make the final impedance 51.2 ohms. 1) Alpha Core Goertz 1.2mH 12 AWG Copper Foil Inductor 1) 3636 Audio Autotransformer 1) Hovland Musicap 4uF 100V And once I get some kind of approval on this autoformer bypass cap trick... This time, sized for the straight 6.4 ohm impedance of the 902 driver (hence bypassing the autoformer) at 22.5kHz. 1) Hovland Musicap 1uF 100V and 0.1uF 600V Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

Michael, I know exactly where you're coming from. If you remember, when I fist started back here on the forum back in March, I started a thread called "Klipsch Modding - Has it gone too far?" Well since then, I have done a lot, and I do mean A LOT of reading, researching, going back to old threads from years ago, and learning a bunch of great stuff along the way. I have done upgrades, I have done tweaks, and I have done modifications, all of which I might add can be completely and totally reversed if need be. Through the last several months, I have gone from bone stock Klipsch Cornwalls to now something I wouldn't even consider Klipsch. For all practical purposes, they are no longer Klipsch speakers. The only thing that has remained the same is the cabinets and K33-E drivers. The K-55V squawker, K-600 horn, K77 tweeter and stock Type B networks are out of the equation. The Type B network has be shifted around so much, that it's no longer considered a Type B, or Type CS II. I don't know what you would call it, but it is now running in 2-way mode. Actually, I take that back. It's not even a 2-way, because the ONLY thing being crossed over on it is the Altec 902-8B driver at 800Hz. I now have the K33-E doubled up on the main input taps running fullrange, which the 2.5mH inductor just sitting there not hooked up to anything. And that's the other thing, I ditched the K55/K-600 and K77/CT125 in favor of the Altec 902-8B driver and Altec 511B horn. So why did I do this to these wonderful Cornwalls? Because to me, my current setup sounds a heck of a lot better than the stock Cornwalls ever could. Actually my brother jt1stcav also agrees, as does my other brother! And trust me, they don't care if they hurt my feelings or not. If they didn't think it sounded good, they'd tell me in a heartbeat! But anyway, to get to my point. I was thinking the same way you are. (obviously, just read that thread of mine that I mentioned) But after going through pages and pages of excellent information on the forum, plus conversing with a lot of very knowledgable members and picking their brains like you wouldn't believe, AND listening to what my ears have been telling me, I am where I'm at now with my speakers. I have totally contradicted myself from that thread I started several months back and am right in the middle of doing exactly what other are doing and that I was complaining about! It all boils down to personal prefference and how far you're willing to go to get what you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and someone shouldn't be ridiculed because of what they believe in as far as loudspeaker choices are concerned. If I ONLY did enough research to learn about replacing the old caps in my Type B networks and that's it, then I'd be perfectly happy with the stock Cornwalls and refreshed networks. but after hearing what that did for the sound, I grew hungry for more and craved even better results, hence my now 2-way Cornwall/Altec design. And the real kicker to this little story is, I'm not even done yet!! And as for all of the great guys on here who offer their great services, FREE information and guidance (Bob, Al K, Dean, jc, NOS, etc, etc, etc - you all know who you are), I have nothing but total respect for these guys and am very greatful and appreciative for what they have done for me. Anyway, I just thought I'd put that out on the table. To each his own. [] Charles

Thanks for that PDF file Bob! Having the 1dB steps is great. I'll sure be buying a couple of those from you soon. []

I don't understand the "need" for people to post stupid crap that's totally unrelated to the subject at hand. [:@] Dean, Al, someone... What would happen if I took one of these 2uF motor run caps to bypass the autoformer and connected it straight to the 902 driver (6.4 ohms - 8 ohms) from the main input while the 902 is still getting its main signal through the autoformer? Would this give me the already 800Hz crossover point attenuated -9dB via the autoformer PLUS a 10kHz - 12kHz unattenuated secondary crossover point to help the 902's output above 10kHz? If so, which lead on the 902 would I connect the 2uF cap to, + or - due to the phase reversal of the cap? Here's a small diagram I just drew up to help explain what I'm getting at...

?? BTW, you have mail! []

I don't know... I thought you did a pretty good job of explaining it. I think I have a pretty good idea on how it works now. But I believe your comment above was directed towards someone else and not me. I first learned about step-up and step-down transformers through my father when he was rebuilding and customising the rectifier for the pipe organ. Hey, you have to convert some of that 220V A/C to 15V D/C somehow! [] See, the only thing in the pipe organ that uses 220V is the 3/4 horse blower and main breaker box. Everything else on the organ runs off of 15V D/C. Then, when I won my very first auction on eBay over 8 years ago, I learned about output autoformers on my new (to me) McIntosh MC250 amp. Actually, I guess those on the Mac amps would be considered "constant impedance" transformers, since they make the amplifier see only one impedance, no matter if you connect a 4, 8, or 16 ohm loudspeaker to it. Dean, if you could PM me your phone #, I might give you a jingle on Tuesday. Just let me know when would be a good time to call. Thanks, Charles

LOL! That's bad if someone notices something like that! [] BTW, I think I've figured out what Shawn was talking about in regards to bypassing the autoformer with a cap. If this online calculator is somewhat right, I would need a 0.12uF cap to get a 20kHz crossover point. I would then connect this from the main (+) input lead on the network to the (+) lead on the 902 along with the one coming from the autoformer. It's kinda like a reversed bandpass filter, allowing freqs to "seep" back into the 902, but this time from the extreme top end down at a -6dB slope which should bring up the level of the 902 on the top end. Holy cow, did I confuse anyone there?! If you followed that, does that sound right to you? I follow it. not having a drawing I have to ask, would the same effect occur if you use your values to bypass the autoformer at the autoformer? there were some discussions earlier today with Al, and he introudced some really high ohms values that are involved in the autoformer in the way the autformer does its buisness. your approach is intresting...if you wanted to widen the parametrics of your 6db slope, you could move the crossover point (larger value). I'm not sure what you about bypassing the autoformer at the autoformer. [8-)] But yeah, I'm really wishing Al or Dean would come on here and explain and/or walk me through this little trick. I'd really like to try it to see if it does what I want it to. I would also like to know if I am really running the 902 at 800Hz right now or not also, being that I switched over to the 3uF cap. Al, Dean... hint, hint... []

have you seen my 2360's ..??? Can you PLEASE take your conversation elsewhere?!

LOL! That's bad if someone notices something like that! [] BTW, I think I've figured out what Shawn was talking about in regards to bypassing the autoformer with a cap. If this online calculator is somewhat right, I would need a 0.12uF cap to get a 20kHz crossover point. I would then connect this from the main (+) input lead on the network to the (+) lead on the 902 along with the one coming from the autoformer. It's kinda like a reversed bandpass filter, allowing freqs to "seep" back into the 902, but this time from the extreme top end down at a -6dB slope which should bring up the level of the 902 on the top end. Holy cow, did I confuse anyone there?! If you followed that, does that sound right to you? Would these be what I'd be looking for if I were to do this? Again, if that value of 0.12uF is correct, I would need 1) 0.10uF and 2) 0.01uF caps wired in parallel to get to the needed value, which would in turn get me to 20kHz? http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=70

LOL! That's bad if someone notices something like that! [] BTW, I think I've figured out what Shawn was talking about in regards to bypassing the autoformer with a cap. If this online calculator is somewhat right, I would need a 0.12uF cap to get a 20kHz crossover point. I would then connect this from the main (+) input lead on the network to the (+) lead on the 902 along with the one coming from the autoformer. It's kinda like a reversed bandpass filter, allowing freqs to "seep" back into the 902, but this time from the extreme top end down at a -6dB slope which should bring up the level of the 902 on the top end. Holy cow, did I confuse anyone there?! If you followed that, does that sound right to you?

BTW, if you notice, there's a +2dB increase in output by letting the K33 run fullrange.

I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure on how to go about doing it. I'll have to bother Dean or Al for that trick. Thanks Shawn! [] Speaking of tricks, I just tried something to see how it works. At the moment, I have mixed feelings over the change. There seems to be a little more midrange, but whether that's a good thing or not is a different story. Also, due to the raise in midrange, the treble is now pushed back further again. Oh, I guess I should let you guys know what I did! That would help! LOL [] Anyway, I shut down the system and did a quick rewire of the network. I moved the 902 over to the 3uF cap which I think should put it up around a 800Hz crossover point. Then, since I don't have any 1.3mH inductors laying around, I connected the K33s directly to the inputs so they get a full signal and roll off naturally. I also took a few more readings and pics of the network mods.... And here's the plots. 1) This is before the change. 2.5mH to K33 / 4uF to 902 - Pink Noise - Sweet Spot - Stereo - +2dB boost at 10kHz 2) This is after the change. K33 run flat out / 3uF to 902 - Pink Noise - Sweet Spot - Stereo - +2dB boost at 10kHz This is a high res. plot of the left channel @ 1m - Pink Noise - +2dB boost at 10kHz

Why are there 2 totally unrelated conversations going on in 1 thread?

After thinking about this more and looking at some of my plots from a couple days ago, this is actually kind of confirmed! With the 2.5mH inductor on the K33, that puts it somewhere near 382Hz. The 4uF cap on the 902 puts it up right around 600Hz. That would mean there would be a dip in the response between those two crossover points, right? (382Hz - 600Hz) Now look at the plot I took the other day and you'll see a dip in the response between 200Hz and 600Hz! Am I getting close to something here or am I just going nuts?!

Also, here's a little snip from one of the PMs I got from Bob a while back concerning the K33 and/or Bob's own CT1526 drivers.... " Charles, Factory traces I have show the woofers dropping off very steeply after about 1500 hz. That is a raw woofer with no inductor. With the inductor, it should be done before 1 khz. My CW1526 is essentially identical in performance to the Pre-1985 K-33E." Now the only question that remains is how cleanly does the K33 sound up that high? In Al K's notes, didn't he say there were rumors of PWK even running the K33 full out without an inductor at all? Not that I would do this because it would defeat the purpose of getting these 902 drivers for their midrange at that point.

Of course I read it! [] BTW, the diagram is designed for a 600Hz HP/LP filter. However, in a recent email from another member, I was reminded that to get a proper (closer) value on the woofer end, I should enter the K33 as a 6 ohm load, similar to what I think Al K does with his networks. In fact, I remember Al saying something that even PWK got the woofer inductor wrong on most of the networks because he left out the 1mH inductance of the K33's voice coil. If this is true, and you set up one of those online calculators for a 1st order Butterworth filter, and enter 6 ohms for the woofer at 600Hz, the inductor value comes out to be 1.59mH. Add that to the K33's 1mH and you now basically have the 2.5mH inductor that comes on the Type B network. So if this is the case, the actual crossover point in the Type B network for the K33 is more like 382Hz, again at 6 ohms, 1st order. As for the 7500Hz rolloff of the horn, wasn't that referring to the 811B? I can't remember right now. But anyway, the top end extension isn't all that bad now since I raised the crossover point back up to the stock 600Hz. Honestly, I can't believe how HUGE of an improvement it made on the top end. If worse comes to worse, isn't there some kind of circuit that can be designed into the crossover to help with the top end? I think someone mentioned something about using a cap to bypass the autoformer?? [:^)]

So just go with a simple 1st or 2nd order? What about using the two reisitors instead of the autoformer? Any advantages there other than saving a little money?

Dean, Al, jc, Bob, whoever, What do you think about this? I'm sure the values are way off, but it's the best I can do with those online calcs. I entered the K33 as 3.4 ohms (CT1526 specs) and 902 as 6.4 ohms (averaged between 6.1 and 6.7 ohms of both drivers). Also, this design would completely eliminate the autoformer and still attenuate the 902 the desired -9dB. And yes, I know I changed my mind again from a 3rd order to now a 6th order. If someone could possibly work out the corrected values, that would be excellent! []

Got it! Gonna go read it now. []

Terry, Trust me, IF I do decide to remove the loading caps, I'll take great caution with the drivers. However, I think I have made up my mind on going with a 3rd order low and high pass filter. It's now just a matter of finding a way of coming up with the proper component values that I need for a 600Hz crossover point. This is where I'm running into a brick wall at the moment. BTW, I finally got around to answering your emails this morning. [] Charles