thirdeye

Right, I guess my quick explanation was not enough, but I was just simply answering why 400 watts, and just tried to simplify, well you would be running about that if you want the very high current capability and cheaper amps that can withstand 2 ohm impeadance, which absolutly makes these klipsch or any high efficiency speaker sound smoother in the highs, and drives the bass with much more control and authority with higher current in my experiance again unless you buy a CODA or Krell which will give you something in the 75-100 watt per channel, and give you 100 amps of current still per channel and you will pay for it, I know of no others, but they could be out there, from what I understand the 7's will drop to somewhere in the 2.5 ohm range, .. .By the way I borrowed a sunfire 300 watt per channel signature model, it was around 2200.00 or something like that, and it was horrible with the 7's, sounded absolutly anemic I opened it up and it is a very cheap amplifier under the polished chassis, do not let the fancy meter and gold logo fool you, then I borrowed a 200 watt per FORTE 4A and it was about 400.00 used, not to mention the forte just blew the sunfire away but it was built 10 times better and far more musical in the end, plus 100 watts per channel less, but after hearing that I wanted much more, so I went to monos.

zekey, drove my first point home.... Imperfectcircle, your belief and and question is valid, Jjust because of the impeadance drop in the 7's I found the larger amp made bigger difference than a 55watt we had on hand , But mainly those 7's take a SH^Tload of Current to get them at the most controlled sound, so For the Easiest explanation as to why 400 watts with a 101db efficient speaker? I guess you might need a high watt cheaper amp to produce High current and low impeadance is all.

The classics are the best in the legacy range I believe, maybe the whispers are far up, but I know I prefer the classics over the Focus 20/20's

I agree strabo, or go with used K-horns, or something to that nature if you wish to stay with klipsch and get the better midrange.

In my opinion this discussion turned into whos ears are better not speakers... I am not downing the 7's but they were too forward, might just be the tone of the speakers, but I love the tone of the K-horns, I have very accute hearing and the slightest little Hiss from my refrigerator or a fan in the audio room will drive me nuts. The Rf-7's in my case may just be a little too much of a good thing... thats okay I'm not a purist anymore either because I can't stand even the 4000.00 preamp I had because it had no tone controls, some recordings need help and instead of just chalking everything up to not being perfect, I rather fix it even if its not the right way in the audiophile community. I do know however the 7's are a perfect Movie speaker, surround sound driven definatly, and I would not compete on that level with anything against them for the money, they are more efficient and have that upper tinge to them that definatly helps with Dull movie soundtracks and many just suck, even in dolby or DTS, Especially voice, there would be very few times somebody in the room would go "What did they just say?" with the 7's no doubt, but to me I did not want that kinda money invested into my surround system, I have a full 7.1 Klipsch surround system in another room and with movies, I could care less it sounds fine with any horns to me. My 2 Channel I found I needed something a little less Open, Dynamic or whatever other words are used for the 7's. But they were designed to be in a system with a Sub and surround sound so some may have a hard time finding what they need in them for a 2 channel, I'll Just leave it at that.

What are you replacing them with? Welcome to the darkside lord vader...

tillmbil The only way the cornwall will compete with the 5's on bass is if you have them dead in the corner angled, just like a K-horn from my experiance, but put the 5's about 20" off the backwall and the back corner from the sidewall about 15-16" with about a 1.5" toe in, which would put your front corner about 17.5" from the sidewall this would be a good measurement if your sidwalls are about 15ft apart, Also, all the reference series I have heard are best when they are on an Angle, so the front is on the spikes and the back feet are with just the little rubber feet or none at all so that it slopes back, try it trust me... I think they will beat the cornwalls overall you may be suprised, but I can guarantee the punch will be much deeper and faster from the 5's. Hey, by the way great little turntable the mmf7, I have one and love it, near perfect, I almost went up to the nottingham which has a slight edge but not without a very expensive cartridge, and I only paid 400.00 for the mmf7!

Actually Not really, I did not get a lot of time with the Rf5's .. I did get a little of them at a dealer, but not extensivley at home like the others... Not sure if the 5's have the same driver as the 7's horn to be honest, but I do believe the 5's share the exact same drivers that were in the discontinued 3's, the 8" that is. I wanted to get a hold of 5's as my thoughts are in line with yours and they might be a very good medium for the buck vs. the 7's... However the 3's, 5's, 7's were all of the same series, just the 3's got replaced by the 35's but everything is a different animal in the 35's, totally new drivers, cabinetry, and damping material inside, and the crossovers... the 35's vs. the 3's do sound a little more refined(that stupid word, but ....) Kinda smoother in the high's, but the 3's almost were a little muddier, not bad but you get the point. Now with the 3's new crossover they easily best the 35's... The 3's have old type Yellow foam like Carpet padding in them for damping material, the newer reference series have Egg crate gray audio style damping, not sure it makes any kinda difference but thats what is going on, Also the newer stuff uses the horn intergrated right into the baffle of the front cabinet, the 3's, 5's , 7's are of the old style horns, which are just a single unit as a conventional horn that screws in and out just like you think it would... The cabinet is more Finished and a little bit more solid on the 35's than the 3's or 7's I have pulled apart, slightly different and more finished construction, yes refined.

Sorry, I know it was not meant as an attack in any kinda direct way, just found it as a good excuse to give my assessment of the parts... I guess if we all believed in mark levinson amps being better sounding than anything on the planet vs. trying the correct stuff for the situation nobody would know that there are better amps and cheaper for a specific use.. same with anything in audio. In my opinion same with many of klipschs lower tier speakers beating out the bigger brothers.

As the attack was made I will fire back, Solen sounded better than the Hovlands in this circuit, for the Bass... It also is unnecessary to have something like that in the bass circuit we found no real difference, also the Hovlands sound terrible to me in the klipsch horn circuit as I learned my lesson with a network Dean built me and really did not like the character at all to dry , and YES SIR jensens are the BEST I have heard and just installed them in my Cary amp, but Unfortunatly the values needed in the Circuit for the 3's were not available from where I found them, and would be about the size of Coffee cans if they were made... Now beyond that, Trust me these suckers FAR, FAR surpase in sound and quality of what klipsch had in there believe me, not even close.. Hell klipsch probably pays about 3 dollars total for the cheap bobbin inductors and the 12 cent capacitors that were used, I can find them at parts express believe it or not. Now all that being said, Yes indeed we might pull out the old Theta's or Jensens and Stack the caps like a bypass stack to hit the values not available, but this will get very expensive, and possibly not a huge improvement due to the character of how smooth and detailed the speaker is right now and the fact if you have ever heard the Copper Ribbon Inductors from Alpha, Forget it, I had inductors that cost 4 times the price of these which were 10 or 8 gauge from North creek music and these are just nicer in my opinion. Anyway thanks for the concern, but truth is Solens work very Well especially in a speaker of this caliber, now I would again emphasis sure, we could get a warmer sound with the jensens, but not sure its what we were looking for right now, and we wanted to simply see if the circuit worked all together, well it did, and I would say its 100 times better and made a 1000.00 pair of speakers sound like a 7000.00 pair.. but I really want to get a hold of the "Zu Definitions" they look like the speaker to be had if I am gonna spend any more money to go up, even the K-horns modified at 8000.00 a pair I do not think can compete. As for the tearing apart the 35's to trace and find values, I decided that its just easier to test on the 3's and it is worth it, but am not going to get into the 35's for now, and as for the 7's modifying the circuit If I remember it just had far to many components and would be pretty hi cost I don't remember though,,,,, So the 7's at that point just go out of limit in what they are worth to me personally. I am just having fun on the thread, I take nothing to serious, just sound, and I have found the mistakes with klipsch for my personal taste, so you guys might be on a different klipsch planet :+)

Don't get me wrong my comparisons were on other klipsch, but I would never buy paradigm's... I tried them actually side by side with klipsch anything and talk about Supressed/compressed sound. Yeah the 7's are better than the large paradigm towers and I heard them head to head at a local dealer.

For the money and material the 7's are pretty decent, but I find the 35's far better, I owned Cornwalls, 7's, & 35's the 35's are my favorite, and sound much more smooth than the 7's with the klipsch characteristic.... I just put a pair of fairly Extreme Crossovers replacing the ones in my friends pair of RF3's this week, they consisted of Alpha core goertz Inductors(12ga), Solen fast caps througout, and an eagle resistor these were all Exaclty the same values as the original cheap computer grade crossovers yanked out of the 3's, but these would not fit internally in the speaker so they are outboard and now these speakers just dominate any of these speakers, I wish I could do it to my 35's but being currently in production klipsch will not give me the schematic as they did give me it for the 3's, sure you could do the same treatment to the 7's but not sure it will have the same smooth and tame results with great detail and not Blaring at you. Funny thing is the 3's became even more efficient, Bass we swear went from the Single Note 37hz to a like 3 Layer sounding bass down to the low 30's at least, very much opened these suckers up, and they did give us a reminder of the 7's but with far less forwardness. P.S. I could be wrong "Imperfectcircle" But from your name I have a pretty good guess I listen very similar as you, and APC has some of the best recordings ever so take refinement from people with a grain of salt.

Okay, Pay a decent 25 per hour to our American worker to assemble a BOX (times) 2 (which I would be very surprised if in "hope" due to the extreme cheap cost of living, well in comparison to chicago where I am at, they would pay more than even 15 per hour which is all a warehouse speaker assembler would get here), possibly the absolute most physically easy box that Klipsch will produce is the CORNWALL III, a pair of RB-75's for example would take double the time and they are 1/4 the size or less. So it cost you about 50 bucks to pay labor on the box's, and about 25 dollars of material, and nobody can say otherwise because these things cost nothing to produce, I buy and build MDF all the time, now put in some R&D time and Cheap crossovers, and 6 drivers that cost maybe 30 dollars a piece for klipsch to produce and you have about a 500 or less with packaging for these pairs. Triple that cost to the dealer, so cost would be about 1500.00 and Retail about 2400-2500.00 but would go for about 2100.00 a pair. I worked back when the KLF series was hot, and yes the cabinets were garbage it was a decent speaker with dual 10's and a single horn with cheap crossovers, I believe our cost on like the klf-10 was about 410.00 a pair, retail was around 1100.00 or something. sold for about 900.00.... Bottom line being the Hersey and and cornwall are gonna absolutly be the easiest klipsch speakers to build, they could also make them the most money, and being any of us can go to parts express and buy a 15" pretty good driver for about 50.00 I don't see where I am to far off on this. Klipsch's problem will be This, it is a BIG flat Box, not slim & fancy, and the market will have a hard time with that, ASIA LOVES these, they are much more into the Hi-end Super efficient Speakers, Such as Avantgarde, Zu (which I want) and several other Eye-sores... We in the Overweight Overpriced america Like our Speakers and Home theater systems Slimmer than us.... And not to mention, I have heard several of the klipsch cabinets, I think even my 35's are sourced from china anyway, and possibly the horn assembly's for all we know, so go ahead and cut your cost further if you want. Okay 2499.00 a pair

How MUCH!!!!! Excessive, thats rediculous I don't care legend or not, 4000.00 a pair? MAybe 2500.00. They better be in Birds eye maple finish, with Focal multi-magnet 15" drivers and back to Metal horns not plastic, with very nice routed corners on the cabinets for that scratch. Oh and a custom Speaker stand to get those suckers up to the Audiophile supposed Height of today vs. the early 80's. Hell maybe throw in Decent Capacitors not the computer crap mass produced, then we will talk. Okay, Pay a decent 25 per hour to our American worker to assemble a BOX times 2(which I would be very surprised if in "hope" due to the extreme cheap cost of living well in comparison to chicago where I am at, they would pay more than even 15 per hour which is all a warehouse speaker assembler would get here), possibly the absolute most physically easy box that Klipsch will produce is the CORNWALL III, a pair of RB-75's would take double the time and they are 1/4 the size or less. So it cost you about 50 bucks to pay labor on the box, and about 20 dollars of material, and nobody can say otherwise because these things cost nothing to produce I buy and build MDF all the time, now put in some R&D time and Cheap crossovers, and 6 drivers that cost maybe 30 dollars a piece for klipsch to produce and you have about a 500 or less with packaging into these pairs. Triple that cost to the dealer, so cost would be about 1500.00 and Retail about 2400-2500.00 but would go for about 2100.00 a pair. I worked back when the KLF series was hot, and yes the cabinets were garbage it was a decent speaker with dual 10's and a single horn with cheap crossovers, I believe our cost on like the klf-10 was about 410.00 a pair, retail was around 1100.00 or something. sold for about 900.00.... Bottom line being the Hersey and and cornwall are gonna absolutly be the easiest klipsch speakers to build, they could also make them the most money, and being any of us can go to parts express and buy a 15" pretty good driver for about 50.00 I don't see where I am to far off on this. Klipsch's problem will be This is a BIG flat Box, not slim fancy, and the market will have a hard time with that, ASIA LOVES these, they are much more into the Hi-end Super efficient Speakers, Such as Avantgarde, Zu (which I want) and several other Eye-sores... We in the Overweight Overpriced america Like our Speakers and Home theater systems Slimmer than us.... And not to mention, I have heard several of the klipsch cabinets, I think even my 35's are sourced from china anyway, and possibly the horn assembly's for all we know, so go ahead and cut your cost further if you want.

Hmm, pretty much the basic list is all here, but for the best Living and playing drummer today, as stated by mr. Neal Peart, the only soul that is heir to the thrown Danny Carey "Tool" , the man is absolutely the most complex and accomplished today. I've seen most of the big bands mentioned here and more, lots of heavy metal, super speed, and just excellent rythm bands, but forget it, when danny and tool hit the stage almost nobody comes close accept when I saw Floyd, but this is very different music emotionally and very off timing. http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Danny_Carey.html

Very interesting, depends on the sound you want, but for me 2 channel, no subs, No surround sound, the 3 series worked better is all I am saying. Or make it very simple and get a capable preamp with some tone adjustments, or go the way of expensive crossovers, Cables, room treatments and everything else to tune them in and hope for the best. But then again I love Avantgarde Duo's and to some guys they sound like crap. By the way I have had DeanG crossovers for my Cornwalls, custom made for me!! But we used the Hovland Caps and I really never liked the Dry sound with the Cornwalls in the end, so I guess its the pair of ears on the other end that matters vs. us all figuring out which equipment is best, Oh well. Its all about music and fun.

Glare in my case came from the directional character of the horn used with the pro compression driver, fairly sharp... but I guess it is a type of acoustical distortion of the 7's yes, Ie. the room, placement etc.., but definatly was not an electrical distortion in my case, so my point stands sorry. And No doubt in the world Tube amps are far more softer clipping and softer distortion character, and far more forgiving in certain situations, but some of the best solid state at 50 db or 120 db will not distort the signal, but it will also not overcome the physical acoustic problems of a speaker or the room, which I have found first hand in my swapping of components.

See if you can borrow one to audition.

Well I personally never heard distortion, but they were very forward sounding or best explanation I can give is "Glare" that is not apparent in either the 35's or the K-horns with decent amplification, also the K-horns and 35's can dissapear, but I can definatly point out the 7's with all of the next to each other behind a curtain, you can just tell there is a horn in your face and its hard to get past it sometimes. Its possible though with the extreme efficiency of the 7's that the sound thinner at lower levels with solid state due to it takes some decent current to drive dual 10's, and some amps may not produce that kinda current at the low level... maybe class A or digital amps help that, but some people may not go the 8watt tube route and never get that super sweet sound or style. So my simple solution is an eq of some sort to tame the 7's.

In my complete honesty I had the RF-7's for about 6 weeks, trying everything to get away from the exact problems you are haveing, I bought 1000.00 in Bass traps, it helps but does not solve, and tamed them slightly with Very hi-current amplifiers, 100 amps per channel to be exact, but never found them to get completly balanced... I FORCED my friend to bring his RF-3's to Go head to head, and the 3's Were far smoother responce, Way more balanced with excellent bottom end, we thought what the hell man, we have a far bigger speaker and it should just add to the sound above the RF-3's right? Well it never ended up that way, the 7's were a Bigger sounding speaker but nowhere near the balance the 3's had, so we chalked it up to Burn in, Ran the 7's for about 3 weeks straight on a music signal and it helped but again the 3's just slaughtered them for the cost difference. #1- If you want the 7's in your system then the only way we found a fix to get them close to what you want is a Mcintosh Preamp with 5 band EQ, and loudness adjustment, and possibly a tube amp to back it up, but if you have the Mac you can use solid state with good results, #3- the 35's vs. the 3's are very close, but with a slight edge to the 35's in overall clearity but nothing to really be concerned with. And well the 35's have a little more tight cabinet finish and in some opinions probably are prettier overall. #4- I am not bashing the 7's I really wanted them to work and went on a lot of advice here from the forum but never could get them to really make me go WOW when I turned them on, I went with the 35's and for the money never looked back and really never miss anything about the 7's and everytime the size of the 35's Shock me with the perfect sound.. #5 In my Opinion the only 2 speakers that I would buy from klipsch in the current lineup for 2 Channel are the 35's and Yes the K-horns, which Also beat the 7's by Far in balance and yes have a little bigger sound then the 35's of course but I could not swing the budget or the have open corners for now, but bottom line I say go 35's or go all the way to the K-horns. #6- I considered the Crossover upgrades and yes they could help a lot I am sure, but for the money and the hassle I would go with used K-horns.. Never does the horns on the 35's sound Harsh, they stay very dynamic, very high volume with excellent huge sound. This is my opinion and sure I will get flack for it, but for those few that can not make the 7's work out, after doing everything but tearing them apart and putting in new crossovers maybe Equalize them. Sorry for the long post. Oh and yes the Placement is absolutly key, possibly the biggest factor in getting the 7's to sound right in any room, but also the room could just be the problem... I have the 35's 2ft off the back wall and the bass is earth shaking, and about 15" off the sidewalls to the back of the speaker, and 16.5" to the front of the speaker, so a Toe in of 1.5" if that makes sense, the room is 24ft X 14.5ft, and this is the best I could get it.

I would like to hear a pair, but obviously out of production... Anyone got some? 20's , 30's, 10's whatever.

Honestly because I wanted to Pre build and price it out before pulling it apart if possible. get an idea on values and what to use is all, but if its not possible then its not. Also, I did take a quick look a few months back and not all the values were stated right on the parts, and if they were they were flipped upsidedown, so in an effort to not tear anything apart to find out I came here to see if someone knew. Thanks

Hello, I need to get a hold of the crossover scheme with values for the Rf35 Towers....I would like to build outboard crossovers to try out and dump the mickey mouse parts inside possibly. Also do you guys think that using Alpha Core ribbon type inductors will mate well with these types of drivers or stick with the standard magnet wire type inductors? Thanks

Sold...

It is by Far better... I put it against M&K 850.00 sub and Velodyne 12" both were not nearly as good build quality and neither were as fast and powerfull as the klipsch, that is something I would have not said years ago, but the new digital bash amps and fit and finish of the cermatel drivers are far superior in the mid line Subwoofer costs today vs. all these other manufacturers.