nola
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Yup, was quite busy comparing this weekend. Reason: thinking about an SET amp rather Push-Pull, and to check the condition off my old speakers.
Once life settles down a bit, I might recap one of the x overs and retest. Will likely do one of the Heresy's first due to small size. X over or diaphragm could be the issue with the hard lucK H II. Going to contact Canyonman too
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Thanks for the advice. Who did your x overs, or just new caps / which ones?
Maybe, it is the diaphrams, not the drivers?
Getting clobbered with projects, etc now. So I will likely address
these issues in a few weeks. This past weekend was the last of my "goof off" time
for a while.
The cabinet refinishing was awesome
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******EDITED*******
Pls see 1st post
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***EDITED*****
I had the breaks in the original, but they did not upload. Maybe due to using safari browser too. I will try to redo tomorrow from work; PC Firefox.
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I just posted on comparing speakers and amps. Turns out the hard luck HII has treble issues. Snares, etc
from Krall DVD are muted. Maybe time for new caps, etc afterall.
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***EDITED**** reposted 10/13/2008 am, now with Firefox, on a PC (not Safari PC or Mac).
Sorry, this is long and detailed for anybody that is interested.
I compared 4 amps (McIntosh 2 x MC240; DIY 300B SET, and Outlaw 750 SS) and 4 speaker sets (K horns, Heresy Is and IIs, WF-34).
Testing
conditions: Barry White, Steely Dan Aja, Supertramp on vinyl. CDs and
Krall DVD, mostly old. Main room is 17 x 40 x 14. Subs / rears / center
were off /not used. Speakers were 7-15 ft apart. I was about 6 feet
behind on the floor while listening. Apt was chunk full of boxes due to
perpetual repairs post Hurricanes.Day 1: Bellari
VP-129 hooked directly into Y splitter and 2 amps connected at a time.
(Don't own 3 way splitter). Right channel (only) was played into each
of the tested speakers. Only the right channel of any amp was ever used
(nothing political). For CDs/DVDs, OPPO 981 was similarly hooked up
directly into splitter. It has a volume control allowing me to bypass
pre amp / processor. Here, I found the left channel was better for
testing, go figure.....End
of day 2: CDs / DVDs, to DVD R / L . Phono, VP-129 to video 5 R/L
Outlaw 990 Preamp / processor. Therefore not directly to amps. Y
splitter from pre amp output to form 2 output RCA cables, 1 to each
tested amp. 990 output in stereo mode, sub off. Bellari volume 2/3 -
3/4 max. 990 volume -5 to +2 (max).Elton John in Oz CD, Krall DVD, Dr.John CD,
Tommy-from The Who CD. On OPPO: stereo setting (not 5.1), and sub-No.1. The SET, loaned to me by a tube-o-phile in New Orleans was
DIY,
under 1K in parts, and was slightly better than the MC240s (which I
own) in higher pitched sounds. Overall, I did not consider the
differences to be great. Even with completely different tubes, the
MC240s sounded similar. (And yes, I expect comments about the tubes,
condition, etc. That's expected and wanted ). Never heard a big
diff. in the bass. But rarely got over 90 dB, since I bypassed my
preamp / processor unit. Also, only 1 speaker played at a time on later
tests. 1st tests were in dual mono-and was a mistake- as I could not
hear diffs clearly.
2. Speakers: K horns, Heresy Is - 30 yrs old, H IIs - 20 yrs old, and
WF-34 (only toted 1 of them out to the main room), a few months old.
All caps, x overs, etc are original. (HII issue was a broken wire in
the x over and I soldered it back. Backs of HIIs are loose, but no
rattle heard.) 1 HII had seriously less treble
than any other speaker, though some was there; particularly notable
during brush drums ?snares on Dianna Krall DVD. These passages were the
best at
noting SET vs PP differences. Good HII was less "high" and a bit
bass-ier than HIs. I preferred the overall sound of HI vs HII. Problem
with WF-34 comparison, it was less efficient so not as load on SPL
meter; did not find vol cntl adjuster in time. Also smaller "presence"
of sound. I think due to smaller size vs
Heresys. Overall, did ok, but I preferred HIs, and plan to put them in
the bedroom, in place of the 34s, if I can ever find the space.These
34s were obtained at the Pilgrimmage, and I was told that although
scratched, they were sonically good.Maybe
due to my hearing, the left speaker was always better! Either
that or bizarre room nodes. Mind you, with construction here, quite
possible; and rt K horn was almost "buried".
On the vinyl, day 1, I always listened to 2 speakers, each driven by a
diff
amp, at the same time. Dual mono.
Lots of amp, speaker switching. Final testing: each amp was separately
tested into the left HI, HII, and 34 (last tests with LT K horn, end of
day 2 only). Only DVD/CDs used by
this point, day 1. (Hey, I was at it for 2 days). K horns, 1st tests,
were
always listened to in dual mono, never with A / B ing diff amps in the
same Khorn. I think that was a big mistake.
End of day 2: added Outlaw 750, 5 x 165 solid state amp, about 7 yrs
old. Also, retested vinyl and added Billy Joel Storm Front old CD and
retried Lt K horn.Findings: differences between speakers of the same type, when tested 1
speaker at a time, were greater than differences between amps!!! (Only 1 WF 34 was tested, yup, on the left,)Both
sets of Heresys, when played 1 speaker at a time would distort / clip
and sound awful when over 90 dB on the SPL (not noted on vinyl nor
Krall, as never got that loud). Dr. John CD was almost unbearable. Elton John Live in Oz when loud was no gift either.
However, Billy Joel was fine.Maybe
I need new caps and / or full new X overs....I bought the 2nd MC240
intending to bi amp the K horns. I talked to Popbumper about this.I preferred the HIs vs HIIs. Maybe crossover
and drivers were designed to yield a somewhat different sound. I bought
my used / abused HIIs recently. They were cheap, but busted. As noted, 1 still "ain't
right". However, as they are only intended to be surrounds, they are ok
for that purpose, even now. I would only pay a small premium for an HI
over an HII, not over $100 on the used market. I do not think I have
heard an H III.
-only 1 WP-34 was toted out.After
Katrina, I briefly compared the Outlaw 750 SS (solid state) amp to the
first McIntosh Push Pull tube amp. I found (in my room, with my
speakers, hearing, etc., that the MC240 was only somewhat better some
of the time with some music. This weekend, it was virtually a dead
heat, with a slight edge to SET. I had to use an old Radio Shack volume
control to lower the volume of the SS amp as it ran about 3-6 dB louder
than the tubes. The vol cntl was at 1 (out of 10). The single K horn
was able to hit about 95 dB with Billy Joel. The Heresy I maxed out
around 92, the 34 never exceeded 90 dB. Whatever diffs I heard 2 yrs
ago were not as obvious tonight in comparing SS to SET and PP amps.Take
home lessons so far: Assuming my speakers are in reasonable shape
(based on all results being reproduced to various degrees in the 34s),
the used Outlaw 990 amp was a steal at +/- $650. Yup, the tubes were a
bit better-sometimes-and at a much higher cost. MC240s go upwards of
1.5K and DIY 300s could run $750 just for ave parts and tubes. I will
try to figure out the tubes used if anyone is interested. I would love
to try this again, on a more limited basis, at somebody else's place.Thanks to the New Orleans area tube usersThe
OPPO DVD player L R stereo plugs were attached to a 2 for 1
"Y" splitter and then run to each of 2 amps to be tested. I also
checked signals when plugged directly into the MC240, without splitter.
Volume was down a touch after splitting. OPPO offers volume of 0-20,
17ish often used. I think one problem, which I have never noted running
5.1 w subs, is that at vol of 19 or 20-which I always have the OPPO set to-max
vol, sounds bad in regular stereo mode. At the end of day 2, all inputs
went to the 990, then out to the amps. No appreciable diffs. I did not
A/B for use of the 990 colorizing/changing the sound, etc.Mid 80s on SPL were common max vols on the HI. MC240s have a dial Gain knob. I had to
move it from 12:00 noon, usual position, down to about 10:00, as the
older MC240 was "stronger" than the SET. SPLs from the 2 MC240s were
usually within 3 dB of each other (older one always louder), fast or
slow SPL setting with C response. So my older 240 always had to be
turned down a bit during testing. I never bothered with testing the
newer 240 vs the SET, as the 240s were so close sonically, once the SPLs were the same.
I had spoken with Popbumper by email and phone and Bob Crites via
email, about my recently purchased HII. They were great. Someone in
town, maybe a few folks can build their own speakers and I will discuss
these issues with them. Due to conferences and being on call, I
probably will not address these issues for a while.I think you are
probably correct about the caps. I will ask locally about completely
new x overs, but thoughts from Forum members are welcome. Never thought
about the diaphragms-they get pricey too, esp on the HIs (when I called
Klipsch after buying the HIIs). One question, the sound from some CDs also got nasty on
the new WF 34.. Just not as bad, maybe because they could not play
as loud as they are less efficient. Also, I listened to 1 speaker at a
time, perhaps some of the nasties would cancel in stereo. Oh well, more
testing to do-Not, I am beat after 2 days of this.I
wanted to post because there is so little info on
comparing amps, Push Pull, SET, solid state. We have a local tube club,
but I never even knew about it until about a month ago. I found out
about it after posting on Bottlehead. I thought about buying a SET amp,
but with the market in a tizzy, held back. Because virtually every
piece of equipment has backers and flamers, I wanted to hear an SET
before taking the plunge. Since I already have 2 MC240s (originally
wanted to bi amp with the 2nd), I am unlikely to buy anything else now,
unless rolling the tubes makes a bigger difference. My SS amp did very
well. I am a bit curious as to why its outlow SPL was about 6dB above
the tubes? If I was new to
tubes, I would definitely consider SET vs PP. In the end, the decision
would be based on reviews from the net and price. Realistically, how
many of us can actually A /B these things the way I have been fortunate
enough to do. I just hope I have performed a fair, even if flawed test.
Perhaps in 2009, after working on the speakers, I might try this again,
on a more limited basis. Thanks to the New Orleans tube group buddy
who lent me his 300B amp, and to Canyonman for his kind offer of listening and comparing at his place :)My friend who lent me the SET might let me roll some tubes too.
More to follow.
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GLA51, I think you earned some Mardi Gras Beads
)Of all the bloody stupid things, my X over had a broken wire. Oh well, I guess that's why I got them so cheap. A really nice tube head here in New Orleans found the problem and even tought me a bit about reading electrical diagrams. He introuced me to the local tube club and even let me try out his DIY 300B amp! A little solder and putting everything back into the cabinets, the HIIs sound nice. Will still have to fix the cabinets though.
You meet some great people this way!
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Congrats on your new 15" baby boy!
In my main room, 17 x 40 x 14, my Pro Audio subs define bass (hehehe.....if only my room was big enough for Colterphoto's bass bins, LOL).
Today my used RSW-15 arrived
My bedroom is about 15-17 x same x 14
It is indeed nice. I am still using WF 34s as fronts. Intend to use Heresy I fronts and H IIs as rears (once I repair them).
As I type this Led Zeppelin wails, sweetness indeed. Beats the **** out my my temp dual 8s.
Oh well, off to do more testing (listening).
PS: Using the Radio Shack sound meter was very helpful, as the bass does not "sound" very loud when testing out each speaker in my 5.1 set up. However, on the DVD with Led Zep, it is actually way too strong. Or is it just the rock concert total body rumble? I am listening at about 94-100 dB. In the mid 80s, the bass is much smoother. I will have test jazz, etc later on. Let me know if you think the bass is heavy when volume is up.Could be my room too - pretty hard surfaces.
Brian "NOLA" - Home of good food, good music, good times........
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Oh my goodness. I was not prepared for such a detailed reply. I am certain that we all GREATLY appreciate it and you are to be commended
) )This will serve as a wonderful source of DIY cabinet repair / refinishing information for future readers too.
I am going to print this out as a guide for my doings. I think your speakers started off in worse condition than mine. Mine have some deep scratches, some chips, and rough corners for wood damage. The rest is surface stuff. The backs on my HIIs are loose. From the back i can easily pull each board up to about 1 cm (1/3 of an inch) without much trouble, at certain points. Other areas are (semi) solid. Internal bracing with lots of ?staples is only on the bottoms / tops (running front to back), not on the sides (not running up / down nor across). I suspect the cabs were reglued in the past, as some glue globs as visible on / from the back. I think this might be glue and / or brace / screw fix (done from inside). I think I would drill the screw holes first, trying not to go through the wood. Although the glue globs not large, I doubt that Klipsch QC in '86 would have passed the cabs looking like that.
I contacted Bob Crites again and will likely buy some X over(s) from him, to fix the bad HII.
Last Thursday night, there was a tube amp user get together in New Orleans. I had the wonderful opportunity to hear what I think was a 100k system. I think my non 100k system is still pretty nice. (I may post about bi amping my Klipsh horns with my 2 MC240s, later on. See ref: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm Might make a good Holiday project. But if anybody wants to email or PM me about the $$ of and sources for active x over networks, etc, please feel free. I just don't want to start a flame war now...to much repair work still to do.)
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Re: the autotransformer, would this explain why only the midrange leads are dead? Could it be a dead capacitor?
I did email Bob Crites and sent some pix. He has already replied once.
I might need to call him on Monday. I am hoping for a low cost repair.
Will most any HII or even HI parts / X over work, or do I specifically need round cup, early HII?
Re: cabinet repair. I do not have clamps, but Lowe's, Home Depot and Harbor Freight are not far. Also have lots of heavy books. Only the back panels appear to be loose. Other woodwork seems solid. The glue or silicone / sealant that I can see from inside the cab (with mids removed) looks continuous, kind of like bathroom tub sealer.
Would glue and nails / screws work ok? I repaired a commercial sub with lots of screws in January - worked out great.
The exterior repair / clean up might have to wait. If used as surrounds
in the bedroom, due to space probs, they would be very high, likely put
on their sides, and tilted down, so I am not sure that all the work
needed would be worth my time now.
My thought about these HIIs was to use them as surround / rear spkrs in
the bedroom with my trusty and great looking HIs, walnut, as the front
spkrs. Uncertain about center so far. I did buy an Academy, but may put
centers above and below my 60" main room TV-to even out the sound-it
projects too low for me now. These HIIs could also end up part of a 7.1 system, if I ever do that.
In the bedroom I have the new icons-and they are nice, but I just do
not like the Icon 34s compared to HIs. I have a better sub on the way, maybe that will help the bass-shy 34s. (But I still don't know if I
have room for both big screen TV and HIs on the bedroom.) The icons may
end up as centers on the their sides, unless I find another cheap
Academy or single Heresy.
BTW: you guys are great) -
The bad cabinet: woofer and tweeter work fine. Neither midrange (I tested both mids-having removed them) works at all off the midrange leads coming from the crossover. That is why I think the x over is bad.
Good cabinet: woofer, tweeter and midrange work fine. With mid removed from cabinet and using "testing wires" to each mid (both mids having been removed from their respective cabs), both mids, tested separately and together with addl jumper wires work fine.
Each cab has a black stripe wire and a non black stripe wire running to the mids. In 1 cab, the black wire went to the yellow dotted terminal on the K 53 driver, in the other, it went to the other side. Because the bad cab had a replaced woofer, I figured maybe some pulled the mid leads out and reversed them by accident before closing up the cabinet. The wires were very tighly placed onto the mid driver in the good cab-I needed a plier to remove each one. However, in the repaired and bad cab, they came off easily.When testing each mid separately, there was no appreciable difeerence in sound regardless of which terminal the black stripe wire was attached to. As each K53 has a small yellow dot painted by the terminal on 1 side only, does it matter if that side is connected to the black stripe wire or not?
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From the tag inside the cabinet, they were made / finished / signed off between 5/21/86-5/28/86.
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3rd pic
again, what I see sounds different from your descriptions.
Pls feel free to email me any part cost info too.
Thanx
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Your description sounds different from what I can see. Here are some pix of the cabinet bottom / side / front, and crossover /speaker post area.
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I bought a pair of used Heresy IIs. Both cabinets are damaged and I think the midrange leads, beyond the crossover, are dead in 1 cabinet.
1. --Cabinet issues--
I think the back panel needs a "reglue", as it is very loose. Any suggestions: which product and how exatly to do it?
On my Heresy Is there was a definite bottom with little metal knobs attached. On these, all sides and top/bottom are equally finished with no sign of knobs/raised bottoms. Does this mean I need to find risers, etc? I can add pics if needed.
I also need to completely refinish these due to marring, deep scratches, etc. Any suggestions?
2. More major problem: The seller of the speakers said 1 midrange was out. Also looks like the woofer was replaced (black cone material vs original ?greyish color, sounds fine). He thought the midrange needed a new diaphragm. I pulled the midranges out of both cabs and drove them via the cab that worked ok (the bad cab ran the woofer and tweeter just fine). Turns out, both midranges sound ok (mind you the black wires were attached to different "ends" of the mids in each cab, but regardless of which way the test wires were run from the good cab, the sound ws fine from both mids.) The crossover itself looks physically intact. I have a multimeter, but do not know what setting to use to test live speaker wires, in order to confirm that the mid leads are dead from 1 cab (all volt readings were zero so far, maybe I messed up though). Do I need a whole new Xover or just new capacitors?
I cannot figure out how to remove the speaker post / crossover plastic piece. I unscrewed it, but still tightly held in place. I do not want to break it. Is it glued on tight and can it be safely wedged out?
I will also email Bob Crites and post this as a WTB Xover in the Garage forum.
Thanx for your advice - and I have lots of Mardi Gras beads to say thanx for good advice......
--Brian-- "NOLA"
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In New Orleans I am often accused of threatening the levees due to the bass in my system with commerical subs (4 x 18" drivers, 17 x 40 x 14 space).
Cowabonga! I am jealous. Do I detect a Razorback t shirt, Whoo Pig Sooey.....HeHeHe......
I am a Professor at the Tulane Med School and we have a resident from Lafayette. Can't wait to show him the picture of you with your new twins, all ?400 lbs of them (ave size for babies in Fat City, the Big Easy). Let me know when they are up and running
, well, I should feel them even here....Bass, Mega Bass, Ultimate Bass, Klipsch Pro Audio Bass.....Priceless......
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Like the title says.
I have a small room and an old receiver. It can do 5.1. I have some speakers that are ok and simply put, I just need a small-medium sized sub. If I could figure out a way to do this with the little used Promedia sub unit it would save me buying a new sub. I had seen a Synergy Sub 10 at Best Buy that would be plenty for the room, but prefer to save money.
Maybe I need to open up the sub and do some direct wiring?
Any advice appeciated
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Hey, if it's not too late, pls add me to the list.
Found a hotel nearby to Klipsch and will rent a car at the airport. Return flight is noonish on Sunday.
As a newbie, not really sure who does what or when. I am sure i will meet people Fri night at Klipsch to straighten me out
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This did not format properly when I just posted it...
So here is another try:
Sorry for the Newbie Qs:
I plan to leave New Orleans on Fri and arrive at the IND airport around 4:30 pm.
Could use some directions to Klipsch HQ and - - Indy Rush Hour Traffic Info - - from the airport to the HQ.
Or do I just follow the west loop, for better or worse?
From Google maps, I found the following, is this correct?:
Klipsch Audio Technologies?
3502 Woodview Trce # 200
Indianapolis, IN 46268
(317) 860-8100
klipsch.com?
I think the schedule is as follows: (not to be anal, but if anyone has anything else to post as a summary, it might be useful to others)
Fri pm, Klipsch classes, 5-9, followed by "consuming mass quantities" with new friends
Sat - no clue, but I guess the people I meet Fri night will tell me. ?? 9-5 at the HQ ??
Sat pm - I assume more mass quants will be consumed
Sun am - ? remain comatose due to the above?
Sun noon - fly back to the big easy.
Flights $300- (very expensive)
Car/gas est $70
Hotel - still working on it. Would be willing to share, but I warn you, I snore. About $80/n
Meeting all you folks and advice learned ... Priceless.
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Sorry for the Newbie Qs:
I plan to leave New Orleans on Fri and arrive at the IND airport around 4:30 pm.
Could use some directions to Klipsch HQ and - - Indy Rush Hour Traffic Info - - from the airport to the HQ.
Or do I just follow the west loop, for better or worse?
From Google maps, I found the following, is this correct?:
Klipsch Audio Technologies?
3502 Woodview Trce # 200
Indianapolis, IN 46268
(317) 860-8100
klipsch.com?
I think the schedule is as follows: (not to be anal, but if anyone has anything else to post as a summary, it might be useful to others)
Fri pm, Klipsch classes, 5-9, followed by "consuming mass quantities" with new friends
Sat - no clue, but I guess the people I meet Fri night will tell me. ?? 9-5 at the HQ ??
Sat pm - I assume more mass quants will be consumed
Sun am - ? remain comatose due to the above?
Sun noon - fly back to the big easy.
Flights $300- (very expensive)
Car/gas est $70
Hotel - still working on it. Would be willing to share, but I warn you, I snore. About $80/n
Meeting all you folks and advice learned ... Priceless.
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Hi all from the big easy
Haven't done the airfare nor hotel yet.
Some Qs:
I guess I will arrive Fri afternoon. But when do most people leave? Sat night-if so, be temped to hit Chicago for a day? Sun morning? etc
Any good info for less expensive hotel? (AAA discount). I expect to rent a car. Can we park at Klipsch? Is Klipsch near dntn Indy?
Thanx in advance
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I posted on another similar thread.
Hello from the big easy.
Would look forward to making and hanging with new friends.
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Hello from the big easy.
Would look forward to hanging with some new new friends.
I Compared 4 Amps (Solid State, Push Pull x 2 and SET 300B Tube) and 4 Speakers (K Horns, Heresy Is and IIs and WF-34s)
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Hehehe.....
Amy Unger took a pic of me next to the cut a way K horn during the Pilgrimmage. But after being up all night at Klipsch Indy Fan's awesome place, I looked - and felt -10 yrs older (bags under my eyes, etc). So couldn't use that pic on the avatar. I kinda liked the pic of me and the (real) old lady from a trip to Berlin lasr winter. Nefertete, Nofrete, etc on the spelling. In a Berlin museum, near museum island. As a former Art History major and wanna be architect, one of my favorite museums is nearby, the Pergamon Museum. Yrs ago she was at the Charlottenburg Palace, but not anymore.
Hey, I am a classy guy.....
People on this and other Forums have been a tremendous help to me. Wanted to give something back.
Silversport, I will be in the Big Windy after Thanksgiving for the RSNA. If you are dntn to Wrigleyville, lets grab a beer.....
Well, have chatted with some folks about the tests. Conclusions so far: 20-30 yr old Heritage speakers likely need some new caps, possibly fully new x overs. Diaphragms and drivers might also be culprits. I really expected to hear significant differences betwen the amps, and I was very surprised that I did not. I remain unclear as to why the amps also sounded alike on the new WF-34. As my sinuses were not clogged, I think my hearing was ok. I am the first to admit that I usually did not hear as a great a difference in speakers / amps, etc., than that reported by others. This was true even yrs ago. I intend to pursue things further and will likely report back with some new tests in 2009 once speakers have been worked on, but don't expect any testing around Mardi Gras season - lasts for weeks. I look forward to checking my MC240s on other rigs locally as able.I would also appreciate comments from those who are into x over building.