PrestonTom
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Posts posted by PrestonTom
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Gee, I can't believe the things I am reading.
1. You don't really believe that you are going to "effectively" get a 45kHz bandwidth from vinyl do you?
2. The spatial information is not "up above 15 kHz" . It is across the entire bandwidth. For localization in the horizontal plane the low frequencies are especially important. For vertical plane localization, then higher frequency content is important, but it is not all up at 15 kHz. Doesn't matter since most of the vertical dimension is lost in stereophonic recording. Besides most males in an industrialized society suffer some (or much) high frequency loss.
3. The ambiance (difficult to define specifically), if it is in the original recording, then it does not require inter channel phase shifts. There are however some illusory effects if phase is played with. In my mind, the ambiance is in the recirding and due to the venue. This will be reproduced, unless the engineer has messed things up.
4. With true stereophony, where 2 mics are used to encode (unfortunately, this is not typically done in studio recordings) and two speakers to reproduce, the resulting waveform at the ears (in your living room) is remarkably close to what would be found with actual sources (instruments) playing at those same locations in your living room. No "phase incoherence" is required (incidentally some of you are using this term incorrectly, so I got confused at first). This effect was termed "stereophony" by Ben Bauer back in the late 50s. There was (and continues to be) a good quantitative analysis of this. It really is simple physics and does not require exotic explanations.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Well, so far this discussion has confused a number of issues.
Sampling rate (along with the reconstruction filter) will determine the bandwidth reproduced. This may in fact be wider than what was originally recorded, so the effective bandwidth reproduced could be smaller. No comparison: CDs have better bandwidth capability. Is this a factor for your enjoyment? Good question since there is relatively little energy in the music as you get to the higher frequencies. Even if there is energy, males living in an industrialized society probably have, or will, have less hearing sensitivity to these frequencies.
Number of bits will determine one possible noise floor. This is defined as quantization noise and will be about 90 -100 dB down. This is the definition of resolution when you describe digital encoding/decoding and is proportional to 6dB per bit (more bits the better & historically referred to as "word length"). This is not much noise; however, it ends up not being the limiting noise. Noise in your listening room will raise this "floor" by 10s of dB. Even in a quiet room there will still be "noise" and distortion from the electronics and also produced by the mechanical transduction within the speaker. Back to the issue of vinyl vs digital (and ignoring what ever compression and levels the engineer may have dialed in - which could be significant): CDs again will measure better both for a lower noise floor and probably a greater dynamic range. Will you be able to always appreciate the benefit? Good question, depends on the recording, electronics and noise within your room. This caveat is not trivial.
If it is not clear enough already, these are limiting cases. What ever the material was to begin with will determine whether a particular CD will sound "better" or worse than vinyl. This is very much a function of the recording engineer etc. Even if it is the "same" material (e.g. Miles Davis, Kind of Blue) they may have been re-mastered very differently when re-released. So it is difficult to compare.
Beyond this recording issue comes the issue of reproduction. Various benefits of digital (or deficits of vinyl) can certainly be masked during the playback. Most of us have a surprisingly high "noise floor" in our living rooms and the softer passages (if recorded properly) will be obscured. Add to this the various forms of distortion that occur in the amp and speaker (which is the weak link - highest source of some kinds of distortion), then the dynamics & S/N ratio afforded by the CD will be lost.
Incidentally, the comparably high levels of distortion during electrical to mechanical transduction (the speaker) is why I am so high on high-efficiency speakers. It is the one chance we have really clean up the signal.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Jeff,
I understand your position, although I don't agree with it. I have gotten good deals on Klipsch speakers ($1k for K-Horns & $400 For Cornwalls). The difference is that I was patient and able to leverage the deal (i.e, provide transport, pay cash, alleviate some hassle for the seller). In both cases, the seller understood that I was getting a deal. There was no subterfuge.
Your logic & approach has been a legal & economic argument. In that view, you are correct. No one was forced to sell at a discount, or someone else would have done it also, etc... The justifications & rationalizations can go on forever.
However, there is another approach. That argument is based on the notion: was it the right thing to do?That is a tougher one to judge and everyone must decide it for themselves. My criteria (whether it is speakers or the corvette) is how would you feel if it was your grandmother or child being exploited by their own ignorance. I think that casts a different light on things.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Yikes!! Thats too much $$$$ for me what is the best bang for the buck , I like the bass response to be tight and defined,Please post your suggestions....
I think you have answered your own question.
The bass response on K-Horn is fantastic. IMHO adding a sub will only mess things up.
If you are having problems with the bass reproduction from the K-Horn, then the most probable culprits (and solutions) involve speaker setup/location and room effects. Perhaps that should be your plan of attack.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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It really is interesting how the "connect the dots" - view has become so embedded in the way that some conceive of digital waveforms.
The idea of the final low-pass filter (reconstruction filter) is ignored. When you look at the digital waveform on an oscilloscope, you really can connect the dots. Add even the simplest of low-pass filters, then it looks entirely "analog". Hmmmmm, where did the dots go?
Good Luck,
-Tom
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You would think so, I agree.
But the imaging is still there because both high-ends (right and left speakers) are "in phase" with each other from the 600Hz point on up - the high ends are a bit out of phase with the woofers and that is only at the crossover point more-or-less...
This means that the soundstage is intact in its presentation.
The woofer is cancelled at the crossover point (being an ES at 600Hz) a little, but not all, in other words.
It's a rather strange experience, but nothing is noticably "wrong" with the presentation other than the bass is "slow" and is rendered "softer" in volume somewhat. This effect is quizical to me in that there is no reason for any cancellation of low frequencies to be caused by an out-of-phase top-end (mid and high freqs) to cancel out any of the low frequencies, so it has to be an electrical issue in the ESN crossover, as far as I can tell, but I'm guessing here.
DM
DM: The effect is quizzical, but lets look at a couple of things.
First, there is only cancellation when you are at the midline. In other locations the waveforms may be adding or subtracting incompletely.
Second, you will only get a real cancellation if the waveforms are in opposite phase AND the waveforms are at a comparable level. You may be getting some room modes that are differentially changing the effective level of the two waveforms. If so the they may be in opposite phase but not equal in level. This, of course, would also give an incomplete canceling. Actually you may be (in a sense) altering the location of the room modes also.
To the degree that the crossover slopes are steep, one would think that there would be too little overlap to make this phenomenon very audible. I suspect it would not happen in a room that had a great deal of bass absorption. But that is just a guess.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Nix, you mentioned "....some distorted guitar tones sound overly nasal,harsh, and metallic..."
As much as I enjoy Cornwalls, I have also found this to be the case. I think it is even more prominent with certain brass instruments. Although I find the Cornwall 2s to be less objectionable in this regard. The differences between Cornwalls and Cornwall 2s are tricky because there are a number of production changes within both series.
Let me know if you are able to solve this problem. However, I am not optimistic regarding some of your proposed solutions.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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no joke, the longer it plays... the bigger the caps and transformers , more stored current to work with transients
I sure the techi types will slay this, it's just an observation I've made over many years. kind of like how much it weighs
You are absolutely correct! It is not so much the transformers (which give the weight) but rather the capacitors.
However, there are some modern circuits that provide protection from start up transients that may actually cutoff the sound, so you may not hear the extra 10 seconds of sound.
Incidentally, a well built power supply in an amp (beefed up transformer and capacitors) negates the "need" for any sort of exotic power conditioners. Power anomalies, are seldom as severe as the power cutting out for a half a second.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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I have the Dean networks and they do use more modern and different components. The difference in the sound quality was staggeringly significant and well worth the price of the upgrade. (and I don't even use tubes)
JJK
A couple of points are being confused here.
If the original components have deteriorated, then a replacement will have an obvious benefit.
If the circuit is redesigned then there could be a big difference also, hopefully an improvement.
If, however, the circuit is not re-desgned and the components were not deteriorated, then simply putting in fancy/expensive parts (with the same electrical values) will have little if any effect.
I believe the biggest differences lie within an actual re-design of the circuit. However, these differences may or may not be "better".
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Welcome,
Congratulations on the Cornwalls.
I would suggest not placing any material inside the cabinet. A mat will actually have very little effect on dampening the low freqs and other material (eg batting, fill etc) is not a good idea since the cabinet was designed to function "as is".
Crossovers are a favorite topic around here and options can range from replacing capacitors (which may deteriorate over time, so they say) to a full re-design. Personally, I would simply listen to the speakers for the next several months and get to know them.
As for swapping horns, this is also a big step. I think you would need to be very clear about what it is that you like and do not like about the sound before you do this. Cornwalls are pretty good in their current configuration.
As for silver conductors, this is voodoo.
My friendly suggestion would be simply to listen to the cabinets for several months. In the mean time, bigger gains will be achieved by careful tweaking of the speaker / listening chair location & geometry and experimenting with the set up. This experimentation could also include simple steps at modifying the room: carpet (in or out or with or without a pad) drapes, wall hangings to help diffuse sound etc. These will give real differences, much larger than some of the other things you mentioned
Good Luck,
-Tom
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As far as the price, 3K is high. They typically go for about 1500 - 2500. Condition & finish are the main factors. The other big driver is transporting them. They weigh about 170 lbs apiece, but the tops, are easily removed.
As far as requirements: they must be placed in the room's corners (or false corners can be constructed). The corner completes the final flare of the horn. Without this, the bass will be severely compromised. The other requirement is that the source and amp must be clean and quiet. Any distortion, hiss or hum will be ruthlessly revealed. However, a mega watt amp is certainly not a requirement. Unfortunately, the price for new K-Horns is high. Not many are made so it would be hard to find a deal. The good news is that the older ones are pretty good and it is unlikely that the drivers would be damged.
You will probably get much advice on other "requirements". However, I would go slow. Get them, locatethem properly and then enjoy them for the next few months. There is plenty of time for the later craziness about the other issues.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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It will be a very different sound compared to a Klipsch.
You will not have the dynamics nor the clean bass. However, the sound stage will be quite interesting.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Although I am not currently in the market, I am interested in your opinion of the Monarchy amps driving K-Horns. I know it sounds crazy asking for an opinion by the seller. But really ..... what were the pros & cons?
Good Luck,
-Tom
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I may be alone on this one, but with all respect I do not think this edition of the K-Horns really look all that good.
At a distance it will simply have some very strong lines. The toe kick is not appealing and the "sides" do not extend far enough to complete the horn flare. They will still need to be in the room's corners.
Perhaps the swivelling top will make the on-axis seating position easier (I wonder what that looks like when the upper and lower cabinets are not "aligned")
When cabinets are so large, having more wood visible makes them a bit less visually oppressive. I can only imagine the comments my girlfriend will make when she sees these.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Why are these tired jokes in the "2 channel forum" ?
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I'm game if Tom is. Tom, just remember that these are basically stock AAs with fresh caps. They in no way represent the level of improvement available with ALKs or Dean's Super AAs. What they basically will do is represent what your horns sounded like new thirty years ago before the advent of CAD and designs with "cost no object" development like Al's Extreme Slope Networks.
Rick
Rick,
Thank you for your kind offer.
But I must confess that right now my listening room contains about 12 boxes, a refrigerator, a dishwasher in a box, a second stove, a bunch of old cabinets etc. Some where in the back are the K-Horns.
Yes, you guessed it - I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation that is taking forever. I swear the idea started out as "why don't I just add a kitchen island". Well, it is never that simple. The electrical and lighting were all re-worked, new drywall on one end, moderate amount of plumbing, all new kitchen cabinets (also needing assembly), new paint, baseboards - yet to be installed, etc. The new counter tops & sink are hidden somewhere under the mess.
Someday I will get to the crossovers, but right now I am having to wash dishes in the bathroom .....
Good Luck,
-Tom
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MM,
You have asked an impossible question, since the category includes quite a bit of music with some very different styles etc.
My suggestion would be to visit your local library and check out various CDs that they have. Try and get as much variety as possible (small combo, larger emsembles, vocals) and be sure to get selections from the the different eras.
This will get you started. It is an enjoyable journey.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Jeff: I am following this thread with great interest, since I will soon be in the process of updating/modifying my AA crossovers. I am interested in your reviews
Rick: I think this is a very gracious offer that you have made. Way to go!
It sounds like various things may be happening.
Most likely (and this is guessing) is that not all crossovers (capacitors) decay with age. This would certainly not be the first time that components have a range of useful lifespans (Jeff may have just been fortunate, or his cabinets may have been in a better environment - temp, humidity etc)
Second possibility is that the effects are real but the effects are subtle. It is probably not a "night and day" difference if it requires both cabinets to be updated. I don't think Jeff's procedures are all that bad . With the results that some in the past have described, one would have thought the effects were very,very dramatic.
Another possibility is that the source material was not very revealing. I would give this one some thought. Although the Steely Dan recordings were typically done pretty well, an old rock recording may not be the best diagnostic. My bias has been for acoustic and classical recordings. Possibilities include some of the European small labels (Denon, Harmonia Mundi, many others etc). Some of the jazz possibilities would include the Blue Note and Impulse (although the older recordings may have been massaged quite a bit on re-release)
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Tom, ""As for the low bass problems, I am uneasy with using an equalizer (for various reasons)." Might I ask why? IME well placed (and that is the key) parametric EQ can work very well in the minimum phase bass range. Shawn
Shawn,
A few reasons on why I hesitate using an equalizer.
First, the setups I have seen using EQ for correcting room problems have not been satisfactory. You may have had/seen better results, I have not.
Second, I am concerned about putting extra things in the signal chain. The K-Horns are very revealing of any noise, distortion, hiss & hum. So it gets risky ( I am interested in as clean a signal as possible).
Third, I don't feel an EQ will clean up reverberation problems, it will only attenuate them. Actually it can make matters worse since a narrow band filter will, for physical reasons, cause the waveform to "ring" and loose its attack. Although, at a low frequency this may not be a severe problem.
There are cases where an EQ is advantageous. Certainly for correcting coloration form the speakers themselves or perhaps "correcting" some problems inherent in the original recording.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Just a couple of comments.
re: 0.2 dB increments for adjusting levels. This is a very small value, certainly less than perceptible. I can not imagine that 0.75 dB increment would not be fine. Besides when you increase the resolution (smaller increments) you will lose the overall range, unlesss there are many, many taps.
re: distortion in the autoformer. I can not believe there would be a problem. This is a passive device and you would need to do something very unreasonable to make go into some sort of non-linear region.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Jeff,
Good question.
The hearing test you would get from a GP is typically not very thorough. If you went to an ENT, they would have their audiologist perform the test. At the very least this would be a pure tone audiogram, along with a short history. Depending on what they found, other tests might be required. The problem with an audiogram, is that it tells you about significant damage after the damage has occurred. However, this is one way to find out about hearing protection and what you should be actively doing to help yourself.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Soundbroker,
I am not sure what you mean by seeking "well defined peaks".
As for the low bass problems, I am uneasy with using an equalizer (for various reasons). My space may be large enough to use some sort of bass trap or Helmholtz resonators. I agree with your view about the aesthetics issue, but may be I can get clever and figure out a way to disguise things. As for the higher frequencies, I am also toying with foam along with the idea of fabricating some RPG panels, this may or may not be do-able or aesthetic.
Right now things are on hold till I get finished with the carpentry in my kitchen and get an affordable measurement rig. My measurement equipment at work is no longer an option.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Jeff,
It is clear from this thread ("... till my ears are ringing...") and your other comments in the "headroom"-thread, that you are listening to music that is far too loud.
When it gets to the point that you are producing tinnitus (ringing in your ears), you are also starting to damage your hearing. Noise induced hearing loss is not a joke. The effects are cumulative and the deficits will get worse. I strongly urge folks not to listen at these levels. In fact, I would also urge you to use proper hearing protection when using power tools, motorcycles, lawn mowers etc.
No one wants to be like an old man who continually is saying "speak up" or who simply becomes isolated around others because they can't follow the conversation.
Seriously, I am afraid that this is where you are headed. What damage you have already done is not reversible. What you can do is to simply prevent further damage.
I apologize if I seem heavy handed in my comments, but don't dismiss them. I am faculty at a university and study hearing science. I do know what I am talking about.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Although this thread has gone on, and on and on, no one has mentioned the issue of transient current capability (if it was mentioned, I missed it). This had been a popular issue with the "high current amps".
An amp can lack extra power (watts) to amplify the peaks without distortion (clipping). However, an amp can also fail to deliver the momentary amounts of high current that a speaker may require. While this is probably not a problem with a Kilpsch speaker since they are quite efficient and the impedance does not go all that low. It can be a problem with current loving speakers. That is one that is not very efficient and the impedance can drop to pretty low levels. Electrostatics and panel speakers are quite problematic in this regard.
It is a tricky issue to define a high current amp, since there are no agreed-upon specs. As I recall, the Harman Kardon line will have their own spec of how many amps (around 30-45 amps) will be sent over a short period of time (on the order of 10s of milliseconds).
Good luck,
-Tom
Cornwalls up and running!
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Weiming,
Congratulations on the Cornwalls. I am sorry that you had some problems with the shipping, but it sounds like you are back on track.
Yes, they are a bit bigger once you get them inside your room. However, I would encourage you to experiment a bit with the speaker placement. Sometimes, even moving them only several inches relative to various walls can positively impact the sound.
Good Luck,
-Tom