vanderrg

Good question- My desire to try it stems from the fact that when I turn off the sub there just doesn't seem to be the kind of bass that I would expect from the RF-7's. Now of course I can remedy that by turning the sub back on but then I wonder if I'm missing out on higher bass frequencies that the RF-7 should still be producing. My understanding is that the reason that separates generally warm up the sound is somehow related to their presentation of lots of clean high-current power to the Rf-7's (i.e. 200wpc or more). I don't really understand why this would increase the bass response but everyone seems to say that it does. Now I have heard that the Denons are good receiver for delivering close to their rated RMS power (and doing it cleanly) and was hoping that bi-amping the Denon and thus sending lots and lots of power to the RF-7's might accomplish (or come close to) the same effect that a separate 200wpc amp might do... BV

I had a very brief exchange with Speakerdoctor previously about Biamping my RF-7's using my 3805 as described here: http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review04.php To broaden the question and open it up to all who would care to contribute: 1. I know that separates are supposed to be the very best, but bi-amping with this Denon should give me 240 wpc total to each RF-7. Shouldn't that be plenty of power to deal with the impedance drops the RF-7's can experience? 2. I have a decent subwoofer: an SVS 20-39 PC+ crossed over at 80hz with all speakers set to small. Do you think bi-amping in this way would produce any discernable benefit or is the Denon's normal 120wpc plenty given the fact that the RF-7's are already not having to produce the full spectrum of sound? 3. I know that good separates are supposed to provide huge amounts of clean power that can increase the RF-7's bass response and warm up the sound which is what I'm hoping would happen if I do this bi-amp thing. At the end of the day if the group here thinks there's even a decent chance that this would work I could always just do it and see how it sounds...but I don't want to waste my time if everyone here is confident that it wouldn't accomplish anything... Thanks in advance-

Yeah, he likely won't appreciate the speakers like others would. From his perspective he just didn't want to waste his cash and since sound isn't a passion of his he figured he'd take advantage of your experience. Most of us have probably done that type of thing before...not everyone can invst the time it takes to really investigate every potential costly purchase... My father-in-law is like that- he has a lot of money but doesn't have the inclination to research electronics purchases so he basically lets me spend his money. He doesn't like/trust salespeople and figures if I tell him stuff is good then he's not wasting his money. I do know what you mean though...I'm not jealous of his gear but I do think it would be nice to be able to flippantly drop major cash without sweating like he can-

I did a search and found this thread- I recently bought RF-7's and a Denon 3805. While listening to CDs I felt there just wasn't that full, rich bass that I know RF-7's are capable of. I know the speakers work because if I play a DVD that has lots of bass (i.e. The Incredibles) the RF-7's really rumble during the crazy bass-heavy parts. I came to the conclusion that my CDs (classic Rock mostly) just maybe aren't recorded with the kind of bass like you would hear at a live concert and so I wanted to see what those on the boards here would say about cranking up the bass knobs on their receivers. I know that any kind of processing of the sound is tantamount to sin...but I would be surprised if everyone else here were content with CD sound lacking in good, pounding bass. Maybe my room is part of the problem but I sort of doubt it...it has curtains and carpet and is 14 x 17. So I'm wondering if anyone else, particularly those with RF-7's and especially with a similar receiver, felt the same way and maybe tinkered with the bass setting to compensate...

I'm sort of in your boat- though instead of my stuff being in boxes it's sitting in our bedroom while our house is built (my wife loves that- RF-7's and an SVS cylinder sitting in our bedroom!)...but at least I get to listen to them... since you're building a new house can we presume you've planned out a suitable spot for the speakers once it's finished? Otherwise why build a new house at all, right?

I have a 3300 joule surge protector ($25 at Costco) but you guys have got me thinking about getting a power conditioner...a quick question though- I went to Furman's website and it looks like all of their products are designed to be rack-mounted...I have my stuff on regular shelves...anyone know of one of these products they can recommend that is designed to sit on a regular shelf without looking ridiculous? thanks! BV

I'm with you Shane- at work on very little sleep after seeing it at midnight...the movie did raise some questions that aren't fully answered but overall I thought it was fantastic... and I too thought the whole time how I couldn't wait to watch it at home!

Could/would you describe those non-intuitive concepts that you and Spkrdctr resolved? That info may be quite useful to many forum readers. Thanks. Happy to oblige- Imagine you're a newbie (like me) who doesn't REALLY understand concepts such as what a low-level input on a sub is, what the gain on a sub does, and what sensitivity really means in a speaker. For a while you've had a mediocre sub/sat speaker system.... It doesn't intuitively make sense that two people could buy the same sub, both having good receviers to power their systems...and one guy just has to plug the sub in and he's done...the walls shake, the earth moves...30% on the sub's gain is more than enough...but when the other guy (let's say he has the same recevier but different HT speakers) plugs that same sub into the same receiver and turns the receiver's volume up to normal listening levels he gets very little bass from the sub...perhaps the same or even less than he got from his previous (inferior) sub! Then someone tells him that he just needs to crank the gain on the sub almost all the way up... and the gain doesn't matter anyway...now he's really confused...if the gain doesn't matter then why is it on the sub to begin with? And why doesn't the other guy have to crank HIS gain up to hear good bass? So our flustered hero turns up the gain on his sub but it still isn't really contributing to the overall sound in his room much...so he goes into the level settings on his recevier and cranks the sub level by a few notches...the bass gets a little better but to our newbie it feels like he's having to have his recevier COMPENSATE for his lousy half-broken subwoofer...after all he didn't have to crank up the level with his old sub...the fact that he has to crank up the level in the receiver and the sub gain much more than his friend with the same sub and same receiver is tantamount to PROOF that something is wrong with his new sub... Someone else tells him that if he calibrates his system everything will be fine...but our newbie's previous experience with sound level calibration was when he got his original speakers and he just did some fine-tuning by ear to make sure each of his five satellite speakers were playing at the relative volume they should... he remembers that changing the speaker levels did affect the volume of sound coming out of the speakers a little as he tweaked them...but not THAT much...it isn't like his center channel was silent as a church until he increased the speaker level by +4 and suddenly the room came alive with deafening sound!...So why would he believe that it would make a huge difference in his sub's performance? And even if it would...remember his buddy didn't have to jump through ANY of those hoops to get his new sub shaking things. See what I mean? What I was experiencing and what others were saying simply didn't make sense to me. For me the solution to those frustrating puzzles came mostly through the conversation I had with the speaker doctor, where I came to a much fuller understanding of some of those terms and concepts that I thought I knew before... to summarrize: 1. If the newbie is using HT speakers with a very high sensitivity rating, then he will hear louder sound at a given setting of his receiver's volume knob than his fellow new-sub owner...thus unless he does some serious upward-adjusting of his sub level in the receiver's settings, the sub will lag far behind the rest of his speakers in terms of sound output...seen in this light, having to crank the sub level up in the recevier's settings is rightfully attributed to the high sensitivity of the other speakers in the system, not a deficiencey in the sub or the receiver. I had no idea how much a speaker's sensitivity rating affects how loud it plays. I have the RF-7's and originally when I was playing them loudly, the receiver's volume knob was still set at a low enough setting that it wasn't telling the sub to play very loud...once I compensated for this by cranking up the sub output in the receiver's settings the sub went bananas. 2. Regarding why the old sub sounded similar to the new one at first, this was a concept that I had been totally unfamiliar with until Speaker Doctor told me about it, and I may get it wrong but here's how I have it in my mind...for a high-powered sub such as the SVS, when the signal from the receiver is coming in at a very low level, the signal may simply be too weak to really get the sub going at all...and if you incrementally increase the gain or the level setting in the receiver or both...you'll eventually hit a threshhold where the sub's output will suddenly increase dramatically... the idea being my old inferior sub was playing merrily along with a weaker signal from the receiver because that's all it needed, but that same weak signal wasn't enough to really tell the SVS to do much at all...once I took steps to send the SVS enough of a signal to "wake it up" if I can use that term...its performance left the older sub far behind. Who would have thunk? I would imagine that plenty of people out there are like me, who, having upgraded their HT speakers to a level far above where their previous ones were, feel like somehting has to be wrong somewhere to have to make such dramatic changes in the receiver's level controls...and really I was convinced of that until others told me that the exact same thing happened to them...and that it was perfectly normal to have to do this if you have realy sensitive speakers...Speaker Doctor told me that in some cases people have had to dial their sub level all the way up in the receiver's settings, and also to then turn DOWN all of the other speaker levels in the receiver setup...just to get enough of a signal to go to the sub to make it play in a manner commensurate with the other speakers... Anyway feel free to correct anything I've gotten wrong- all I know for sure is I feel like a new person this morning after getting this system sounding sweet. Now I can go watch Episode III tonight without having this hanging over my head!!!

Okay, good news. My home is rumbling appropriately; no cats to assess for terror but my 14-month-old periodically flees the room during explosions. My new sub is fine, and I feel very very much better. I have the sub that I was hoping for and the sense of relief is huge. First off thanks to everyone who posted for me here...this forum is a great resource. Basically I had a good telephone conversation with the Speaker Doctor and now I understand what was going on...it truly is a problem that was corrected with "calibration" (even a loose one without AVIA, which I ordered but hasn't arrived yet)...thanks to the doc for helping me to understand why it made sense for me to have to crank the gain on the sub up to 70% AND crank up the level in my receiver's level settings, and why my older sub sounded similar before I did. I feel like an idiot, but in my defense there are concepts in play here that aren't necessarily intuitive and I can't help but wonder how many people out there are living with suboptimal sound because they don't have access (or don't realize they have access) to this kind of info on forums like this. Anwyay thanks again! Bob

Dragonfyr: Thanks for the level-headed view of this...yours and a couple of the other posts are giving me a new perspective. I'm not at home now but I plan on calibrating the sub correctly when I get home and going from there. It's funny...maybe when I calibrate it the stuff in the house will rattle when it's turned up and I'll experience the bass that I expected...maybe I still won't and the reason is because my expectations are unrealistic (though I have trouble reconciling this completely with what I have read from others who gush about how thunderous and powerful their subs are when reproducing explosions and stuff)... Maybe the sub really is broken and all of you would say so in a second if you were at my house right now! Without another set of ears it's tough to know. Either way your point is well taken about the role of a sub in a sound system. I'm not saying I want to have it turned up louder than it should be for everyday listening...but I'm worried because it seems that I don't have the option of clearing my shelves even if I wanted to (and I think I should be able to with this sub). At least so far (prior to proper calibration)...your cat would have nothing to fear at my house. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that calibration will set me free...

---------------- On 5/13/2005 1:34:37 PM CECAA850 wrote: Don't get hung up on the gain knob. Comparing gain knob positions on 2 dissimilar subs is absolutely worthless. Set the SVS a couple dB's higher than the mains and have a listen. The odds of SVS sending out 2 bad subs is remote at best (transportation damage.......that's another issue). When you get to this level of sub, setting phase and gain is not optional unless you want sub-par results. These are not plug and play units. I went through the same scenario with a PB12+2. I was so eager to find out what all the hype was about, I halfway set it up by ear and expected my house to come crashing down around me in a subsonic structural collapse. Disappointment was an understatement. I then took the time to set it up properly and all hell broke loose (like it was supposed to). Get a meter and a disc, set it up and get back with us. You're floundering in the dark till you do. You'll use it time and time again, everytime yo move a speaker or just want to tweak. Carl ---------------- Hearing you say that (about your experience with the PB12+2) reassures me a lot- even though I have my doubts I'll take your word for it and give it a go. I was meaning to buy an SPL meter anyway- I have an old copy of video essentials from 1997- would that work? I will do what you say and keep my fingers cossed! Unfortunately I may not be able to do so for a few days.

---------------- On 5/13/2005 1:06:51 PM bytor33 wrote: If you haven't messed with the phase dial turn it to 0 at that seems to work best for most people. Out of the two svs's I've received both times the phase dials were set at 180 which offered much less bass to me than at 0. ---------------- thanks Bytor- I did try changing the phase and it didn't seem to change much at any setting...I have it at zero now.

---------------- On 5/13/2005 1:20:09 PM xcjago wrote: One possibility is that you aren't used to hearing good bass. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, a lot of rap songs have loads of bass in the 40-50hz range. Crappy subs tend to accentuate this range and make it sound even louder, whereas a true subwoofer will not do this and may seem quieter. Why don't you fire up some dvd movies like Titan AE, or Lord of the Rings, if you want to hear some real bass? I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything here, I just think that you may be used to listening to that 100-watt pioneer sub, and not be used to hearing really deep bass. Also, the gain really doesn't mean anything. Some manufacturers make it so that gain increases the volume really fast to make it look like they have a lot of headroom, but they really don't. ---------------- That's a great point...and I think that's part of my uncertainty...I really haven't ever listened to a great sub in my house before. With the new SVS I demo'd the depth charge scene in U571 and the Battle Scenes at the end of Episode II...oh and also the battle in Master and Commander. In none of those cases did anything in my house rattle (my old sub would make the figurines in my wife's china cabinet dance around).And again that's with the SVS gain halfway up... It did occur to me that maybe the old sub had been really bad and had accentuated "bad" bass (it never sounded bad to me mind you-)...but what about all the people who talk about these SVS subs really rocking your home and making you fear for its structural integrity? Shouldn't this SVS be so much better that it is able to produce figurine-rattling GOOD bass instead?!? Your point is very well-taken, and it may be that the sub works fine and you're 100% right... but if so I think I'd just as soon take my 100-watts of mediocre bass that really shakes my room and save the $850! I just have a hard time believing, even with my untrained ear, that I wouldn't be able to tell a difference in output between my 100-watt Pioneer and the 525-watt SVS...

Thanks for the posts- I have it connected via the low-level input into the SVS from the subwoofer pre-out on the Denon. Same config as with the previou sub. I've tried both subs with two different receivers with the same results (the other receiver is a cheap-o Sony 90w x 6 receiver). I'm definitely open to configuration alterations such as calibrating with an SPL meter and everything, but I don't see those making enough of a difference to explain what I've already experienced...in other words... 1. I've got both subs right there together in the same room (i.e. same level setting on the recevier, etc) and the SVS just isn't putting out more bass. 2. I have to turn the gain on the SVS up HIGHER for the same bass output as compared to the other sub Part of my despair here is that the truth is that I have trouble being 100% sure that this sub is broken because it is putting out some bass, and I have never heard an SVS 20-39pc+ before for comparison. I hate the thought of calling SVS back AGAIN and telling them this sub is also defective...am I just that unlucky that they would send me two defective subs in a row? Their reputation is so much better than that. What are the odds of UPS breaking two in a row also? Have you guys ever heard of a subwoofer being "partly" broken like this, where it plays bass but just at a much lower level than it should? Thanks very much- Bob

I just received my replacement SVS 20-39pc+ (first one was DOA). While this one passes a test tone okay, it is not delivering what I would have expected given its reputation and power. I have been using an old Pioneer 100-watt sub and I never turned the gain on that old one up more than 1/4. To get similar bass out of this SVS I have to have the gain up halfway, and even then, while I can hear the bass, the experience is not at all what I expected. I was expecting for this thing to really shake the walls and to be much better than my existing sub, but it just isn't there. I don't know what to do since technically the sub works...it passes a test tone and puts out bass, I just with I had some way to tell whether it should be putting out more or if my expectations are just too high. The fact that the first sub they sent out to me didn't work at all also makes me wary and I REALLY don't want to have to send another one back unless I'm confident this one is also broken. Those with similar subs...how high do you have the gain on your sub? I'm using the RF-7 Klipsch system and a Denon 3805 receiver. Any advice would be helpful. If anyone lives in Orlando and knows how this SHOULD I'd love to have you listen to it and get your opinion on whether I should send it back... Thanks, Bob

My local BB has them for $350 each...I just went there over lunch to check things out. Unfortunately they haven't had time to set them up for listening yet so I didn't get to hear them. They did have a setup using F-2's that included the new Sub-12 and that sub sounded pretty darn good...especially considering the setup was out in the middle of the store floor far away from any walls, and not in one of the smaller speaker-listening rooms...I talked a guy into buying the sub while I was there...he was waffling between it and a JBL sub. He was wary because he wasn't familiar with Klipsch as a speaker company! After he listened to the Sub-12 he was convinced. By the way the F-2's didn't sound bad at all either. The setup they had sounded better than anything I have ever heard in a Best Buy before, and the guy had it turned up pretty loud. I certainly don't regret my decision to go with RF-7's, but at 1/3 the price I would recommend those F-2's to anyone looking in that price range. BV

I've been watching to see when these became available at Best Buy for about a month...originally I was seriously considering them for my upcoming bonus room but decided to go bananas and get reference stuff instead. Anyway I still was keeping my eye on them since they look really cool (cooler than the RVX's in my opinion) and have better specs than the RVX's while costing less. MSRP had been reported to be $350 each...but I see on the BB web site they are clearly advertised at $350 for a pair...now that is a ridiculously fantastic deal if they are really selling them for that... Does anyone have any concrete info on this...anyone listened to them at a local Best Buy yet? If so what were they selling them for? Thanks! BV

I wonder the same thing...going by the specs the SLX's actually have a wider frequency response...(82hz-23khz vs 92-20) (note the slightly bigger subwoofers in the SLX's...4.5in vs 4 in), greater sensitivity (95 vs 94db), greater power handling (75 vs 100w), and a lower MSRP (400 vs 350)...the reference 42's were just reviewed in sound and vision, and although the graph wasn't included the reviewer said they rolled off below 80hz...of course 80 is different from 92 so maybe the specs on the klipsch website are conservative. Still it is interesting to note the differences there...I'd love to hear from someone who has heard one or both of them... BV

Yeah, I agree...I was a little surprised to see the MSRP...but I'm thinking they're likely going to be sold for a little less at Best Buy, right? I guess we'll just have to see. I think I'll probably buy them anyway since they fill a niche that I need filled. B&W also makes a similar speaker (the VM1) that costs $200. I was going to buy them for my LCRs but there aren't any dipole surround speakers even remotely matched to them. It's a little tough to shell out $1150 for three SLX's when the B&W's would have cost $600, but looking at the specs I think these Klipsch's may be better speakers anyway... BV

Thanks very much! Can't wait until they come out- BV

Double-posted somehow

Thanks- Yes I had seen that press release...when I said I had searched and not found anything about the SLX speakers I meant that I hadn't found any hits in the forum where people were discussing them...sorry for being vague. Any advice on mating them with surrounds? BV

Another vote for the Home Theater Master...I have a step-down model- the MX500 and I now own two I like them so much...I've also sold so many of my friends and relatives on this remote that the company should start paying me commission! I had bought some really expensive remotes before and had hated them. You can learn any function to any button, plus for each component you can label up to 20 buttons with whatever text you want. I also like hard buttons rather than touch-screen and this remote doesn't have any touch-screen stuff.

Hello: I'm brand new posting but have read here a bunch. I did a search for the new SLX synergy speakers and didn't get any hits...which surprised me. I think they are supposed to be released in April. Anyway they appeal to me a lot because with my soon-to-be-done front projection setup I want to mount the LCR speakers on the wall and don't want to use floor speakers. (On a side note it's amazing to me how few good speaker manufacturers even make any slim LCR speakers designed to be wall-mounted given the popularity of wall-mounted screens...) Anyway I had thought about getting synergy bookshelf speakers but I really don't want to go through the hassle of mounting 10-inch deep bookshelf speakers on the wall because I don't want to drill holes in the speakers and the speaker mounts and small shelves I've seen don't look to me to be nearly as classy as do speakers designed to be wall-mounted. So I'm thrilled that Klipsch is coming out with slim speakers designed to be mounted on the wall next to a screen, and if they sound like the specs would suggest I'm definitely buying them for my front three speakers. My dilemma is what to get for rear surround speakers. I want dipole speakers for the rear rather than direct speakers (due to my seating config), and so I presume I'd get a pair of either s-2 or s-3 speakers. I know that in general the "synergy" line is designed to be used together (i.e. "matched" timbre-wise, correcct?) and so can be mated with no problems, right? Please correct me if this is wrong. But I wonder if that presumed compatibility between synergy-line fronts and surrounds extends to these new Synergy SLX speakers...how can I tell? I notice that the S-2 surrounds have the same power-handling specs as the SLX and the most similar sensitivity rating to the SLX speakers, and the closest crossover frequency... does that mean they will mate the best with the SLX speakers? Any advice would be much appreciated...also by any chance have any of you insiders had a chance to listen to the SLX speakers?!?!? Thanks! Bob