kramskoi

The Ananda will definitely smoke, with the new LMS drivers, when they become available, but there is something much more potent under 20 Hz, if you have'nt heard, then check the websites below: This is a THD profile at 12 Hz, note the output! This would be 15 dB louder than what i get from my TC sounds 2x15", at the same THD level and frequency...the TRW will play all the way down to DC: I would have to build 5 more duals to reach that level, for a total of 6 2x15" sealed subwoofers, and that's just for the 12 Hz output. http://bassment.wordpress.com/

A friend of mine who is a retired audio engineer would beg to differ . the below spectral analysis from Enya would beg to differ also: If you have a microphone and trueRTA, buy a copy of Pink Floyd's DSOTM, run the mic while you play "Speak to me" and i challenge your engineering friend to explain what's going on around 25 Hz.

with all due respect...maybe a year ago i would've been enamored with all the accolades heaped on this unit...not today...not even close. While i'm sure it serves its niche market well, it is an assault on size/space, not ultimate extension, transient response or spl.

uuuh huh. You started out scaring me a bit. 2- 2x15 at least. You are way over my head. I guess I have to strike a balance between perfect and practical. Great and affordable. I hear what you are saying about staking my claim to the 14 x 17 room. That has occured to me. Problem is it is a multi use room. Office, computer room, den and now maybe second ht. Next house I build will have a dedicated ht and I will do it up right. Maybe by then I will understand everything you just said. LOL. Until then "it's all about compromise" (sorry for stealing you line Doc). Thanks for your interesing obsevation. Tom sorry Tom...i'm on the DIY track these days and i've just finished a 2x15 for my small room...did'nt mean to overwhelm you...i'm always thinking headroom, extension and transient response...having to go +12 dB on the Revel is not a good sign though...your room must be really large...the Revel is touted favorably in many circles...but commercial designs must also strike a compromise...i can understand this. You'll enjoy the journey if indeed you do endeavor to build a dedicated HT...good luck to you.

personally, i'd stake my claim to the 14x17, which sounds like it would be a "pressure mode" room, as opposed to the "reverb" room you are in...going to be very hard to pressurize that space...with all the openings, you're looking at a 2x15 "at least" for sealed...were it me, it would be 2- 2x15 sealed units (opposite-firing) with a first order rolloff (No highpass filtering)...this puts Qtc. between .45 and .5 Q...tight and loud...the THX Klipsch would'nt get anywhere near it below or above 20 Hz...of course this would be a DIY project so i concur with putting the Revel in the 14x17 and adding the dual THX to the great room...you still may not get the impact you are looking for...an earlier poster was talking about the wind from the subs blowing his hair back...wait until you hear a high-Vd 2x15 sealed or better shifting the air in a pressure mode room...in a word...VISCERAL.

you'll definitely need significant amplification...the 2x15" sealed tc-3000 i just built, eats an ep2500 and so i'll have to add a second...4.2 kW of power at 20 Hz...125 dB bass peaks at 3.5 meters without clipping the amplifiers... i'm hoping that the LMS 4100neo will be a drop-in for my current enclosure size...neither the 4000, 5200, or 5400 would "fit" the alignment...maybe i'll talk to Kyle and see what's on the backburner...but i'm satisfied for now...

with the fbq2496, i'm using two shelving filters, among others: 1) 20 Hz (Q=.182/ + 6.5 dB) 5 octaves 2) 130 Hz (Q=.182/ - 7.5 dB) 5 octaves This models +/- 3dB from 20-130 Hz (1/2 space, 1 meter) and gives an 8dB/octave roll off (.5Q) ...the box Q=.518 so i'm sure i'm right at .5 with the 1" foam added to the enclosure. In-room, it's linear to < 10 Hz The ep2500 is no slouch btw...i have the quad voice coil wired for 1.4 ohms DCR...so the amp is seeing a little less than 2 ohms in operation...no problems so far...i was able to push the SWII "first fly-by" to 118 dB @ 3.5 meters...it starts clipping at 119 dB...quite thunderous 30-50 Hz range!...and if i switch out the BFD, it adds 4-5 dB to that...i'm guessing the rat shack would be useless at 1 meter or less...i'll check this out... I had a single tc3k powered with the ep1500 (bridged 4 ohms) and it would clip on the same scene at 114 dB...so i've increased headroom and halved excursion, though this application is still amp limited with 1200w/channel...the drivers just want more, though there is only about 3 dB left to find with a second ep2500...i guess 121 dB at the seats...at this level of output, it's hard to justify...i probably prefer to keep the reduced excursion/distortion and call it a day *wink...the dual will chew on a single ep2500 all day long...and safe with no high pass filter On Master and Commander, i'm still trying to find the limit of output for the 30 Hz barrage...113 dB is not the limit, just a quickie. I did find an air leak around one of the connectors...it was with a 10 Hz sine wave @ 110 dB...so once i've sealed it, i'll take some new readings Mechanically, the TC-3000 is pretty quiet at speed, with the high roll surround, and now i won't need to drive as hard using two...I have'nt noticed any power compression, rather, i have'nt noticed sub spl lagging behind the MV with program material, the amp goes into clipping first...a very good sound signature with this subwoofer, as it is .5 Q...it absolutely will not boom...i'll be sure to post more data as i experiment.

stuffing? we don't need no stink'in stuffing...lol[] Seriously, the sub was lined with 1" foam (from Walmart) between all the braces (tedious job btw) and that's it.

better make it one K2 per channel...peak for these drivers is 2.5kW and 1kW continuous...lots of coil in the gap...adding the second driver, i've halved the excursion but, wired for 1.4 ohms, i can clip the ep2500 with ease...the SWII "first fly-by is recorded so hot that i can't get past -10 MV without clipping...and the output is 118 dB @ 3.5 meters with EQ...The ep2500 has gone about it's duty even though it's running a shade less than 2 ohms.

my Klipsch theater solution is slowly evolving into something to be proud of. I'm now using the Synergy 6-1/2" sb-2's for mains "and" surrounds...moving the 5-1/4" sb-1's to the presence channels on the Yamaha...maybe i'll upgrade to the Klipsch reference series later.[] The big fish in the fryer, of late, has been a 2x15" critical-Q subwoofer based on the new TC-3000 drivers from TC Sounds. The previous sub, based on the Tumult 15d2 from Adire Audio, lasted all of three days.[] The latest design is a reference level/overkill approach...opposite firing...it's all about "headroom" and the consequent low distortion it offers. With a Q=.5, sloppiness will be kept in check and resonance excitation minimized...a definite concern, given the smaller room size (1800 cu. ft.) and layout peculiarities. The sub was inserted two days ago and testing/calibration is underway. Even with an ep2500 for the power in a 2 ohm load, the sub is surely amp limited...it probably needs one per channel, given the coil geometry of the drivers. Consequently, i'll be researching a more powerful amplifier, perhaps from the Qsc line... SUB NOTES: 5.4 cu. ft. internal (22.5x24x29.5) ~200 lbs. (110 lbs/ cabinet, 90 lbs/ drivers -TC-3000 15") 1.5" walls, 2.25" baffles, (7) .75" braces (1" foam lining) behringer FBQ2496 for sub EQ behringer ECM8000 mic (calibrated) w/Rolls mp13 (phantom power) Performance (so far, with EQ and NO clipping): Master and Commander (ch4): 113 dB @ 3.5 meters (30 Hz barrage after "silence on deck") (118 dB without EQ) Star Wars II "first fly-by": 114 dB @ 3.5 meters (30-50 Hz range) (119 dB without EQ) 18Hz sine wave (REQwizard): 112 dB @ 3.5 - 6 meters (10% 3rd HD) Black Hawk Down "F....Irene": 111 dB @ 3.5 meters (5-20-30 Hz signal) Once i find the limits of "the amplifier", i'll proceed from there... pictures...

that would be the TC-2000 model currently offered by TC sounds...It should easily surpass the Titanic MKIII...in distortion and output...

Two TC-15" in a low Q, sealed 5 cu.ft. ain't bad either...125 dB @ 80 Hz(1/2 sp-1m, 2.4 kW) and about 116 dB @ 20 Hz (1/2sp/1m)...can't wait to hear the finished results with room gain...both of the drivers are on the way and the plans are complete...all that's left is the box to be built.

what is the deal with 12" fosgate pair??? Vented, PR or sealed? Just off my head and from your list, i would take a closer look at the paradigm servo15.V2...in a word, very capable. Your room is only 100 cu. ft. larger than mine and i assure you that a 15" sub of the paradigm's character will hit pretty hard. Using a sealed Tumult 15" as a reference, you can expect 105-115dB at pretty clean levels.

IIRC, the Havoc has an xmax of about 20.5 mm. There was a huge debate about excursion during the preorder stage. I'm not too enamored with them, especially since they abandoned xbl^2 because of a spat with Adire Audio. A sad tale and regrettable for DIY...the avalanche series was "very" popular and cost effective. The newest line-up seems tailored toward car applications...except for the 18" alliance sub, which, i hear, probably won't see the light of day. Soundsplinter is backordered on some of its drivers and so is Adire. These guys just can't seem to keep pace, especially Adire. I think Adire has put DIY on the back burner and is focusing on OEM and other specialty applications. A vacuum exists and someone will surely fill it...tc sounds probably realized this and decided to pounce. Their driver selection is really extensive and they will still do custom work (for a price). If prices stay reasonable and supply meets demand, these dudes are set to give soundsplinter, adire and ascendant audio a black eye. I talked to a guy in Houston who waited 7 months for an Adire Brahma 15"! This is unacceptable to say the least. If something happens with that driver, turnaround is 4-6 weeks "minimum". This is just not good customer service and in many ways it discourages sending these drivers back, not to mention having to pay shipping costs. All i did to the Tumult was resolder the tinsel that was loose and vow not to push it past about 106 dB in the future. All i can say is that if this driver is xmech 44mm capable, then it should'nt be limited by the suspension/tinsel apparatus. I'm still waiting on Dan Wiggins to answer my post about the different tinsel posts. I don't see any numbers on the LMS-4100 Neo, only 700w rms and 34mm xmax, starting at $548. Perhaps you could elaborate on this. This seems like a good compromise between price and performance. The RE XXX broke my heart. The xbl^2 version with 32mm xmax modeled extremely well but i think it's an older version. The new 54mm version retails for about $1600. And while it's nice to have a cutting edge driver, it's not cost effective. The tc-3000 seems like the best option for me as it stands currently...and a pretty good one i might add! A dual LMS-5400 would indeed be a formidable setup for those among us with deep pockets. Let's wait and see the numbers when they come out. The 400 oz magnet is scary. No way to truly tell what the effect will be on BL but i think it's safe to say that it will have high electrical damping (low qts) and may be tailored towards smaller enclosures. This is just a hunch though. I keep having flashbacks about the rls-15 and what it could've been. At 2 cu. ft. internal, the rls-15 would have a Q of 1.4! and well beyond the hope of insulation or polyfill. A shame, hardly any damping at all (.9 qts.). So maybe they are trending toward smaller applications. Let's face it, size is a chief concern for most HT enthusiasts. They can now grab a share of both markets. I just hope that they can keep pace with demand. This is the shot in the arm that DIY desperately needs right now. ciao!

Hello...it depends on the application. For sealed LT/PEQ/BFD the biggest limitation to sub 20 Hz performance is Xmax. The driver simply runs out of stroke. With vented designs, of course, this would'nt be a problem. AAMOF, with 8 dB of boost at 20 Hz i can still only get the tc-3000 to -6 dB @ 20 Hz (1/2 space- 1 meter) . This gives me an f3=28 Hz in a 2 cu. ft. enclosure. The driver reaches the limit of linearity at 500 watts of power. That 34mm is eaten up quite rapidly with an equalized, sealed subwoofer. As the excursion capability of drivers improve, sealed subwoofers may well close the gap with their vented bretheren.

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i personally would go with two tc-2000's

hello jay. It's been a while. The Tumult lives...but at less than 105 dB. Excursions loosened one of the tinsels. I'm reluctant to spend $75 to send it back and wait "who knows how long" for its return. I probably voided the warranty with the resoldering but i resigned myself to using it just for music. It would be too much stress on me trying to get this serviced/replaced etc. and too long a wait. I'm still compiling new photos of the Tumult and Brahma drivers...the scheme is "definitely" different...have a look: So yes, i am finished with Adire...that's where the tc-3000 comes in. I've been searching high and low for an available 15" driver with the right price and parameters. The original plan was to use the $700 JL Audio 13w7 in a 6 cu. ft. enclosure. I looked at Acoupower, RE, Digital Designs, Aurasound, Soundsplinter, Ascendant audio, Exodus, Eclipse etc. Most of these were either cost prohibitive (RE XXX with xbl^2 runs $1600) ,not good enough with the modeling vs. the price, or simply not available. I caught the TC-sounds website on monday and was initially astounded by the driver selection. I really want the LMS-4100 Neo but Kyle at tc-sounds said that it may be a while before it's released. I really wanted the linear motor topology but the tc-3000 has a sensitivity that i don't think the NEO motor will be able to match. They are using massive amounts of BL on the tc-3000 so there is no way you're going to boom this thing in a "sane" enclosure size. The LMS-5400 is the bomb...however, i want to wait and see what the sensitivity will be. Why would one need 3kW rms in a sub driver? Unless the coil was low in sensitivity. Who cares about power compression when the driver sports a 4" voice coil? Remember the RLS series subwoofers? Powerful yes...sensitive no. A huge enclosure was also required for the RLS series...i hope this does'nt turn out to be the case with the higher end offerings. From a DIY standpoint, the LMS-5400 does'nt seem cost effective at first glance. I think that a dual tc-3000 design would come in at the same price and deliver better performance...even without the linear motor. If the 82 dB sensitivity of the lms-4000 is any indication of what to expect with the LMS coil then the tc-3000 and "multiples-of", seem like the best way to go. You could put two in a 4 to 5 cu. ft. enclosure and do some serious damage to the inner ear! (11.3 liters of Vd swept). The lms-4000 does model well but it's only available in 10 and 12" sizes. Jay, that $850-900 is a big lick to take X2...good luck though! Thought you would've had your Tumults by now. ciao!

Wow! I may have to pull the trigger on the tc-3000...too many pluses at $400: 5.6 liters Vd (total swept!) vs. 4.86 liters for the Tumult 15d2 89.2 dB sensitivity vs. 86.9 for Tumult 34mm "linear Xmax" ~44mm(xmech) 2.0 cu. ft. net internal volume (sealed!!!) .578 Q ! perfect! 109.5 dB @ 20 Hz (1/2 space/ 1 meter/ winisd pro) BL ~30 teslameters! copper shorting ring, etc, etc. It models 2 dB higher than my Tumult 15d2 in max SPL. The LMS-4100 NEO won't be released right away and i'm wondering how sensitive it will be and if it will be optimized for small enclosures. Running both the Tumult15d2 and TC-3000 together (10.5 liters Vd) would be incomprehensible...but it's going to happen real soon!...~130 dB in a 1,800 cu. ft. room?[]

Ooops, now i've done it...*giggle*...no,no, no Jay. I meant the front baffle. Had to add another 1.5" because of cut-out errors on the original baffle. I used eight (#6) 2" wood screws to secure and seal along with the weatherstripping. I'll tighten it a bit more until it settles. It's pretty airtight as is though. ZERO resonance from the cabinet so far! I was thinking about using 3" screws for additional support of the new front baffle but titebond is really all i need. After the first 30 minutes of bonding, i was unable to move it at all! No way would i seal the driver with titebond!...lol...sorry for the confusion. My room is on the small side and it has a unique shape. There is a cubby hole which is 6' wide X 10' deep. With the sub sitting corner-loaded in this hole, that part of the room acts as sort of a bass horn. I recorded the 104 dB (28Hz) as it opens into the larger part of the room. I also have the advantage of being able to totally seal the room if i need to. The 20 Hz and 16 Hz readings were taken at >6 meters. The sub is sitting behind the LCD and side-firing. The rear wall reinforces the bass wave so this probably influenced the readings. All of the readings are uncorrected. Not too bad for less than 100 watts of power. I was so impressed with the output of the sub (with the little RCA) that i've taken the klipsch ifi and the m&k out of service. I'll be sending both to ebay shortly. The tumult sounds as articulate as the 8 inchers it has replaced. It pounds at the appropriate moments and is silent otherwise. I expect even better with the marchand bassis on tap for on-the-fly Q adjustments. The only bummer is that i'm back at work so i can't play around with it. I think that positioning and the anti-resonating cabinet has subdued my 75 Hz room node to the point that i can run the crossover at 80 Hz instead of 60. I can already see rb35's in my future...probably next year. For a final tidbit...i was able to exceed, handily, the combined output and clarity of both the previous subs combined...it's not even close! And with less than 100 watts...incredible![]

Thanks Jay. The beast sealed up fine. This caused me the most worry over the past few days. I used black weatherstripping (wal-mart) and the included rubber gasket. No problem! I did'nt even bother screwing the new baffle...i think titebond will suffice...it's pretty darn strong! The enclosure was a b**** to lug around. I did'nt weigh it but i'm pretty sure it's over 100 lbs. I have a few bumps and scrapes from bossing it around. It's definitely a two-man lift now. With my enthusiasm (and patience) for sanding and painting on the wane, i put just three coats of black lacquer on the box. I may add more later once i clear my head. The 3.5" front baffle puts a "serious" muzzle on the driver...the cabinet is whisper quiet! I tested the sub yesterday, and i was seriously impressed. I'm running the sub-out from the yamaha to an older RCA rt2280 receiver via the "multi-channel-in" mode. The RCA sub channel is rated for 80 watts @ 8 ohms/.9% THD @ 1kHz (40-20,000 Hz). I'm not sure how much actual "clean" power i'm getting at 4 ohms but i was surprised by the level of output. I should have some real power by next weekend, then i'll secure the Bassis and BFD to finish the project. In my 1,800 cu. ft. space, i recorded a "clean" 90 dB @ 20 Hz...6 meters from the sub. This is near the back wall at one of two listening positions. I also scored 104 dB @ 28 Hz (~2 meters) and 81 dB @ 16 Hz (6m near rear wall) ,uncorrected, from a digital RS meter. All this from a substandard receiver. I can hardly imagine the output of the ep1500 at it's mono-rated 1400 watts. It's going to be an interesting weekend![]

yeah, whew! is right...i did the cut out, today, at 14 1/8" and the driver still moves around (1/16" on each side)...14" would definitely work best. I'm not going to do another baffle, 14 1/8" will have to suffice. I don't understand why these drivers are'nt real world tested though. I hope that 1.5" will be enough to secure it properly.

i'll tell you what it's NOT!...that's 14 5/8" like my builder did!...stick with 14 1/8" and if it's too small just hull it until it fits. I'm about to glue another 1 1/2" to the front baffle so i have yet to do the cut out but i'll probably go with 14 1/8", as noted above. I think adire calls for 14 1/4" for the tumult driver. Trust me, to see this driver is one thing, to actually lug it around is another. It's pretty massive. It will need as much wood to adhere to as possible. The consensus for a 68 pound driver is to use t-nuts. I'll let you know how it comes out after i cut the hole. I'm not sure about the hole layout.

Just thought i'd post some pics of my object of obsession since November of last year. What was then only envisioned, is now coming to fruition. I'm hoping it will be a nice match with my Synergy sb-2 system. I went straight from 8", all the way to what is arguably the best 15" driver available. The cabinet is a little over the top but i can rest assured that it is quite dead. The 2" front baffle will shortly become over 3" because the builder made the driver cut-out too wide for my taste. A 68 pound driver needs as much wood to adhere to as possible. The walls are 1-1/4" and there are 4 internal braces at 3/4". I've added some foam to the inside but that will be all. The only sound coming from this box is the cone, needless to say! I built an impedance analyzer and i've determined the exact Fb of the box. I will need this for the Marchand Bassis, which will be used to blend the sub into the room. I spurned the idea of an LT circuit...too much trouble and not enough options. The spring clip terminals will also get the axe shortly. I just needed to be able to test the impedance analyzer with the enclosure. I was'nt sure if i'd built it correctly. I'll probably get either the ep1500 or 2500 to bring the beast to life and safeguard against clipping. I'll see then, if i need a Behringer BFD. The box measures 21.5" cubed and 3.3 cu. feet (net) internal volume. Anyways, here are some pics:

i own the mx-70 dual-8 by m&k and although it sounds quite nice with music, HT buffs need not apply. The sealed, low powered sub is not a recipe for acceptable levels of low-distortion bass (even if it is a push-pull design). I'm pretty sure m&k engineer their subs with room gain in mind. I don't think they are designed to be anechoically flat. Their utmost priority is low distortion and flat in-room response, which makes it a rather hit and miss approach for those with mid to large sized rooms. I would venture to say that their dual-12 inch subs would'nt make much fuss against the PB12+ or RSW12 from SVS and Klipsch. I would'nt recommend the m&k's for "serious" HT duty...overdriving them is a distinct possibility for those with visceral bass appetites. The price for two units would be prohibitive for many. While certainly not lacking musically, more can be had for considerably less in both the Klipsch and SVS line. The newer vented designs backed by variable tuning, high excursion drivers, class D and BASH technology, is changing the face of home theater sound and relegating the sealed sub to the quiet corner of the audiophiles. I was initially taken with m&k but ownership has soured a little on me. If sound quality is the "only" concern and price is no object, then by all means, seek out m&k. For the discriminating bang-for-buckers and bassheads...look elsewhere. You've been warned...