Jeff Matthews

That's what I figured - and from a guy that owns and plays both in his system -- Okay, tubers! EDIT: But I guess you'll say poor Duke has a crappy tube.

Okay, Duke, a straight answer please (for once []). If you could drive your Khorns only with the K-2 or the tubes (but not both - i.e. you could only pick one), what would you choose and why?

See! Allan has no idea.

No need. I don't push 400. But I definitely push a heck of alot more than 60. Bottom line is both of the owners of the used Corns and KHorns that I bought had them driven by lower powered amps - 60 watts and in that range. The difference is night and day, and I showed that to the owner of the KHorns. He said he never heard KHorns sound that good. Now, that's 2 out of 2 as for people I bought my Klipsch from, who had no idea. The only others I personally knew with Klipsch Heritage are my brother (who intro'd me to Klipsch) and me, of course. We both know what Klipsch will do - and we both have the amps to make them perform like they were designed - not "jazz brunch." So, that's 2 out of 4 Klipsch Heritage owners I knew who did not know what their Klipsch would do. I maintain there are many on this forum who have Klipsch Heritage and who have no idea what these speakers can do. How do you explain to someone who has no idea? If you are thrilled by less than 150 wpc, then, ignorance is bliss. If you've never heard a 300 wpc amp drive your Heritage, that would explain why you are thrilled. If you have and say it's not as good, either you prefer "brunch" to concerts, or you never drove the more powerful amp hard enough. The Klipsch can take alot more power than people think - and they can make it sound really dynamic and smooth. Of course, I have seen some amps (but only car amps) rated at a gillion watts that sounded like crap, so that's a possibility, too! But there is no substitute for clean, high power. The sales geeks at Home Entertainment (now Tweeter) and other hi-fi shops themselves had no idea. They'd play those $4,000 McIntosh amps at jazz brunch levels and say "Now, THAT was impressive wasn't it?" Poor guys just had no idea - and that's the way it is. Too few know. If only I could show them the concert quality you can get, they'd have a whole new perspective.

Folks, JPM is on spot. Anyone who finds they need to add a sub to KHorns is not hearing what those KHorns can do - period. The KHorns do it all by themselves. The difference between the tubes from what I've been able to gather is that they have less power but sound "oh so nice." So, the difference would seem to be "jazz brunch" vs. "jazz concert." I would maintain there is no 40 or 60 watt tube that could even remotely touch the dynamics delivered by my Crown - no way! You have speakers capable of 400 watt peaks, and if you have a 60 watt amp, you just stuck a big governor on them. It'd be like putting a governor on a Corvette and limiting its speed to 60 mph. Ever heard a 200 watt thump against a KHorn woofer? Ain't no replacing that through a 60 watt anything. Songs are comprised of a multitude of peaks and lows. With weaker amps, you miss all the differences in note levels. You should hear a mile of difference between notes, but since you have that "governor" on there, you hear 100 yards' difference. Just ain't no comparison. A 200-watt sound next to a 5 watt sound is nowhere close to a 60 watt sound next to the same 5 watt sound. So, dynamics are lost. Then, without the difference, you certainly have no way to appreciate it as much. So what do you want - "brunch" or "concert?" There are too many folks on here who've been to the brunch alot and think it's a concert. That's the problem going on in this debate. As I stated previously, I had to show the seller of my KHorns what they would do. He put on a Marantz, and I insisted he audition them with a better amp, which we did. Then, he says he never heard the KHorns like that before. Damn right! Not enough people know what these can do.

Thank you, JPM. You are a wise person. I think my example is dead on, except I'd add that the number of notes in a song, multiplied by the number of instruments, is in the thousands. So without the headroom, very much will be missed. The whole song will sound different. Headroom is not just for gimmick notes or highlights. It affects the whole song.

Actually, I did have an EQ before. It went away after I got my Crown - no lie. Here's more of a mathematical/visual way to show what you're missing... Music is a combo of sounds at various levels. The variance in levels is constantly changing - that's what is meant by dynamics. Now, picture each of the notes (by arbitray assignment of levels): 10 40 100 30 70 240 10 15 400 30 60 120 130 20 20 200 250 200 Convert these to height where the first note starts on the left, and each note is to the right of the preceding note. In other words, you'd have a graph with a bunch of vertical lines - some taller than others. Go ahead and draw it out for a good exercise. Won't take 20 seconds. Now, draw a horizontal line at 65 straight through all those vertical lines. What you're missing is everything above the horizontal line at 65. The result by capping everything at 65 is loss of dynamics. An EQ will not replace that.

Or..... you could think of it this way. With the KHorns, you have a fierce lion in a cage. Assuming your perception that the sound is not "suffering," okay, fine - but your not letting the lion out of the cage. An EQ would be no help. You can smile and be delighted at the ferocity of the lion behind the bars, but your reaction is different when the bars are gone.

That's where you're mistaken. The EQ will not effect the dynamics like what you're suggesting. You can raise the bass level, and you'll get more bass - but it still won't punch. You need power for that. ...... And you still keep contending you don't hear any "suffering sound." You do. You don't know what suffering is. It's in the lack of dynamics. You need raw power to make the bass punch. That goes for the mids, too. Play with an EQ, but you'll never get there. I could give you another analogy. The "clap" sound in Rush's "YYZ." Raw power transfers from a "clap" to a "POW!!!!!" But alas, my analogy will fail, because you will tell me you are already hearing a "POW!!!!" ................ You are not, and you think you are. So, go get the EQ so you can start a new thread on what you're still missing. [] LOL!!!

BTW, I agree with BillH. But, if you want to know what "better" sounds like, that's a different story. I think it is just hard for you to imagine how your sound might be better. I can't tell you in any more words because they all start becoming like a Thesaurus. Nor can I tell you in any different words how to get there. A different amp is the only way. If there wasn't a difference, do you think I would have posted my question re: cranking more volume through KHorns? That was my question - no agenda on my part. I just experienced it and asked why.

Yes, you're wrong. No offense, though. You DO hear the negs, and that's my point. You think you don't because you don't know what better is. Did you not read my post regarding why I could push more through KHorns than Corns, yet it seemed so much clearer and effortless?

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/648947/ShowPost.aspx Here's the effect of what I am trying to explain to you. This was me inquiring why when I went from Corns to KHorns, I could push more volume and it sounded so effortless. This was me long before we got into the debates on amps in your threads, so you can discount any agenda here - becase it was ME asking the questions and doing the perceiving. This is the kind of question you would have asked once you switch amps, except we told you before you made the switch.

Here's something more about your quote above. The distortion, noise, laboring IS THERE and you do hear it. You just think it sounds great because you have not heard great. If you turn your HK up higher, things in the house will fall off shelves and your ears will get trashed. That's YOUR description. Now, imagine at the same loudness, it sounds soooooo... effortless - like you have plenty more room to go. No stuff falling off shelves. No ear-trashing. Yet, it's just as loud. You CAN go louder without the perception of stuff falling off shelves and trashing your ears. When you do with a good amp, you'll go louder and you won't hear it as "so loud," you'll hear it as "so clean, smooth and powerful."

Just saw your most recent post come in. You are not hearing it as clearly and chest-pounding as it can be. You hear what you say is "great" because you don't know the difference. That's all there is to it. Do you think they make all these higher powered amps for nothing? Again, my old and long-gone Marantz 1180DC would have knocked the socks off your HK. My Crown knocks the socks and toenails off my old and long-gone Marantz. Ergo: that's why it's long-gone. Your HK is decent, so don't be disappointed in it when you hear what you're missing. Just be glad you finally found out what the difference is.

Here's a link to the K-1. BIN price of $675. You might recall Duke has a K-2. When you see what the $675 Crown will do compared to your $650 HK, you'll be surprised at what an additional $25 worth of gear sounds like. [] I am sure others make good amps that are comparable to the Crown, but just for grins, try out one of the Crown K series (or Microtech or Macrotech, but the K's look more sleek). You can find these at musicians' stores, like Guitar Center, etc. Maybe, they'd let you try before you buy. Maybe they have a used one for half the price or less. BTW, you need to know that these musicians' stores are serious hagglers. You can haggle for a deeper discount than you might think. Example, I spent $840 for my Microtech 1200, which I think was supposed to be $1200 or so. Also, you need a pre-amp for these. A decent used pre-amp ought to run you $200. http://cgi.ebay.com/Crown-K1-Audio-Balanced-Current-1500W-Power-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ7377019209QQcategoryZ64451QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yep! Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted. You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp. And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear. 1. WHY is my $650 HK receiver not good enough for khorns? 2. WHY is said receiver inferior to an older version selling on ebay for $50-75 bucks or so? 3. What is wrong with my receiver that you're saying it wouldn't have enough power and 'clean' power? 4. Why do you consider my receiver a VW? (actually, LOL what's wrong with VW's?) (BTW - I said I DID hear the bell on that song. I never heard it before. This is good). 1. KHorns handle 100 watts continuous and 400 watt peaks. Remember the boom and punch you wanted. Do you think you'll get more of that with 65 watts through your HK or 200 watts through something else? Don't forget. Bass peaks, too. And, I'll bet you're missing alot of peak differentials once you turn the HK way up. What you have, as I said, will sound decent, but you'd be surprised what sound you get when you've got clean power of 5 times what you're running now. 5x the power does not equate to 5 x the loudness, so I'm not talking way louder. I'm talking somewhat louder but with more dynamics - I guess you could call it "body." The HK will not deliver the power needed to accomplish that. When you crank, your HK strains, and at its limits, it will begin to blend as if there are too many of the same level and not enough peaks and dips. You might not know what the strain sounds like since you haven't heard the difference. The answer would be that it is more dull, monotone and distorted. When I crank with my Crown, it is clean and effortless.... and I don't have to crank it nearly all the way up like you would the HK. Consider this, you have peaks and lulls in songs. If you are running 60 watts, changing to 300 watts does not change the way the song sounds like you think it might. The lulls are still quiet, but the peaks punch and kick. Recall I said earlier I used to run a 90 watt/channel Marantz 1180DC through my Corns years ago? Not even the 90 watts could drive the Corns like my Crown.... and that was a very good Marantz among the Marantz line. If it wasn't true, I'd have never quit with the old Marantz and went to the Crown. I do not swap around components. I've had my Corns for 20 years. I've had my Crown for 20 years. I've had my Yamaha pre-amp and Onkyo's for about 19 years. And I was done. Until this year when I bought Klipschorns. From the buying pattern, you ought to see that I would have never left Marantz for Crown except for the serious difference. 2. I didn't know that it was. The original was not my comment. 3. See # 1. 4. Not that VW's are bad. Okay, you just bought speakers that retail for $7500. The HK was never designed with anything near Klipschorns in mind. They built the HK thinking of makes like Bose and Polk. From what I understand, for example, Crown PA amps are used by touring band professionals (I think Sting used Crown, and I am sure other well-known artists did, too). Nobody I know of ever did a concert using HK receivers. Again, that does not mean they are not good. It means they serve decently for the average consumer's living room at the average consumer's levels. Not that you need to change, but if you want to hear the full capability of the sound of the KHorn, you will need to change. If you can't imagine wanting more than you already get out of those KHorns, then, stay where you are. But, to quote a famous band, B-b-b-b-baby, you ain't seen n-n-n-n-nothin' yet!

Fish, you're killing us, man!

"Nowhere Man" by the Beatles. Don't beat yourself up, amigo. Read my post. BTW, I'd respond with "That's good. Me? I'm still waiting for that right person that I've never met, yet." Or, use "soul mate" if you want to get 'em squirming. [] But as for you - and not what the old gf's think or do - be patient, stay who you are, and that perfect one will jump up and grab you when you least expect it. Next (This one's for you, Michael): "I work hard every day of my life I work till I ache my bones At the end I take home my hard earned pay all on my own - I get down on my knees And I start to pray Till the tears run down from my eyes Lord - somebody - somebody ..... Got no feel, I got no rhythm I just keep losing my beat I'm ok, I'm alright Ain't gonna face no defeat I just gotta get out of this prison cell Someday I'm gonna be free, Lord!"

Think of the old gf's calling as "flattering." Even if the have new bf's, believe me, there's still something in the back of their minds that made them call to rub it in. I'd venture it's because they like something about you better. Otherwise, why would they bother?

Not intended to deflate your plans, but I wanted to be sure that if you mounted speakers on the roll bars, that you really don't need the roll bars for safety issues. If you thought you might roll, your head hitting a mounted speaker would not feel very good.

Good to see you this morning, Michael. Merry Christmas! Yep on the band. You can get the title. Don't get me feeling "blue" on this beautiful Christmas morning.

2 days and no guess. That's too long. Fish, where you been? Try this: "Out in the street it's 6 am, another sleepless night Three cups of coffee, but I can't clear my head from what went down last night" Name that Tune!

Don't later say "I didn't tell you so." Have fun!

Yep! Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted. You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp. And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear.

To prove my point, here's my downstairs set-up. Corns with a Marantz 2230 receiver. I used to run my Crown to drive the Corns until my recent purchase of KHorns. We have an old Marantz 2230 I hooked up downstairs to drive the Corns. Note: the link below provides some specs of the 2230 - particularly, it is 60watts continuous - only 5 watts less than your HK. http://www.superseventies.com/marantz.html That said, there is absolutely NO - AND I MEAN NO - comparison to driving the Corns through my Crown. Yes, the 60 watt Marantz is still decent, but I will tell you the difference would be like the speed comparison between a Buick Century and a Corvette. This not my opinion, so I will not add any "IMO's" or "IMHO's." This is fact. See for yourself. You do not know what you are missing with those KHorns! Have a Merry Christmas, and I hope you get to hear the difference soon. EDIT: I looked more carefully at the Marantz specs on another site, and it actually is 30w per channel x 2 channels, for 60 watts. Still, you have not heard the KHorns properly. Best of all, you can test my advice for free and with minimal effort. Just get someone to bring over a good amp.