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Thanks Gary, Looks like there's no straight section on the return fold of the horn. The ones I used to have many years ago were not factory.....looks like someone made them using a LS as a starting point. Has anyone compared these two bass bins side by side.....I'd be keen to hear from anyone who has compared the two. . Thanks, John

....and lastly 2404H_Filter_Schematic.pdf

....and again 2123J_Schematic.pdf

and more 2123.pdf

Here's some info on John's posts

So, my question is, disregarding the different mid range horn used in the Belle, how would the low frequency sound compare to the LS......and does the Belle doghouse go in a straight line from the front of the cabinet to the rear?

I wonder if you can give me your opinion on the sound of the bass between the La Scala & the Belle. What would the difference (if any) be in the bottom end. I read in a thread here somewhere that the LS has a 10db dip in the frequency response at around 500 Hz, due to the small straight section of the bass horn. If you were crossing over at 400 Hz with ALK uni's, is this inconsequential? Also wondering about the physical dimensions of the actual bass cabinet. I had a pair many years ago but they had a straight section in the bass horn as per attachment Belle Klipsch Plans, unlike some I found on the forum Klipsch-Belle-Plan-3-3. Does the factory model go in a straight line from the front of the cabinet to the rear of the horn?

Not aware of anything that will measure the excursion........I've hit mine with pretty much everything & they survived just fine.....having said that, I believe it's only an issue when playing extremely low frequencies which can cause the woofer to be overdriven.....maybe I just don't have any material that has subsonics in it?

I tried to get an answer to this also before I built mine, but had no success...........I can say that I have no other protection for the woofer & have driven it very hard with no adverse effects, even with fairly low program material.

You could always try just raising the W Bin & see if you think that has affected the sound of the mids & tops before you commit to the bass reflex cabinet..............the ported bottom end mod for the LS really improves the low end response of this system.......those who've tried it have never gone back to stock! [].........understand that it isn't going to be the same as a sub.........my preference though is for that ultra clean bottom end that only a sorted full range system can provide (short of spending $10K on a sub)!!!

Nice combo! I never had a chance to hear CJ but their stuff always looks so cool. I think it's the first time I see a Naim CDplayer as the source of a horn system (why?), can you comment about the way it sounds? I've always been drooling for the long time discontinued CD3.5... how does the ported LS sound, by the way? I just love the Naim.....it's the first CD player I've had that makes the music sound like music & not digital noise!!! It's the most analogue sounding piece of digital gear I have heard........& the port for the LS makes a huge difference to the bottom end.....still clean as ever with that huge slam, but now with a lot more depth & authority.

I used to play professionally (drums) many moons ago (& may even be starting up again on a part time basis in the not too distant future) & these tweeters really do have the most accurate portrayal of cymbals I have heard, in fact, the complete sound of the LS is why I chose to go this way........the have the most realistic sound of percussion that I have heard from a loudspeaker system.

....and here's the new front end.......Ayre V3 (100 watts RMS per channel)......Conrad Johnson PV-15.....Naim CD-5X....really transformed the sound of the LS's.

Side view.......finish is 2 pac satin black........new tweeters are JBL 2404.........brilliant sound from these speakers.

Another shot

Just thought I'd share these pics of the final design for my tweeter stands Also a couple of shots of the new front end & source.

Don't be too hasty about replacing your pre amp, thats one mighty fine piece of equipment & should sound excellent with your speakers............Has it always sounded bass shy?...................if yes, then maybe there is something wrong..............if not.................maybe the valves need replacing?..................is the bias OK?......................what about your incoming power supply, is it delivering the full 240 volts? Many valve amps won't sound correct if not fed the correct voltage...........Cheers,'John [*-)]

Phenton, I agree with Al.........don't bother with the K400...............I was going to go the way you are suggesting.............805 multi's with GPA 399's using the standard 400/6K crossover points, but when I upgraded to the K55 dual phase plug driver mated to an ALK Trachorn through a Sonicap ALK Universal, I was wondering what all the fuss was about.......................I've heard plenty of 2 inch JBL mid drivers mated to appropriate horns & my combo is not lacking at all.....particularly when used with a JBL 2404 tweeter...................Must confess I've never heard the GPA 399/390 with a multi................that will be my next upgrade in a year or so as I'm sure it will be the real deal..........Cheers, John

As a side topic of conversation (not to derail the main topic here...) have you ever thought of taking a La Scala bass bin and turning it around backward to face into a corner? The top of the unit must, of course, be able to be turned 180 degrees from the output of the bass bin to do this. You could even stack two pairs of bins on top to get more net sensitivity with lower distortion.The only issue that I can see is making sure that there isn't anything between the two La Scalas to adversely affect the stereo imaging, since they will be lower than Khorns (assuming that a single pair of La Scalas are used in corners) and thus more susceptible to furniture/electronics racks getting in the way. One could even set up small false corners to increase the corner loading effect without seriously detracting from the decor or the sonic performance (e.g., diffraction, higher-order modes, etc.). La Scalas used in this way could be called "the new Shorthorn". I'd bet that they would sound great--and the price is right...Just add your K-402 or K-510 horn with whatever compression driver suites your fancy, with your choice of active or passive crossover (Dx38s go for about $400-$600 on ebay). Wait..wait...I think that I remember someone here (from Maine) that did just that-- and showed pictures of it. Chris Don't waste your time..........yes, I've tried this too & initially thought it was great........after extended listening I found that the system had lost it's coherency..........the bottom end was awesome, but the imaging & the blend between the bottom end & the mids & tops just didn't gel together. I ended up with the bass reflex cab underneath & this is the best blend.

Very interesting..............progress is coming along nicely..........I'll be very interested in your thoughts of the sound when you have them complete. Great job. []

At the time I was considering going to Altec 805 multicells which would mate to the 288's beautifully....however now I feel I don't need to.....................Yes, I agree the Sonicaps should sound better, as they are more expensive.......& fine, use the Solens in the more economical stuff, but don't tell customers to use the Solens because they won't hear a difference with the Sonicaps...........I can only tell you what my ears hear & there is a night & day difference.......this would have saved me a lot of heartache if I had just used the Sonicaps in the first place.......they mate beautifully with your uni's & Trachorn's & the dual phase plug drivers.[]

Well, Bob's dual phase plug drivers have arrived & I have to say that I'm thoroughly impressed. No more peakiness in the mids or nasty resonances, just smooth, clear sound. Bob also sent me some Sonicaps for replacements for the Solens in my ALK uni kit crossovers. When I originally built these I was told that I wouldn't hear any difference between the Solens used in the kit & the Sonicaps used in the pre built model. All I can say is if you have Solens in your uni then you need to change them out for a better quality cap. My JBL 2405 slots have always sounded very sibilant & "spitty", but not anymore. These caps have a smoothness & clarity that must be heard. I'm not saying they're the best you can get, but they make the Solens sound like 30 year old caps. With the combination of dual phase plug drivers & the new upgraded caps the sound is really something special & after 18 months of experimenting I can finally leave well enough alone & simply enjoy the music. I certainly have no desire to go the larger format route now & that has saved me a bundle of money. Although I haven't had the large format drivers & horns in my system, I have heard quite a few systems running JBL & similar 2 inch drivers & I don't believe that my current set up is in any way lacking. A great result all around....thanks again Bob!!!

After much researching, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the Great Plains Audio 390 drivers mated to an Altec Multicell Horn & keep running them 3 way. Looks like the Altec 805 multi is the best compromise between physical size & reaching down to the crossover point. I'll change the crossover to 500Hz ES & leave them 3 way. That should open up the mid range considerably, whilst tightening & cleaning up the bass. HF Horns Multicellular Horns.pdf HF Horns Multicellular Horns.pdf

Yes, after much searching I found the same thing......I already had braces fitted to my cabs, but they didn't come all the way to the front of the cabinet.....so I used an additional layer of 3/4" ply on both the external sides & the rear with a viscous glue, sound deadener, between them....problem cured.....and now the bottom end is ultra clean & powerful.....cleaned up the mids as well. The standard cabinet is simply not rigid enough to handle the forces generated by the woofer. Once you get rid of all the resonances all you get is pure, clean sound.[]

FWIW.....Seems to me you're trying to overcome a problem with a band-aid...........why not just get rid of the resonance & be done with it.........you need to use constrained layer damping & braces to fully cure this.......you haven't really heard your La Scala's until you've done that........all the measurements in the world won't tell you what they sound like when the resonance is removed.....only that you've got a resonance!!