spamhead

Are you headed for Lebanon yet?!?!?!?? I would think that anyone who seems to be such a stickler for accuracy as you are would at least suggest an apples to apples audio test, it would be easy to overwhelm Brad with the audio setup in Lebannon, but can you honestly say that he would be hearing only speaker differences? come on now, he is bi amping with a couple of $250.00 solid state amps, You are sending him into an environment that is much more high end, I would guess some costly single ended amps like what I use, if you really want to know about the cabinets and their build quality that he is listening to I suggest you call Bob Crites, he has a set in basic black just like Brads, and Bob will tell you what Tony Reed and Dee Edwards said when they listened to his bass bins. Bob told me that Tony Reed stated "they sound just as good as every other set of good jubes sound like" and I'm betting if you are as big a Klipsch affictionato as you sound like you probably know who Tony Reed is. My point is why send someone in to an audio environment for a listening test where much better electronics are used and then hope you send that person home kicking rocks while you are telling him its all his inferior speakers,!

I am aware of that I also have built 1" and 2" throat trachorn copies after I was unable to purchase them from ALK because of limited availability from Martinelli sound, and you are correct you must use a different flare rate, and I also use Edgars formula for area expansion on those flare rates, what I was stating was that it is obvious that the vtrac is copied from the trachorn I my reasoning is that of all the many many horns and their different flares that resemble each other the vtrac and the trachorn are the only two that really look just about like the same horn basically constructed alike with a little difference in the bracing of the driver and that both by coincidence are an upgrade for the stock khorn hi hat. I for one have no problems with the vtrac, I was aluding to some that they bbq one for one thing and then applaud another for the same. Spamhead. The Vtrac from Greg has no gross "copy" of the ALK. It was designed from the ground up to suit his purpose to fit in the Khorn the way he wanted. He knew the max depth of the horn, width and height that he could put in a new baffle that would allow placement of his preferred Beyma tweeter to the side of the midhorn. With knowing those measurements.....a pure tractrix midhorn was configured. Basically.....a tractrix horn with close to a 2:1 width to height ratio in which the back of the horn and driver wouldn't be "deeper" than a Khorn while the midhorn is paced off centered (like ALK's Trachorn placement). It just so happened, a 253.5Hz Fc horn would calculate to fit in there and the mouth changed slightly from 2:1 ratio. The expansion for the horn was "similar" to Bruce Edgars described "The Midrange Horn". However....Edgars described way of making a tractrix expansion is inexact. There is a different "trick" involved to make Greg's which I do believe expands with tractrix down to the square mm. Greg posted how the Vtrac was designed on his website. The only thing similar I see to the trachorn is that his horn is "tractrix" and the build technique/assembly could be the same. http://www.dcchomes.com/gregstractrixcalculator.html As you already know, I think, is that these pure tractrix horns sound fantastic for mids. There have been several chit-chatted on the forum. I'm sure they are all similar in Sound....Greg's was designed in the same way but to fit his plan to fit in the Khorn the way he wanted. jc l JC the question I ask is did Greg design that horn having never seen the alk trachorn? If so then I am incorect saying that it is a copy, however I have a hard time believing this. I took Edgars formula and looked at others and when I made the horns they ended up looking just like a trachorn, both the one and two inch models, my two inch looks closer to the vtrac and the one inch a little more like the trachorn. Now I didn't have a trachorn to measure and mic it but in my opinion my tractrix horns are still trachorn copies because the thought or inspiration came from seeing one before I built it. If the vtrac was envisioned and designed from the beginning to make an alternative for the khorn high hat and he had never seen the trachorn then you could call it origional otherwise it is in one way or another a copy.

I am aware of that I also have built 1" and 2" throat trachorn copies after I was unable to purchase them from ALK because of limited availability from Martinelli sound, and you are correct you must use a different flare rate, and I also use Edgars formula for area expansion on those flare rates, what I was stating was that it is obvious that the vtrac is copied from the trachorn I my reasoning is that of all the many many horns and their different flares that resemble each other the vtrac and the trachorn are the only two that really look just about like the same horn basically constructed alike with a little difference in the bracing of the driver and that both by coincidence are an upgrade for the stock khorn hi hat. I for one have no problems with the vtrac, I was aluding to some that they bbq one for one thing and then applaud another for the same.

Wrong Again Coytee, YOU need to now check your facts, I HAVE NOT solicited any sales or customers on this site (or others) and have told nobody my name or how to purchase anything from me, you need to re read this thread, I have only come in defense of others who have made copies wheather for personal use or to pass on to someone else! I have seen pics that have been placed by Greg Roberts of a dozen or so of his vtrac horns ready for sale and he did that in response to another forum members (probably a buddy of his) sending him a pm asking what have you been up to lately or the like, now to me that is saying been building these horns I'm selling and while it gets by the forum rules by the skin of its teeth is it commercialism or bad ethics you decide, I think it is smart advertising, but I have done none of it period. I have been ridiculed for making a copy of a product that is still in production, what say you to the FACT that the vtrachorn is a direct copy of the ALK trachorn that I might add is still also in production, doesn't according to your previous statement steal a potential sale from Al Klappenburger? I mean come on now, what is good for the goose is good for the gander! what about his update kits he sells on ebay for the khorn, how dare he change Pauls design and make money at it! Hogwash I say, power to him if his customers are satisfied who cares, but my question is why do you and others allow some to do what you incorrectly acuse me of doing? Why is your opinion that it is ok for some and not others? Is it that they have been around long enough to kiss the right butts and get some support on the forum for their indeavors and others are ostrisized for even appearing to be doing the same? Isn't this attitude much like the snobs at the local countryclub? But once again you need to check the facts, I have solicited no sales or prospects on this site!

Coytee come on, have you forgotten forum dogs attacked and barbequed a guy name Swinhall down in Texas a few years ago for making Klipsch copies? And just think of it he has the audacity to have a showroom and copies of khorns, lascalla's and heresy speakers on site! That dirty dog, what really sticks out is that Paul Klipsch wasn't intimidated by him, he even sold him the drivers to do it with back in the sixties, when Swinhall or maybe it was Swinwall sent him another letter telling Paul that he planned on making an updated la scalla Mr. Klipsch not only sold him more drivers but told him to send him some pics of his work, now if you check out what is said on the net and the historians can correct me if I and my computer is reading incorrectly it is not sure or stated by this Swinhall guy if it change any thinking but just the next year the Belle klipsch came out, and strangely enough if looked just like his design and the pics he sent to Paul, you make your own decisions, it really doesn't matter to me what I am saying is how will a few sets of speakers affect Klipsch if this guy with his showroom and production facilities down in I believe Big Springs, Tx haven't affected them or put them and the Heritage line out of business how possibly could I? If Paul Klipsch wasn't aggrivated of intimidated by him (and maybe the historians will correct me and say that it did make Paul mad, if so oh well, I am wrong again) why should so many forum members be? Maybe I should shoot this guy an email and tell him he has been exposed again and to watch out some of the extreamist forum dogs may come to burn him out vigilante style! I don't try to sell my cabs on this or any other forum, it has been just a few sets by word of mouth with people who can't afford the origional, I think that Paul allowed it because he understood that emulation is the sincerest form of flattery. My speakers aren't perfect and I tell buyers that, come to think of it there was ONE perfect thing ever on this earth and THEY KILLED HIM! maybe their were some forum members in that pack also!

Coytee, I will say first off you are entitled to your opinion, but you are dead wrong when you say that the couple of or the couple more cabs I will probably build affect Klipsch, sorry but those who purchased these from me will never be able to purchase the real thing- point blank! Second wake up and look around, everyone is, tell that to Mercedes or BMW, everytime they bring out a new look or style in autos next year GM, Hyundai, and Kia have one available that is hard to distinguish, they just call it something else so in the future when I sell a set or two I will call it the ULTIMATE (I don't think dana white and the MMA will mind) and if someone says ah that's just a jubilee copy I will just say you really think so? Tell that same line to Steve Jobs at apple, Tell it to Bill Gates and he will tell you cry me a river while I go back to work cause the hounds are at the door! And finally flaunting is a very poor word, I have FLAUNTED NOTHING, I only responded when so many attacked ssctrojan for building jube copies (and I agree that his attitude has become to harsh just like the many here on the forum that have attacked him, and further agree that this isn't the place to sell his wares!) I made some opinions of mine public about the way I perceived what Paul Klipsch had said to me and people think I have slammed and disrespected him-not the case I have made my respect for the man well known. Most of these forum hovering junkyard dogs that attack my statements on testing (and I will test and make public those findings to this forum) and show their ignorance when they just don't understand that it comes down to the fact that they are a objectivist (dogs you can go to the dictionary) and I am a subjectivist plain and simple! While I believe in testing and it's validation I do not let it tell me if I like what I hear or not I let my ears do that, that is why I listen with tube amps, the specs are crappy, but I still like what I hear! I don't discount what the objectivist tells me I just have the capacity to not allow it to make my decisions for me and tell me if I like something, In the end I will say it is RARE and the dogs need to remember as their fur brissles up their backs I said rare not NEVER that I meet an objectivist that can be happy with much for very long! Unless of course they regularly are going back and forth to the spec sheet to validate to themselves what they are hearing! As for me I am far to busy to spend the time on this forum argueing with all the forum dogs, and in retrospect it makes me unhappy and grumpy like them, and that in it self bothers me the most because I am known in my arena as a very happy and continted man!

lol, that was hilarious For what it's worth, you can get a rather powerful acoustic measurement rig for about $200 provided you already own a laptop. I also just wanted to add a quick comment that if the extent of one's experience with measurements is marketing specs, then I would humbly suggest gaining some more experience with real measurements before commenting on their validity. I would also suggest that any situation where one feels a measurement doesn't correlate to audible perception, then you are interpreting the measurement incorrectly. In fact, that which defines a good measurement is how it is audibly perceived...so by definition it's impossible for something to measure bad and sound good, or measure good and sound bad. Dr. Who, I have the laptop but cannot find the equipment on the net or am not looking in right place, can you give me brand names or some place to find this test equipment you speak of? thanks

Coytee, maybe I would benefit from knowing who JRH is! but it would not change the fact that my conversation with The Man himself (PWK) caused me to make my own conclusions however subjective or incorrect they may be, and you are correct in that I mean him no disrespect, and the statement about this situation befalling me puzzles me, I will soon as possible make tests to try and validate to this forum that I am not ripping people off in the cabinets I have so much fun constructing wheather they are klipsch or JBL copies, I certainly don't make much financial compensation for it, not even in the same spectrum with what I am paid for building or finishing interior cabinets or woodwork and decorative mouldings. What does continue to perplex me is that so many are sticklers for testing while I agree it validates the cabinet or speaker I remember how bad tube amps and most of the mc Intosh equipment test yet they still sound good, if my ears like it and Its what I can afford and am happy does anything else really matter? I wonder if the people on this forum that have been so enraged about my attitudes about testing being the final word when they go and buy a car and someone tells them how much horsepower it has do they have to see a dyno sheet or can they just say its fast enough for me? When you test drive a cadillac do you have to take it over an obstacle course to be able to say I think it rides nice enough? When any consumer purchases anything no matter how subjective or debatable his opinion in his world does anything else really matter? It seems so many on this forum want to tell or convince others that they really aren't satisfied if it wasn't tested in a way that they agree with, and I for one simply don't buy into that philosophy. If my ears are tricking me then maybe I am perfectly satisfied in my dilusion, if I think that my 96 volvo turbo runs like a porsche and rides like a lincoln then who am I hurting? And in the final outcome I have probably found a way to be much happier in life than the others especially the cinics.

Sorry, but I did not say or infer that in this case history is a liar, or that you are, everyone attests to your acuracy, I respect what Mr. Hornzak says about you, maybe I am wrong when I concluded his saying to ME that they didn't have much of a way of testing them then inferred that compared to what they were doing at the time of our discussion or now how they test made that seem like not much of a way, I took it literally and if that makes me ignorant or a bad person or in need of chastisement from all of the friendly good folks here on the honorable klipsch forum so be it, but I really think remembering my discussion with the man and legend like it was yesterday I feel he would read this post and say ah come on whats all the fuss about, that is the man I remember speaking to. I just can't figure why everyone on this forum gets so neurotic and takes things as an insult or attack on Paul Klipsch, I'm not certain if I have ever met anyone with a higher respect for the man than myself! Sorry if I hit a nerve.

history has been proven to be a liar many times, my question is are you quoting from a biography that some one other than Paul Klipsch wrote? I am quoting from statements made by the man himself to a couple of college boys who were amazed at the speakers he had designed, maybe he was trying to instill hope and drive in my generation when asked how he did it his response was "alot of hard work making speakers that were crude things in the beginning,make one and then change it a little, we didn't have much way of testing back then, but when people smiled and elbowed each other in the ribs we knew we were going the right way", if you talked with the man and he told you different then I will assume he was trying to give me anitiative, if however you are repeating what has been repeated before... then I choose to believe what the man said, I am sure of a few things and that Paul Klipsch was no liar, so I will choose to believe what he said, you read into it what you will.

If you figure the amount of time that it takes to build these cabs your not far off from that being what I am doing, I see that you are still listening to heresy's. I got rid of mine after college, maybe I can interest you in a speaker upgrade!

Thanks for the response, I would like to test and was under the assumption it was very expensive and although I am not a financially rich person it appears that with your help as to what software I need I could see to rounding it up and do some testing because I would like to know about the jube cabs, I have a pretty good idea about some of the wood horns because they are (horns) all basically some form or another copies of previous horns, I think any new design or bend is about used up. One horn that everyone has liked made me momentarily puff up my chest and begin to breathe a little to deeply until I realized it is basically about a 225hz copy of the bentwood 200, so much for my design prowess, I will stick to what I do best use my hands in a manner taught to me by other skilled craftsmen, I will look forward to your insight along with any others on test equipment, as far as your phone ringing off the hook- sorry about that but it just goes to show ya can't believe alot of what is said on the forums, first off contrary to popular belief I AM NOT using the cullison plans, I did build one set from them but have opted for the plans I previously mentioned on here last night, and its obvious that your phone callers are liars because I don't wear undies, I am a free swinger! LOL!

I agree Dean, and I will offer you the same appology that I gave 2A3 Mike last night and I do so because I included you in a heated response I gave him last night about attitudes, I hope you haven't been offended by my words. And I do agree with you both on the area of testing our horns or cabs that we sell I just am saying that we cannot sell them at prices that are drastically less and also purchase test equipment and build sound chambers. And from what I have studied about sound tests if your test mic is 1/4 or 1/2 an inch moved from your last test its invalid, so these things along with funds are what prevent testing at this point until more is learned. Those who were around Paul Klipsch in the beginning of the khorn have told me that his first ten sets were all different and all with different dimensions, he had no test equipment either so he relied on his ears and the opinions of audiophiles he trusted until he made the money to afford better. KLH Dynaco and Advent were all companies started by people who started in garages by people who weren't neccesarily trying to get rich, just doing what they enjoyed. And once again you are correct about the jube plans floating around, I have a set that one speaker doesn't fit perfectly in the corner (off by about 3/4") and the other off by about 1/2" that come from plans which aren't correct, do they sound the same? no one will know unless they are tested and probably won't ever be. They will however make someone finer reproduction that they will ever have the opportunity for because of their budget they are on. And yes they are copies, knockoffs or what ever you wish to call them, they are unlike pirated cds or blue jeans never going to affect the bottom line of klipsch. The plans I now use I am not allowed to make public where they came from, I will tell you that this man is most respected in the custom audio world and his products are considered second to none, if I could tell you his name you Dean would also agree with me that his reputation and integrity are indeed proven. When he states that Roy Delgato himself has said (because of disclosure and proprietary issues) that these plans are "pretty much it" I can accept this as the best thing next to actual klipsch stamped plans, and I know many will say pretty much isn't an exact term but when it is said with a smile and a nod to a person he (Roy) respects then I can say it is the best set available. Greg Roberts seems to be a well respected member of this forum, did he receive such scrutiny when he "pirated" ALK's trachorn produced by Bill Martinelli? Isn't he selling right here on the forum Martinelli-ALK knockoffs? I guess it is subjective like most things and must be determined by the individual. I guess what I am saying is that we will never get rich selling cabs at the prices we do, hopefully we can afford test equipment to prove we aren't ripping people off, the people who have listened to my copies dont think so, I have a man who has tads and bryston amps setting around not being used that has purchased a set of khorn cabs I built because the bass is in his and others opinions better than his 1986 cabs, Wheather in my listening room or his it is agreed upon, I think probably because of the 3/4 I used internally and not 5/8" that I am told earlier khorns were made with, he is the rare customer I deal with, he can afford anything he wants, most of my customers cannot wheather it is a jube or a khorn or L300 or cornwall copies that I have made, none have been perfect, they have however been affordable. This world is full of copies, when I can afford the origional wheather is is an Apple or a Cadillac I buy it, when I cannot I buy a copy and as long as I am happy what else really matters?

You are probably right Mike, I should calm down, and if I have offended you by my words I do appologize! the reason for my assumption is the way that you went after Maron Hornzak, I surely did detect what I thought was an attempt to belittle or intimidate him and if that wasn't what you were doing all I will say is then it could have been better stated so that I and others would not come to that assumption. But like I stated I don't want or advocate being judgemental. I purchased my first hi-fi stereo in 1973 and what really drew me to audio was the way others, even if they had much better equipment were like comrads and were always helping, I see how the numbers in this hobby or pastime have dwindled and wonder if it is due to attitudes? I check this forum from time to time and am always amazed that someone is always going after someone in a negative way and wonder why the other forums have so little of this, maybe it is just timing and the fact that I am far to busy to spend much time on any of the forums unless I have a question, and like some friends am getting the attitude don't ask unless you are willing to get ridiculed by the so called forum geru's, doesn't this scatter the flock and not gather them? My intent is not to belittle you or anyone else for that matter, but maybe ALL should step back and say what if a would be audio buff checked out the forums, would he want klipsch? this forum is decidedly more hostile than any others. I spent over 20 years after hearing my first khorns and meeting Paul Klipsch before I owned a pair and if I had checked this forum regularly I can say I would have never purchased them because of attitudes by klipsch owners, maybe this is because we all have so much love and zeal over our beloved klipsch products and their copies, but in the end haven't we become our own worst enemy and everything that Paul himself hated about the audio world?

WAKE UP! the cd's are copyrighted and the jubilees are NOT, and don't say "it needs more honesty" while you are making a statement that is NOT!