MikeMilliken

John, This is harder than you think! A car/truck door is a HORRIBLE environment for a good speaker to live in. Its terrible physically with all the jarring around, especially if you go off road a lot. Its wet/damp, the door fuzzies NEVER seal properly. Its subjected to wild tempeature extremes. The average door is not even solid metal, its full of holes. The poor speaker usually has to mount to either flimsy plastic or something simlar to masonite. A car door is not an IB in any sense. it is more like an incredibly resonant torture chamber for a speaker. 60 HZ (-3d) on a 6.5" @ 90 DB 1w/1m is a piece of cake, in a real cabinet (ported). Theres a bunch oh Klipsch 6.5" woofers on ebay with rubber surrounds that could meet your specs easily, but not in a truck door. Can I suggest that you roll the poor door speakers off at somewhere closer to 100hz and add a sub? Have you ever heard what 60HZ does to a car/truck door? Have you heard trunks rattling from 300 yards away, its much the same. I have put 4-10" woofers in a car door, and I had to do serious metal/fiberglass work to stop the rattling. You are asking for a whole lot from a TERRIBLE speaker enclosure. Are you prepared to do a lot of work and protect the speaker from the elements. If not, look at "marine" speakers. I used to sell BABB audio speakers for boats, they play underwater! They can do what you want with the exception of the 60HZ, I dont think thats do-able in a truck door, without a lot of effort.

An extreme simplification, but useful........ If the woofer cabinet is vibrating externally........The woofer is WASTING its energy by flexing it. Thats sound you could put to good use. A "perfect" IB/sealed cabinet would impart nothing itself to the sound, and would totally absorb the backwave. Any design that uses the backwave to gain efficiency or increase output below resonance should (perfect again...) not put out anything (harmonics or fundamentals) above the frequencies it is intended to re-inforce. The rolloff of these frequencies is influenced by the type/design of the cabinet. Alas, perfection does not exist, but we still strive towards it.

To answer your initial question, if the gear is used with active crossovers, it does not need and internal (IE; passive) crossover. Someone had earlier mentioned a capacitor being in there, thats used in addition to the inductor to make a second order(12 db per octave) passive crossover, and can also be used as part of a compensation network in a very critical crossover, but not likely used much for PA gear. If the woofer, has only an inductor on it, thats a first order crossover, IE: 6 DB/octave if it has a large value capacitor (over 10 MFD) and an inductor, its likely a 12 DB/octave network 2 capacitors and an inductor, usually indicates a 3rd order, 18 DB/octave This is a simplification, and a generality...The actual roll off of the network also depends on the driver because a driver with a big rise in the response at/near the crossover point may not perform as it should in theory, and conversly a driver with a fast drop at/near the crossover frequency can dip faster then theory. Its rather common on commercial designs to use a 6 db passive on the woffer and have it function as a 12/18db would because of the drivers natural roll off being used to advantage/cost savings. I dont mean to make this overly complicated, but I also used capacitors in my impedance compensation networks (LCR) on my crossovers, but they are usually pretty small values like 1.0-4.7 mfd, and they (simplicification) made the woofer behave closer to theory than it wanted to... They do more than that... But thats a whole 'nother can of worms;) On your other question.......I have never found a box that doesnt show some improvement from damping being applied to the inside. Not once! However, do NOT fill the inside of a bass reflex cabinet, that generally does not give good results if the cabinet was properly desinged for the woofer you are using. Foam is not necessarily your answer as there is literally a thousand different kinds/grade/densities. There is a material called "black hole" and others similar to it, that are useful in absorbing the upper back wave radiation from a woofer, while leaving the useful part of the backwave (lowest frequencies we want to retain for re-inforcement) This can clean up the sound considerably, and is one of my favorite cheap tweaks on most any commercial design. The great thing about foam/dampening pads is thats its removable, undercoating is a PITA to remove. However there are adhesive backed ashphaltic pads you can remove before you "stick" them down Now you need to be judicious in the application and not go as far as to change the internal volume significantly. One thing I used to use regularly is 3M rubberized undercoating, and make sure its had plenty of time to dry before you put a speaker back in the box as I have had delamination in the surrounds and the spiders of the drivers, from the fumes! I have used the rubberized undercoating with good results on the outside of metal horns and the sheet metal speaker baskets, but you got to be careful.......... There are several acoustical treatments available, you are NOT supposed to hear the box making its own music. In theory the only contribution the box should make is in a resonance (tuned) at specific frequencies. Panel resonances can also contribute greatly to the output and anything you can do the break up their frequency should result in improvement you can hear. In many speaker designs, the designer is trying to take advantage of the back wave of the woofer, not the noises the box itself is making. When I build enclosures for critical listening on subs, as a minimum. I use 1 layer (inside) of 3/4" MDF/HDF and then a barrier material (usually 40# roofing felt) then for the outside I use a multilayer (more is usually better) plywood. These materials do not ring/vibrate at the same frequencies. I brace all my cabinet walls internally and NOT AT THE CENTER to break up the resonant frequencies. When I finish my cabinets I use the 3M rubberized undercoating inside and I get liberal with it. A speaker cabinet should not sound hollow/ring when you "tap it", it should be a dull thud. Do NOT use regular undercoating inside a cabinet, please! if it gets hot it moves/slides down. It also continues to emit unpleasant/harmful fumes that can be death to your woofers. I know this from experience. Regular undercoating never seems to stop stinking either. This should cover your initial questions

In addition they help take some load off the voltage regultor and help the altrnator last longer, even on dual battery systems. Plenty of cars that i was involved with would literally have the headlight go out on bass transients. They would give the amp better damping factor (control of the woofer cone) and reduced the early onset of distortion. The amplifiers also ran cooler....because if they couldn't get the current they needed (the amp) for a transient, the voltage would also drop, which immediately made the need for current (on the transient, music is AC)increase logarithmically. OHMS Law... I did professional extreme high end installs for almost 10 years. I also owned 2 car stero stores of my own. The caps made a big difference, one you could see in the headlights, one you could hear, and one you noticed in the longevity of not only your amp, but your vehicles electrical system. They sell similar power conditioning equipment for home audio, "tweaks" (I mean no offense), but with the enormous (comparitively) amount of current available at the 120 V socket, I think the ones for home use are more suseful for removing hum and possibly power surges.

Someone had asked earlier if this was a money no object... and it is pretty much so. To a point, by this I mean $10,000.00 on parts is not out of the question. I have a pile of good clean amplifiers and a decent/excellent active crossover, and high quality source material. I even have an old Audio Control SA 3020, 1/3 octave analyzer. What I don't have is an anoeic (SIC) chamber. But I would like to add one thing, on speakers that I have EQ'd to measure absolutely fla, I never liked them that way. I dont know if I have flawed hearing or maybe I don't interpret the same as everyone else? I have always liked a little upward gain in the 5/6K region, and not a sharp slope, a 2 octave contour and a pretty goof lift in response up at 12/13K on out to the end of my audibility. I prefer a little extra bass too. I learned all this after lots of time EQ'ing systems and playing with my old parametric equalizer to see what I liked after EQ'ing for flat response. I do NOT like flat response and I am willing to bet that many others do not as well.

I double posted only because I was unsure where this SHOULD go. I am new to the forum, so plaese forgive my lack of knowledge on this matter..... I have also decided to focus on a single or double 15' Cornscala "type" speaker to avoid any possible infringement on Klipsch. I in no way intend on doing anything that Klipsch would not like. I do think a bigger midrange would/could be of value in sound quality and I wish to pursue suggestion's in that direction. I also believe that there has to be a better/best tweeter out there somewhere. If this forum has already discovered a "best" tweeter, what is it? If a moderator can move this to the "right place" please do it. Thank you all, Mike Milliken

So forgive me for double posting.. This issue is of utmost importance to me and I think many others here.. Can the moderstors move it? Or will someone let me know where it SHOULD go? Then maybe I can delete it? I haven't been around long enough to know all the "proper" ways to post here..

Now that's funny!!!!! PS Mike, I also responded to your email ref: coming down and listening to the various Heritage before you cut wood, etc. Another fellow board member (Clermont Cop) called a guy named Marshall ( I think) while he was here picking up an acadamy center he got from me.I got a suspicion that might be you? In Okeechobee? Thanks for responding!

From what I have been able to discern about horns, especially mid horns. The physics behind them say that the low frequency cut off of the horn is determined by its physical size. IE Bigger is better. The horn design/flare rate determines its flatness in response. Ie Edgar, Tractrix. I also think.. (correct me if I am wrong, PLEASE) That you want the mid crossover as low as possible, to the point of avoiding Middle C (300HZ), where the human hearing is supposed to me most sensitive, so maybe the best place might be 400 HZ with a 24/48 DB slope? I used to love the sound of a simple first order crossover, but I never liked the fact that this made most driver distort badly when you drove them hard, and I WILL abuse these like I stold them. So whatever I/we come up with has to be tough. Is there a midrange driver (compression) out there that has enough output and response to go down to 200 HZ with a passive crossover and still be VERY accurate? I'd like to stay away from active crossovers anything except the woofers/lowest midrange so I only got to run 2 amplifiers, so maybe, just maybe. I shouls run double 15's on the bottom amd then actively cross over to double 12's to take the sound up to the midrange horns? I dont want to be complex if it doesnt have to be........ If theres a mid driver/horn combo that can go low enough for the dual 15's to cross over to cleanly then thats fine. Thanks again for your consideration.

Can I get some help please? I want to start aquiring the parts to build a set of Cornscala's. My questions are: #1. 1 or 2 woofers per cabinet? #2. What woofers are the best, one of Mr. Crites or some OEM Klipsch model, and I can easily drive a 4 ohm load with my AMP's #3. Should I just do a Jubilee or a WMW/MTM instead? I want the BEST sound I can get and I have a BIG ROOM #4. What has been discerned to be the BEST mid horn/driver combo.. I dont care how big it is, WAF means nothing here #5. What has been decided as the BEST Tweeter/ horn combo? I got a set of Dynaudio T 330's....also some B&W, JBL has always has some nice tweeters and horns, but I never see them mentioned here, is that "heresy" in this forum? I have never seen or used Beyma or CTS. Most familiar with Dynaudio, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, Audax pro, ATC, Volt, JBL, EV, and Peavey. #5.5 Should I build a wood horn myself for whatever is deemd to be the best driver? I have great wood working skills and a load of wood working/paint & body tools and the skills to use them effectively. I have built many speakers in the past. I used to do a lot of custom/pro sound work in addition to my personal projects. #6 I am assuming the ALK crossovers would be the ones to ge, or maybe some else already has this all worked out? #7 I have a KILLER 15" TC Sounds sub with twin 18" Passives, drivern by an active crossover and a 4 kilowatt amp, so the lowest octave is not necessary if I can gain something for it not being there. I also have an RSW 15, however I'd like these speakers to be able to do it all by themselves if possible. #8 I'd like to thank any/all respondents in advance. I will take photos and document everything I do, this project will come to pass. You wont be wasting your time responding to this. I am in Central Florida (by Disney) and any members that would like to be involved are invited to take part in any phase of the process. #9 I have looked through the forums to see if the BEST diy speaker has ever been resolved, but I have not found and consensus on it. Maybe this needs to be 3/4 seperate threads? Respectfully, Mike Milliken

Can I get some help please? I want to start aquiring the parts to build a set of Cornscala's. My questions are: #1. 1 or 2 woofers per cabinet? #2. What woofers are the best, one of Mr. Crites or some OEM Klipsch model, and I can easily drive a 4 ohm load with my AMP's #3. Should I just do a Jubilee or a WMW/MTM instead? I want the BEST sound I can get and I have a BIG ROOM #4. What has been discerned to be the BEST mid horn/driver combo.. I dont care how big it is, WAF means nothing here #5. What has been decided as the BEST Tweeter/ horn combo? I got a set of Dynaudio T 330's....also some B&W, JBL has always has some nice tweeters and horns, but I never see them mentioned here, is that "heresy" in this forum? I have never seen or used Beyma or CTS. Most familiar with Dynaudio, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, Audax pro, ATC, Volt, JBL, EV, and Peavey. #5.5 Should I build a wood horn myself for whatever is deemd to be the best driver? I have great wood working skills and a load of wood working/paint & body tools and the skills to use them effectively. I have built many speakers in the past. I used to do a lot of custom/pro sound work in addition to my personal projects. #6 I am assuming the ALK crossovers would be the ones to ge, or maybe some else already has this all worked out? #7 I have a KILLER 15" TC Sounds sub with twin 18" Passives, drivern by an active crossover and a 4 kilowatt amp, so the lowest octave is not necessary if I can gain something for it not being there. I also have an RSW 15, however I'd like these speakers to be able to do it all by themselves if possible. #8 I'd like to thank any/all respondents in advance. I will take photos and document everything I do, this project will come to pass. You wont be wasting your time responding to this. I am in Central Florida (by Disney) and any members that would like to be involved are invited to take part in any phase of the process. #9 I have looked through the forums to see if the BEST diy speaker has ever been resolved, but I have not found and consensus on it. Maybe this needs to be 3/4 seperate threads? Respectfully, Mike Milliken

Can I get some help please? I want to start aquiring the parts to build a set of Cornscala's. My questions are: #1. 1 or 2 woofers per cabinet? 2 hopefully, I like bass and high power handling! #2. What woofers are the best, one of Mr. Crites or some OEM Klipsch models, or maybe JBL, TC sounds?, and I can easily drive a 4 ohm load with my AMP's #3. I want the BEST sound I can get and I have a BIG ROOM, high sensitivity is of utmost importance. #4. What has been discerned to be the BEST mid horn/driver combo.. I dont care how big it is, WAF means nothing here #5. What has been decided as the BEST Tweeter/ horn combo? I got a set of Dynaudio T 330's....also some B&W, JBL has always has some nice tweeters and horns, but I never see them mentioned here, is that "heresy" in this forum? I have never seen or used Beyma or CTS. Most familiar with Dynaudio, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, Audax pro, ATC, Volt, JBL, EV, and Peavey. #5.5 Should I build a wood horn myself for whatever is deemd to be the best driver? I have great wood working skills and a load of wood working/paint & body tools and the skills to use them effectively. I have built many speakers in the past. I used to do a lot of custom/pro sound work in addition to my personal projects. #6 I am assuming the ALK crossovers would be the ones to ge, or maybe some else already has this all worked out? #7 I have a KILLER 15" TC Sounds sub with twin 18" Passives, drivern by an active crossover and a 4 kilowatt amp, so the lowest octave is not necessary if I can gain something for it not being there. I also have an RSW 15, however I'd like these speakers to be able to do it all by themselves if possible. #8 I'd like to thank any/all respondents in advance. I will take photos and document everything I do, this project will come to pass. You wont be wasting your time responding to this. I am in Central Florida (by Disney) and any members that would like to be involved are invited to take part in any phase of the process. #9 I have looked through the forums to see if the BEST diy speaker has ever been resolved, but I have not found and consensus on it. Respectfully, Mike Milliken