Fjd
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Posts posted by Fjd
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10 hours ago, DrWho said:
All the old posts are there. I'm surprised they haven't gone through and censored everything yet.
With all of the complaints about the limitations of the forum's old search function, it may not have been necessary.
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I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys. Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys. I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes. The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing, capacitor selection, stands, anything to get my speakers performing the best that they can would be of valuable.
The truth here is that Jason corrected what the OP thought was correct. It didn't need to get into an encyclopedia of the other info... which, btw, is also correct and good information.
My apologies if my “encyclopedia” offends you in my attempt to add a little clarification and more detailed information based on my experience, which I fully realize may not be important to you or Jason str. It may be hard for you to believe; however, some people actually have said that they appreciate the thought I put into my posts in relation to the specific questions asked in trying to get to the actual issue and that the posts are sometimes informative and useful.
I realize that every person is different, but I personally try to corroborate and validate things I read on the internet before I run blindly and make changes, which tends to make information that is a little more specific, where I can research it, more useful to me.
I'm not a mind reader so I try to lay out the facts as I know them and welcome when someone more knowledgeable provides constructive clarification rather than tell someone their post wasn't needed or necessary. Please note that the OP described a perceived issue with the sound, and in my posts about the horns, I was evaluating the section of the OP's post that I highlighted above and was trying to think about what he may have seen when he pulled the back off the speakers, but I concede that maybe you and Jason str have more specific knowledge in relation to what the OP knows and what he doesn’t know, or actually meant to post, over what I am aware,
However, in most of my specific person-to-person interactions with someone unfamiliar with Klipsch heritage horn speakers from that time period, when they pull the back off and see the same midrange compression drivers or see that K55V is stamped on the back of the compression drivers, there again, in my experience, the tendency has been that the person that is unfamiliar thinks that driver reference is the horn reference. Same situation when they see the same K77 tweeter, which is a little more straight-forward given that driver and horn are one unit.
There again, I did not anticipate sharing my experiences would cause such a back-lash since it was nothing more than a few simple clarifications on various other parameters of the horns that are the same, in order to provide an alternate perspective and insight to promote learning and provide potential topics for more research in trying to help the OP solve his issue; and for those that want to learn rather than be told. While you and jason str may not find my own personal experience relevant in relation to your experience, others on the forum might.
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The OP claimed the horns are the same in his Heresy and Cornwall, i was just stating that they are in fact not the same.
I've read enough of your posts to know that you are knowledgeable and experienced and you are not this naïve of all of the issues with sound reproduction; and often not this unwilling to be a helpful resource to someone new when it comes to clarifying information. Yes, in general, ONE PARAMETER of size the two horns in question are not the same. However, we were all new and inexperienced once (at least I was) and I've tried to show that on several other parameters there are reasons why the K-600 and K-700 are the same exponential flair profile and are most likely not responsible for the OP's issue.
On a side note, I have a single Belle with a K-500 that is also slated for a K510 update and certainly do understand the general size difference with that horn too..
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Horns are not the same.
Since both the Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers appear to be 1977 manufacturing vintage based on the R code, from my understanding both the K-600 (used in Cornwall) and K-700 (used in Heresy) both use the exponential horn flair profile and the midrange driver in 1977 was the same K55V midrange compression driver.
The only difference that I'm aware of is the K-600 has a lower cutoff point to allow for a 600 Hz crossover point to the 15 inch woofer in the Cornwall where the K-700 has a 700 Hz crossover point to the 12 inch woofer in the Heresy.
Both tweeters in 1977 would have been the K77 and the horn used on the K77 is the same for the Cornwall and the Heresy. Therefore, unless the OP does not have stock parts, I am not aware of any difference in the midrange horn or tweeter horn at the 6,000 Hz crossover point (which is the same crossover point from midrange to tweeter for both Cornwall and Heresy) between the midrange horn and tweeter horn that would impact the sound as he describes.
The K77 tweeter should have essentially the same performance in the Cornwall as it would in the Heresy, which is why I suggested the colterphoto 1 test of drivers.
Stand the K-600 and the K-700 horns next to each other and you will see the differences.
Please note that the OP has described a specific issue in sound that I offered a few basic simple preliminary alternate tests; and an analysis of the horns in describing why I did not think the horns were responsible for the issue. To me, a general response that the "horns are not the same" does not seem very helpful and does not seem to be useful information for someone new to Klipsch. So the difference in sound that the OP describes is something you have directly experienced that you have attributed to the horn size?
Please note that I currently have eight pairs of Heresy speakers ranging from the early 1960s through the 1970s. I have also had four pair of Cornwall speakers from the 1970s and currently have a pair of Cornwall IIs from 1986. In addition, I have a parts bin with spares of both K-600 horns and K-700 horns (and examples of the K-700 horns with the different mounting hole patterns used in certain years of manufacture) and two pair of K-400 horns from my La Scalas and 1976 Klipschorn speakers (I have the wood tractrix currently installed in Khorns and keeping the K-400 horns and K510 slated for La Scalas) and I do completely understand the general size differences between all of these horns. As referenced I also have K510 horns and K402 horns on my Jubilees and certainly do completely understand the size differences there too and differences in horn flair profiles.
I have also had both Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers set up in less than optimal settings, and have never experienced what the OP describes except when I bought a pair that had a blown tweeter.
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Horns are not the same.
Since both the Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers appear to be 1977 manufacturing vintage based on the R code, from my understanding both the K-600 (used in Cornwall) and K-700 (used in Heresy) both use the exponential horn flair profile and the midrange driver in 1977 was the same K55V midrange compression driver.
The only difference that I'm aware of is the K-600 has a lower cutoff point to allow for a 600 Hz crossover point to the 15 inch woofer in the Cornwall where the K-700 has a 700 Hz crossover point to the 12 inch woofer in the Heresy.
Both tweeters in 1977 would have been the K77 and the horn used on the K77 is the same for the Cornwall and the Heresy. Therefore, unless the OP does not have stock parts, I am not aware of any difference in the midrange horn or tweeter horn at the 6,000 Hz crossover point (which is the same crossover point from midrange to tweeter for both Cornwall and Heresy) between the midrange horn and tweeter horn that would impact the sound as he describes.
The K77 tweeter should have essentially the same, or very similar, performance in the Cornwall as it would in the Heresy, which is why I suggested the colterphoto1 test to determine if the high frequency tweeter drivers were working..
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I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys. Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage.
The excerpt for year of manufacture is from the link below and R = 1977.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161759-klipsch-heritage-codes-part-1-of-2-parts/
YEAR OF MANUFACTURE (1955 THROUGH 1983 ONLY)
A = 1955-63* F = 1968 L = 1973 S = 1978
B = 1963-64* G = 1969 M = 1974 T = 1979
C = 1965 H = 1970 N = 1975 U = 1980
D = 1966 J = 1971 P = 1976 W = 1981
E = 1967 K = 1972 R = 1977 X = 1982
Y = 1983
* Cornwall's & La Scala's used "A" 1963 and "B" for 1964; the first Cornwall to use a letter code was 3A09, shipped in August of 1963.
I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys. Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys.
Normally operating Cornwalls should not sound muddy. Check your HF and MF horns by sticking a sock (literally) in each horn and listening for output from the other. Occasionally the terminals on the internal crossovers get corroded, so all that is needed is to open the back (or take woofer out) to access the innards and check all connections at the crossover.
Before making a lot of assumptions on more complex situations, see colterphoto1's post on verifying that all drivers are working. In addition to the test above, I have a cardboard tube about the size of cardboard used on a toilet paper roll to put up to my ear and tweeters. Especially with high power amplifiers being very common, it seems to be very common to find a pair of Cornwall speakers with the tweeter diaphragms blown.
When using high power amplifiers with the old Heritage Klipsch speakers, I would also read the following "Dope from Hope" articles regarding the potential perils of using too much power that can be found at the link below from the Klipsch education page:
http://www.klipsch.c.../dope-from-hope
Vol. 7, No. 5, June 1966, "Blown Tweeters"
Vol. 8, No. 1, July 1967, "Guarantee Void!"
Vol. 13, No. 1, January 1973, "Fuses for Loudspeakers"
Vol. 13, No. 2, June 1973, "Speaker Destruction"
Vol. 14, No. 2, May 1974, "Power Ratings"
Vol. 16, No. 1, January 1977, "Amplifier Ratings to Drive Klipsch Systems
I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes. The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing,
Defining the problem and the goal certainly help in defining the best solution.
A few thoughts and considerations...
Is this proposed dampening to reduce standing waves and cabinet resonance effecting woofer response, or to minimize radiated mid frequency vent noise, or...?
Or perhaps you are considering this just because others have done so and been pleased with the results (which is a valid reason as well! It just makes defining the solution alittle more difficult! As the specific problem to be solved still has to be identified...)
Allot of the sheet style foams are as reflective as they are absorptive...as their acoustical impedance varies with frequency. They will simply move the problem surround if they are not used 'surgically' - matching need to the response.
Lossy fiberfill is more effective for LF standing waves while sheet material such as sonix would be more appropriate for mf/hf vent noise suppression...
The foam or other dampening materials are used to dampen internal resonances or 'standing waves' in the cabinets. I have been 'corrected' in the past on this next point, but I believe that generally accepted speaker construction call for the following- The materials are USUALLY placed on one of each of two parallel surfaces in order to dampen resonances. In MOST cases this is the top, one side, and back of the cabinet. In NO case should the material interfere with the transmission of air through any port cavity.
On SOME Cornwalls, material is also placed on top of the port 'shelf', NEVER on the bottom of the cabinet, that's port area, and SOMETIMES the entire interior, including motor board is covered. My above rules are the GENERAL rules.
Back to the issue at hand. I actually replaced one panel in my Cornwalls with foam that was too thick. It choked the airflow to the ports and caused a noticeable lack of bass. Al Klappenberger talks about the woofer enclosures in the Klipsch Heritage line on his website. Now, maybe he's just referring to the Folded horn woofers here, but he cautioned to leave the bass enclosures alone and I'd have to agree, based upon my experience. The foam you chose:i.e. peak and base dimensions on the convolute should be less than an inch, combined, and especially on the back panel. That air has got to travel somewhat freely to the ports. Non-vented enclosures are probably fair game for more insulation, but not vented. Also, consider the width and length on the back panel to make sure it is no more than what came in the Cornwall 1. I changed back from a thicker, larger pc of foam to a densified polyester fiber pad of 3/4" thickness, and reduced the width and length to the factory size....suddenly bass response was back to normal. And, good greif, don't worry about covering the crossovers. My .02.
Note: This modification was only performed on the back panel. The other parts of my Cornwalls are the stock tissue paper.
"Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal?"
I'm sure that PWK had a design goal in mind with the closed box Heresy speaker and the specifications of the woofer driver he used. In general, when designing a closed box, some designers will contemplate the use of stuffing and it is typically evenly dispersed throughout the cavity and the amount will depend upon the actual driver used. The theory being that a designer can achieve an effect of an increased cabinet volume by stuffing the cabinet.
"stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper"
The Cornwall is a vented cabinet and the goals are typically different than a closed box. The material is typically used to break standing waves inside the cabinet and I believe that with the Cornwall design the paper is only used to damp internal reflections and the main cavity of the cabinet is left open and the vent (e.g., port slot) then takes care of the overall driver / cabinet resonance. Similar to what colterphoto1 has outlined above, if you replace the paper inside your Cornwall, you basically only need it on one of the two parallel sides (e.g., one on the top or bottom; and one on the left or right), and you do not typically need anything at all on the back or the front because the mounted drivers should have the same effect on the cabinet.
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Seriously, unless some one has listened to this amp/ pre combo with Magnequest Transformers, into super good speakers like horn loaded ones, you have no idea what you are missing. Even the master Craig himself, says he would love to have a pair of these with the uber expensive Magneguest!!!!
One of the forum members from the forum's infancy days had a pair of Welborne labs 2A3 Moondogs with the MagneQuest output transformers and it seemed that in his view, the MagneQuest output transformers were a substantial, and very critical component to the overall sound. Also, I tend to agree about the significance of output transformers as I have used a few different types of the MagneQuest transformers for single-ended amplifier designs as upgrades myself and each time the improvements were fairly significant.
For example, I picked up a pair of old stock Bottlehead Parmour amps using the parafeed circuit on the secondary market for a price too good to pass up and upgraded them with a pair of MagneQuest BH-5 full nickel output transformers and BH-6 plate chokes. One of my favorite upgrades of output transformers is the upgrade using MagneQuest FS-030 single-ended air-gapped transformers on my 300b DRD mono blocks. I've given some serious thought to upgrading my VRD mono blocks with MagneQuest but that upgrade needs to wait its turn behind a few pressing life situations that need to be fully worked through.
From my understanding Craig may be out of chassis parts for building new NBS pre amplifiers; however, I am aware of one other pair of VRD mono blocks with the MagneQuest output transformer upgrade. Some on the forum should certainly recognize the name associated with the forum quotes excerpted below and some may have read the review on the Magnequest blog from our forum member, that solid state amplifier repair maestro extraordinaire, Paul79 of Many Moons Audio.
http://magnequest.blogspot.com/2016/01/nos-valves-vrd-amplifier-with.html
"The amps are like a religious experience man. Clear, clean, and flowing music. From top to bottom, sound is more even handed, more dimensional, and just plain sounds good. The stock transformers were somewhat rougher sounding and a bit tipped up or hot in the presence regions. I didn't really notice that until I heard these! Such important musical improvements these make. I am hearing the most realistic displays of depth I have ever heard out of 2 speakers. Absolutely fantastic. You done good, no doubt about it. Tell Mr. MagneQuest his transformers are f*in musical instruments."
These amps have more staying power in my system than anything else. The Magnequest upgrade takes these to a place where only the best amplifiers dwell. No joke.
Whoever got these is DONE buying amps... I have the same setup myself, with the Magnequest Iron, and they are unbelievable.
The NOS Valves gear is no joke. I have heard many amps and preamps, and these leave nothing to want really. They are that damn good. to experience them personally is really something. I had a friend hear my system recently, someone that sets up turntables all over the world in world class systems, and he told me that my system is the most emotional sounding system he has ever experienced. I completely agree.
As I understand it, the new output trafos were a collaborative effort between him and Mr Magnequest. I'll say that whatever recipe they dreamed up WORKS!
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It sure seems like many of the entertainment writers and bloggers are posting articles displaying their favorite BREXIT memes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/06/25/brexit-memes_n_10672438.html
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I have a bunch of crows come every morning for their black oil sun flower seed breakfast. It is interesting to watch their behavior. They are very group oriented with at least one on "watch" all the time alerting the others. They communicate constantly. Smart birds.
In some instances they have been known to come bearing gifts.
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Has anyone tried Al's aa
network exchange for use for LA Scala's ? & your thoughts on them .
Perhaps no one has....but give it time....
I suspect jimjimbo may be correct about the current offering; however, the concept of the Super AA /. ALK Jr. appears to have been around for about 11 or 12 years now.
Any help here?
Since the forum search function is often persnickety and, at times, downright pedantic to use and actually pull meaningful results, I just did a couple of Google searches specific to the Klipsch site and Audiokarma site and found enough information to keep you occupied for several days reading opinions.
Searching the terms "Super AA" OR "ALK Jr" specific to the Klipsch site returned over 1,100 hits.
Not as much chatter over on Audiokarma, but searching the terms "Super AA" OR "ALK Jr" specific to the Audiokarma site did return about 25 hits.
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The latest fashions for 2016 in protective hawk attack clothing.
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So there is a pair of KHorns and amplifier for sale on AGon, $7K. All new special speaker wiring and capacitors and the included 250wpc Parasound amp. The reason for the "massive overkill" is so the speakers arent fried by having delivered a "square wave" from the amp. Huh! I'll admit to not being the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm lost. So I guess I'm sure to fry my KHorns by delivering a wimpy 3.5 watts from my 2a3's? I guess I've been going about high effiency speakers all wrong, back to the drawing board.
There appears to be a fairly large segment of the audiophile community that describe the impact on the audio signal of driving a solid state amplifier into clipping as a "square wave" and I suspect that the seller is trying to say that the Parasound Halo A-21 500 watt amplifier will not be driven into clipping resulting in blown drivers, especially a clipped signal causing blown tweeters, with the Klipschorns.
I've attached the JBL Tech Note regarding the dangers of clipping that can be associated with the use of low power solid state amplifiers. However, when using a 500 watt amplifier with Klipschorns, I would also read the following "Dope from Hope" articles regarding the potential perils of using too much power that can be found at the link below from the Klipsch education page:
http://www.klipsch.c.../dope-from-hope
Vol. 7, No. 5, June 1966, "Blown Tweeters"
Vol. 8, No. 1, July 1967, "Guarantee Void!"
Vol. 13, No. 1, January 1973, "Fuses for Loudspeakers"
Vol. 13, No. 2, June 1973, "Speaker Destruction"
Vol. 14, No. 2, May 1974, "Power Ratings"
Vol. 16, No. 1, January 1977, "Amplifier Ratings to Drive Klipsch Systems
Regarding your 3.5 watt per channel tube amplifiers, one of the perceived benefits of the tube amplifiers is that vacuum tubes seem to clip more gradually than solid state transistor amplifiers and do not have the same impact on the audio signal when driven into clipping as a solid state amplifier driven into clipping.
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Just to make some feel normal, this is what you do when out of options with a 6 hour drive one way and really
needwant them.Surprised we didn't get pulled over.
But to go with the inside of the vehicle idea Cornwall lll's in there boxes will fit it that same jeep with the back seat down, very little room to spare. 2000 Jeep Cherokee.
Forte ll's easily in the back, had heresy's in the back for car speakers for a long time but that took to much space to be convenient but it did sound good.
That's really impressive. I did something similar with my old Camry as I had a very limited time-window to pick up a pair of split La Scala speakers and no opportunity to rent the cargo van for a day. One bass bin strapped (I had the thick straps with the ratchet and heavy rubber bungee cords to the roof of the car (tried to find a spot where the roof would not cave in) and one bass bin strapped in a similar manner wedged into, but hanging out of the trunk. The top hats were squeezed inside the car.
With one of those small compact cars, if semi-regular hauling is in order, maybe a sturdy roof rack similar to this guy is the way to go.
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I'm always a bit confused over the ohms, fortes say 8 ohms on the back so where would all this 4 ohms talk come into play?
The 8 ohm rating on the back is considered the "nominal rating" and the actual impedance will typically change from the nominal rating with changes in frequency. Basically, an impedance analyzer is used to measure the loudspeaker’s impedance as it will change across the frequency range. The lowest impedance that is measured is typically at DC, which is also known as the DC resistance. The IEC method of specifying the nominal impedance of a speaker is set so that minimum impedance should not fall below 80% of nominal. Therefore, in general, an 8 ohm nominal rating of a speaker should be 6.4 ohms minimum; and for a 4 ohm nominal rating it should be 3.2 ohms. However, in certain situations the "nominal ratings" that we see for consumer speakers do not seem to follow this formula.
I posted the impedance curves of the Forte II and several other Klipsch speakers to demonstrate how it can vary among the different Klipsch speakers. For example, with the Klipsch Forte II (re-posted below), has an overall impedance curve that is all over the place and varies widely. The chart demonstrates that the Forte II impedance curve drops to a low of almost 3.5 ohms at the range between 100 Hz to 200 Hz and rises to a peak of about 106 ohms at about 2,150 Hz.
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Couple things to make clear...
I'm not expecting sub bass from these. I'm expecting more of a live bass.
My two channel listening, which is what I'm describing, is from my Emotiva, or HK 430 in the past, not my Onkyo AVR.
he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contoursOP, does your Yamaha have "YPAO Volume"? That specifically was designed to address this quirk of human hearing, similar to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Give it a try.
edit...oops, doesn't seem that's the kit you're working with, sorry. Does the Onk have a similar feature?
I think a slightly smaller room (e.g., length) to better accommodate a typical listening position from the speakers may help, along with good speaker placement; however, with the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours, I believe that it will be really difficult to achieve the "bass punch approaching live bass" that you are looking for at lower dB listening levels. I tend to believe that it risks coming across as artificial or unbalanced, somewhat like a "bass hump" that is designed in the frequency response of certain speakers.
It has bee a long time since I played with the old HK receivers, but in thinking about the old HK 430 a little more, if the switches and controls are all clean and working on the HK 430, I would try using those. The HK 430 does have a bass control (I believe it is a boost at 30 Hz so it may not help much with the difficult aspects where the Forte has the most difficult impedance dips), treble control, and a contour switch.
The interesting aspect of the contour switch on the HK430 is that it typically works in conjunction with the volume control to increase bass energy at low volume settings. I do not remember the range of boost; however, by activating the switch it would mean that it would have the most significant impact on the bass at very low volume levels and progressively decrease its effect as the volume level is increased. The effect would be completely disengaged once the volume control passed the “12 O’clock” straight up setting.
I know there is a significant portion of the audio-community that are against tone controls, equalizers and contour switches and would probably like to see the terminology added to the "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television" (or post on an internet forum); however, I believe that a person's design goals for an audio system and listening experience are very personal aspects of an experience unique to that individual, and I have assembled systems that have little in the way of the signal path, as well as systems that rely more heavily on shaping the sound. When placed in the correct room environment, I believe that both approaches have merits and their own respective trade-offs, and both can lead to very rewarding listening experiences.
I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.
I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.
Fjd, might be the most informative post I've read here. Great job of explaining why it's important to match the amp to the load it's driving.
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
Mark
This thread also brought back a few memories of when I was a kid in that the lower the sound level when playing music and trying to achieve "balanced sound" across the frequency response range, the more my equalizer looked like a “smiley face,” and as I would increase volume, the more I would need to flatten it across all frequencies until the smile disappeared.
A couple of points of clarification regarding the vintage receivers. In general, back when I was growing up in the 1960s (and even into the 1970s) it seemed that very rarely would you find a mass-market speaker that would dip much below 8 ohms. Even many of the individual drivers used in theater set-ups, where I was fortunate to obtain used on the secondary markets, were 16 ohms or in some instances 32 ohms.
Essentially, it seemed that in those days that there was not a general need to provide 4 ohm power ratings for consumer gear, and since consumer 4 ohm speakers were not really mainstream as they are today, there was not necessarily a real business case to design consumer receivers and amplifiers that could drive complex, low impedance loads lower than 4 ohms in the mass market consumer sector of the audio business.
Given the above, it is not necessarily that the better vintage solid state receivers cannot handle 4 ohms, many of them actually can handle 4 ohm loads, although they will run noticeably hotter as the receiver tries to meet the current demand of the low impedance load. In fact, the ability to handle a 4 ohm load is true of most receivers of the time-period that were designed to handle two pairs of speakers simultaneously.
When the receiver would allow for the use of two sets of speakers there was typically a warning in the manual and sometimes on the back of the receiver itself about the need to use speakers above 8 ohms given that two pair were often ran in parallel and would lower the impedance and require a more demanding draw of more current from the receiver.
The first quote was the old Harman Kardon 4 ohm warning for the HK430 (the pictures below; HK430 4-8-16 ohms, and HK730 only references 8-16 ohm speakers) and the second quote was from the old Sansui integrated amplifiers that could run two pair of speakers at the same time.
“Note: All stereophonic solid state amplifiers can normally accommodate only one pair of 4 ohm speakers. This means that if you have connected a pair of 4 ohm speakers to SPEAKER SYSTEM 1, no additional speakers of any kind may be connected to either SPEAKER SYSTEM 1 or SPEAKERS SYSTEM 2 without consultation with your dealer, Harman/Kardon, or the manufacturer of year speakers.”
"When connecting two sets of speakers, care must be taken to ensure that both sets are rated at 8 Ohms or higher."
Not much different than some of the differences between pro gear and consumer gear that must be recognized and dealt with, standards 40 and 50 years ago for consumer audio gear were much different than they are today and it can sometimes be problematic to assume that today’s standards apply to 40 year old receivers.
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Yeah, those numbers are loud for me too, 100dB with 120dB peaks is just nuts - but a lot of people love it.
I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.
I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.
So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.
Thoughts?
Think about high sensitivity and how it relates to low impedance. The Forte will play almost as loud with 10 watts as most other speakers do with a 100. High sensitivity extends headroom by default. While all watts may not be created equally (because of damping) - a watt is still a watt. If he normally listens at 90dB, he's using about 10 watts, which means he has plenty of reserve current to handle the lower impedance.
I realize that most people do not read an entire post, let along all posts in a thread and I realize that in most situations you seem to be dealing with people that like 100 dB listening levels; however, in the OP's first post, he states the bass is "anemic" and that he expects "more punch at 65 dB - 75 dB." In my experience, with all else checking out fine, I believe that at 65 dB - 75 dB listening levels he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is perceived as accentuated and bass / mid bass is perceived as de-emphasized rather than something else.
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I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.
I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.
So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.
Thoughts?
I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye. Typically, lower level listening (65 dB - 75 dB) allows more detail appreciation than listening at very loud levels (90 dB - 100 dB) primarily due to the impact of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is accentuated and bass / mid bass is de-emphasized.
In addition, once placement issues are addressed, the Forte series speaker (e.g., I and II) tends to be more difficult to drive in the frequency region below 200 Hz vs. something like the Khorn, La Scala or Heresy; and as the impedance of a speaker dips in certain regions of the overall impedance curve, the amplifier needs to deliver more “current.” Many vintage receivers, new budget receivers and budget amplifiers can become very anemic in the sub-200 Hz range when asked to deliver enough current to properly drive an impedance load around 3.5 ohm.
Many of the vintage receivers would have difficulty driving 4 ohm loads; unless you went TOTL and even some of those would have difficulty. The HK430 isn't rated for 4 ohm; and for example, TOLT Marantz 2325 rated power of 125 watts per channel is not recommended for 4 ohm speaker impedance loads.
Although, the Emotiva mini x has both an 8 ohm and 4 ohm rating, while the company has disclosed 8 ohm as 50 watts / channel RMS; continuous into 8 ohms; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; the company has conveniently omitted the frequency response range where 4 ohms can be handled and only discloses 80 watts / channel RMS; continuous; into 4 ohms (we don't know if that means it can only handle 4 ohms from 1,000 Hz through 10,000 Hz or some other range that does not stress the amp like the bass frequency range can stress an amp).
I had a set hooked up to a Adcom 555 for a year or so. About a foot from the rear wall in an open area. No bloat in the bass though balanced. An amp with very good bass drive makes them open up. Also, it either sounds like you might have a wiring problem or the networks are balanced a little too forward. When you start changing things like the crossover, you open a can of worms and a lot more tweaking. The speaker is the sum of the parts, not the drivers. The crossover is the heart, balance, and presentation of the speaker.
I think that many of us are reading past the bass issue regarding the lower level listening of 65 dB and while it doesn't address the aspects of the Fletcher-Munson / Equal-Loudness issues at lower level listening, here is a great example of how ADCOM gave a lot of insight into the 4 ohm specifications. Here is the ADCOM GFA-555 II below that would have easily driven any of the low impedance dips that fall below 4 ohm in the Forte series impedance curves.
Rated Power Output
200 watts per channel into 8 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, both channels driven.
325 watts per channel into 4 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, both channels driven (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).
600 watts into 8 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, bridged mono (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).
850 watts into 4 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.09% THD, bridged mono (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).
Dynamic Headroom
2.5 dB at 4 Ω.
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I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.
I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.
So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.
Thoughts?
I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye. Typically, lower level listening (65 dB - 75 dB) allows more detail appreciation than listening at very loud levels (90 dB - 100 dB) primarily due to the impact of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is accentuated and bass / mid bass is de-emphasized.
Fletcher-Munson curve
In addition, once placement issues are addressed, the Forte series speaker (e.g., I and II) tends to be more difficult to drive in the frequency region below 200 Hz vs. something like the Khorn, La Scala or Heresy; and as the impedance of a speaker dips in certain regions of the overall impedance curve, the amplifier needs to deliver more “current.” Many vintage receivers, new budget receivers and budget amplifiers can become very anemic in the sub-200 Hz range when asked to deliver enough current to properly drive an impedance load around 3.5 ohm.
Many of the vintage receivers would have difficulty driving 4 ohm loads; unless you went TOTL and even some of those would have difficulty. The HK430 isn't rated for impedance below 4 ohm; and for example, TOLT Marantz 2325 rated power of 125 watts per channel is not recommended for 4 ohm speaker impedance loads.
Although, the Emotiva mini x has both an 8 ohm and 4 ohm rating, while the company has disclosed 8 ohm as 50 watts / channel RMS; continuous into 8 ohms; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; the company has conveniently omitted the frequency response range where 4 ohms can be handled and only discloses 80 watts / channel RMS; continuous; into 4 ohms (we don't know if that means it can only handle 4 ohms from 1,000 Hz through 10,000 Hz or some other range that does not stress the amp like the bass frequency range can stress an amp).
Forte II impedance curve
Heresy impedance curve
La Scala impedance curve
Khorn impedance curve
These are pretty pristine I'd say. Bought them from a forum member and they are almost perfect. I replaced with Crites crossovers and Tweeters. I've checked several times to make sure everything was wired up correctly. Something just seems to be wrong.
They sound fantastic listening to something like Norah Jones, but when you play anything, from any source, more upbeat, they sound harsh and shallow. No punch.
I know they are capable of it, I've heard some pretty low frequencies from movies on them. And I'm not looking for a crazy amount of bass. I want more if that live feel.
I'd say my Heresys sounded more dynamic to me. They didn't have quite the realism as the fortes but they felt more alive.
I've just never been that happy with my fortes as much as I want to be. They seem very difficult to place, and I've tried every which a way. Used lasers, tape measures, stands, etc.
There has to be more to these speakers after what everyone else has said. The room is not that big, there is a large opening to the kitchen so maybe that has something to do with it.
I feel more power will help but I guess I won't know till i try.
There is a good chance that "harsh" is source related as there are many crap recordings on the market.
Regarding "shallow" I believe that Deang and willand have outlined a couple of points that I excerpted below that can be significant impediments causing "shallow."
Regarding "no punch" you will need an amplifier that can generate enough current to drive the impedance curve portion that is below 4 ohms satisfactorily, along with the portions that hover between 4 ohms and 8 ohms; and that listening experience will also probably require additional volume than the 65 dB or so listening level to overcome the Fletcher-Munson curve. If you have tone controls or equalizer controls, you can give it a bass boost in that area to help overcome the Fletcher-Munson curve for lower level listening. Also, I'm not aware of any Norah Jones music that is significant to the area of the impedance curve in question.
Regarding "Heresy speakers sounding more dynamic," the Heresy speaker has a very benign impedance curve that can be driven by most any amplifier/receiver that even remotely has a hint of quality built in.
Should be placed near corners, and pulled out about a foot or so. The sound should be balanced and even. If you're a bass hound, get a sub. The Forte II is a nice sounding speaker, but it isn't as authoritative sounding as its larger brethren.
I think you are asking too much of your Onkyo TX-NR609(100w/ch AVR wattage) to drive your forte" IIs with authority and send quality bass to a listening position near 17 feet away. Also, for that listening position, your mains are spaced apart only about 9.5 feet which most likely not provide "accurate" soundstaging for stereo music.
Just my take but I may be way off.
Bill
Given the impedance curve of the Forte series, listening distance, and spacing of speakers, none of his receivers/amplifiers would be on my "recommended component" list for Forte speakers. I've listened to a lot of the vintage Harman Kardon receivers and amplifiers over the years and while many were “high current” designs, and noting that the HK430 should be satisfactory on a pair of Khorns or La Scalas, and excellent for a pair of Heresy speakers, given the Heresy benign impedance curve, it would not be at the top of my list of recommend components for the Forte series due to the impedance curve of the Forte dipping below 4 ohms for most of the 100 Hz through 200 Hz frequency range.
In relation to the Harman Kardon vintage HK series of receivers, even the HK730 receiver isn't rated for 4 ohms and it was a significant step up from the HK430 design; and totally different as the HK730 used a complementary symmetry amplifier design. I believe that many people confuse the HK430 with the HK730; however, the HK430 actually has much more similarity to the HK330 than it does to the HK730. I believe that the HK330 and the HK430 are basically the same as they both used the same circuit board except that the HK430 tuner circuit board has FM muting section populated, the HK330 does not; and the HK330 has only one power transformer on the 20W rated HK330.
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Ok, everyone has a right to price their gear for whatever they want to, however Ampsandsound has two speaker models that look very much like Cornscalas to me. They are using beryllium compression drivers (which are quite expensive indeed), but they are priced at $20k for one model and $30k for another. I've seen what some of the people on this forum are capable of, and I just can't for my life see spending $20k + for cornscalas. However it could drive the value of the Cornwall up
(the $30k got a bad mini review) !!!!What do you guys think - it seems that a lot of people are attempting to revive/remix the Klipsch Heritage models in one form or another. I believe the Heritage models from the originator are pretty darn good!!!! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!!!
Regarding pricing, it sure wouldn't be the first time that someone reporting on an event got the pricing wrong. There would sure be some very interesting choices competing for those dollars in the $20,000 to $30,000 price range.
Regarding beryllium compression drivers, there are many less expensive options for compression drivers with beryllium diaphragms on the market now and I would be interested to learn what brand he is using. Radian practically carries a full line now for each of its compression driver models and Eighteen Sound has expanded its product line to include beryllium diaphragms. There are also other options available to those building speakers.
However, I have not explored these drivers mainly because other issues in life need to take priority right now; and, while being much less expensive than TADs, the initial investment (e.g., "cost to play") is much higher than the used JBLs and Altecs, since few of these new Beryllium compression drivers are available on the secondary audio parts markets. In addition, I have not seen many response curves published yet and when I do, in general, it seems to me that this new generation of Beryllium compression drivers have not yet refined the phase plug to highlight the advantages of Beryllium and still tend to roll-off the higher frequencies rather than extend. The old TAD compression drivers with beryllium diaphragms have an extra slit in the phase plug, which I suspect helps extend the high frequencies rather than roll-off.
Radian Audio
http://www.radianaudio.com/beryllium/
US Speaker lists multiple Radian models with the beryllium diaphragms on its site and carries a 2" throat 651BePB Radian for $699.95 each.
http://www.usspeaker.com/hfcompressiondrivers-1.htm
ND1480BE with a 3 inch premium Beryllium dome - polymer surround diaphragm
http://www.eighteensound.com/PRODUCTS456/Products123/ProdID/197/CatID/3#.V1mK2v_2ZD_
I currently use TAD TD-4001 in my Klipschorns and TAD TD-4002 in my Jubilees, but at some point if I feel the need for more DIY and I start to experiment with compression drivers again and see some published curves, I would like to try one of the Radian 1.4 " compression drivers with the beryllium diaphragms. I believe there may be a few benefits with the 1.4 " vs. 2 " when you have the flexibility of a higher crossover point using 500 Hz or 600 Hz vs. 400 Hz in the Khorns.
Although, they couldn't be used for a two-way design and needed to be three-way with a tweeter, one of my old non-TAD favorites was the JBL 2441 compression drivers with Alnico magnets and Aluminum diaphragms.
I'm not sure what a "Titanium Nitride Coated Dome" actually means and noting the curve has limited information on how and what horn when determined, but Eighteen Sound shows a curve for the compression driver that seems to do a decent job of making it through the top octave.
http://www.eighteensound.com/PRODUCTS456/Products123/ProdID/151/CatID/3#.V1mIj__2ZD9
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Keep in mind the "cornscala" isn't a Klipsch product. .
Before the forum conversion I had the original threads identified and bookmarked where Bob Crites was building a "test box" set up; and a parallel thread where he first "coined" the term "CornScala" in reference to the test box (that ultimately morphed into the various CornScala products on his site). I haven't had a chance to "re-find" those threads since the old bookmark links no longer work.
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I only saw a man that was fearless both in the ring and out. Sports Illustrated named Ali 'The Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century' in 1999.
Sports Illustrated was right.
Babe Ruth could not only hit, he could pitch too.
Jim Thorpe was a multi sport phenomenon.
Babe Ruth sure transcends generations in name recognition and for those that have not read about Jim Thorpe, I would suggest they do. To me, it seems that the “all-time best boxer” (Sugar Ray Robinson, maybe?) or “all-time best heavy weight boxer” or “Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century” is more of an opinion that will have strong generational bias and really becomes more of the opinion of “best for a certain generational period.” Whether the person is a sports writer or an individual spectator, the first-hand detailed knowledge will typically cover a span of about 20 – 25 years. For, example, in general, most of the people that I have talked with that actually saw boxing in 1930’s – 1950’s, for the heavy weight division, seem to go with Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey. In general, I find that most in the baby boomer age group tend to prefer Muhammad Ali, while the most recent generations tend to vote for Mike Tyson (along with the “what if” crowd), Evander Holyfield or sometimes I hear Lennox Lewis name thrown out there.
Yes, Ali appeared to have gained crossover appeal to people outside of boxing, when boxing was a mainstream sport, which appears to help him tremendously in these types of polls and opinion contests; however, I believe his manner and some of his decisions left a lot to be desired. Having his own self-delusions of grandeur and self-importance is one thing, but trying to elevate that self-importance at the expense of others is in extremely poor taste. Of course, he would be quick to state it was all in the name of promoting the match, but some of the stuff he said should not have been said in any situation.
Keep in mind that during Muhammad Ali’s three-year hiatus from boxing for refusing the draft, Joe Frazier was a friend, helped him financially, and actually took the time to testify before Congress and petitioned to have Ali’s right to box reinstated. Muhammad Ali returns these gestures of friendship by “promoting” the first fight with Joe Frazier with his own cultural and political agenda. Of course, he plays the part of the revolutionary and the civil rights champion to all, while he assigns the part to Frazier as being the pawn of the white establishment and an “Uncle Tom.” Bryant Gumbel feels the need to join in and get on the Ali bandwagon and writes a magazine article asking "Is Joe Frazier a white champion with black skin?"
So where does this type of behavior leave Joe? Joe becomes isolated from everything and receives death threats and his children are subsequently bullied at school. I don’t believe that anyone deserves that type of treatment, regardless of the type of justification or whether it is just in the name of promoting a boxing match.
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I don't want to change the subject, but….in their prime….Ali or Tyson?
Completely different styles. Ali the finesse boxer with some power and Tyson the powerful puncher with deceiving hand speed.
Maybe could have been a good match.
Bill
Maybe? I think that would've been the ultimate heavyweight fight.
I would go with Tyson, in his prime he was devastating.
I would go with Tyson, in his prime he was devastating.Yea..... I'm with Tyson
We will never know.... Both Great boxers....
MKP :-)
Too bad Tyson couldn’t have lasted for the long-haul. The fight that I would like to see with both in their prime would be George Foreman (not technically a great fighter, but an excellent puncher with 84% knockout percentage in 81 fights) and Mike Tyson (I believe to be a better boxer and one of the most prolific punchers in boxing history), talk about a “home run” derby and constant fireworks with these two guys!
I think that different boxing styles can make for an interesting fight. In some respects I think you could put Joe Louis (in his prime before his four years in WWII) and Ali in his prime, both in the same ring and think that I was attending a chess match.
When looking at different styles, what I found interesting was how Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both had a type of style of being hard punchers with that constant all-out relentless attack keeping the inside pressure) could always give Ali fits. Of course, Ali never seemed to learn the classic defense moves such as blocking, parrying and slipping the jab; and seemed to rely more upon his speed, lateral movement and leaning away. Contrast that with someone like Joe Louis, who was a classic defender that knew how to block, parry and dodge the jab, could hold his hands up, keep his chin down and elbows in.
Styles sometimes seem to be circular in that a certain style can give a boxer a ‘fighting chance’ against another boxer with a different style; such as Frazier beat Ali; Forman beat Frazier; Ali beat Forman.
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Rent a small ryder with a lift gate and a fridge dolly easy to do and probly 100$ for the day. cheap compared to a trashed pair of K Horns
Yeah, Sammy pretty much nailed it.
I'm such a cheap arse on my own and Mustang Guy really guided me into not cheaping my way into stupid. His decisions (the ones I posted) made the trip easy, safe and efficient.
Had I cheaped out the way I wanted to transporting my Khorns I would have thrown them onto my 5x8 utility trailer when they would have been ruined on the 2-hour trip home. They would have bounced up and down on my trailer and you know how rough those metal grates are, it's like a wood rasp. They would have had to weather a driving rainstorm with dirt and water kicking up from below.
It would have been a disaster.
Where are you guys finding trucks with a lift gate and unlimited mileage for $100 a day? I must not have the right connections as I've done the long haul trips four times now for large speakers and the best price I found for a lift gate truck was a 16 foot truck at a little over $100 a day plus mileage of 0.49 per mile; and this was a couple of years ago now. My 700 mile trips would have been about $450 before tax and gas instead of the $104 total with unlimited mileage for the cargo van, which was a significant reason (along with convenient location) why I went with the cargo van.
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however, while I did not have a Uhaul location close enough that was convenient, the rate on the side of the Uhaul vans have always piqued my curiosity.
I did the 19.95 Uhaul pickup truck rental when i needed to move a pair of KP450's to a warehouse for shipping. The 19.95 is the daily charge plus mileage. They charged me .59 per mile x 37 miles. Not bad for short trips but could get expensive on long ones.
That makes sense and probably should have realized that since mileage is the reason why I buy the unlimited mileage on the Enterprise vans for the longer trips. My Jubilees being about a 700 mile round trip would have been substantially more at the per mile rate. Picked up the van before Enterprise closed the night before, then hit the road between 3:00 am and 3:30 am; and had actually completed the round trip and returned the van well before the 6:00 pm closing time the next day.
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(the $30k got a bad mini review) !!!!
Cables, Coffee, Cycles, and Cocktails
in Lounge
Posted
I suspect that you are aware, but does anyone else remember the circumstances when Roberto Clemente of the Pittsburgh Pirates got hit number 3,000; and at that point in time, became only the 11th player in major league baseball history to reach the 3,000 hit threshold?
After playing baseball for 18 seasons with the Pittsburgh Pirates injuries had limited Clemente to playing in only 102 games during the 1972 major league baseball season; however, he still managed to hit .312 in what we now know would turn out to be his final season playing baseball.
On September 30, 1972, in front of his home-town crowd in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Clemente hit a solid double for his 3,000th hit, which would ultimately become his last at-bat, during a regular season game, of his distinguished major league baseball career. Sadly, only 13,000 fans were in attendance for that game.
I say "solid double" because what I found interesting was that during the baseball game played the night before, the official scorer had changed one of Clemente's at-bats from an infield hit to an error. However, there was no doubt about hit number 3,000.
The reason I started with "remember the circumstances" is because Clemente’s hit number 3,000 came in the last at-bat of his major league baseball career, not because he decided to retire, but because he died in a plane crash after the end of the season while trying to deliver aid to the earthquake victims in Nicaragua during December 1972.
With different circumstances, Clemente may have never been on that flight; however, he had received disturbing information that the aid packages on the first three flights had been diverted by corrupt officials of the Somoza government and the aid never reached any of the victims of the quake. Therefore, Clemente chartered the fourth plane and decided that he would accompany this relief flight.
Roberto Clemente (may he RIP) never made it to the destination…….