[I finally got around to triamping my K-horns]

Ages since my last post on time-alignment on this forum. Since than I happily played with MiniDSP DIRAC to do some of it rather nice.

Now the tri-amp bug got me. Overhere in the Netherlands we make HYPEX FA123 plateamps with DAC/DSP/NCore amps: https://www.hypex.nl/product/fusionamp-fa123/154. Sounds like a great way to do this at a very affordable price around $400 a piece. Remember NCore amps are on par with Benchmark and Purify.

Haven't seen it covered in this forum but it would be interesting to hear your opinions.

[Lets talk Amps]

I have been very happy with my FirstWatt F3 amp. It delivers such a realistic image with ease and poise. It replaced a very good 3k€ tube amp, definately. Not knowing what could be better I don't miss anything. Very mindfull.

[Timing Measurements]

The quest went on. Past year have brought a MiniDSP with DIRAC Life software to replace my DIY "time aligner" and a new DAC: CHORD Hugo that also doubles as a more than excellent HP amp. Both made me very happy but that is of lesser interest. Let me show you a few graphs to proof my point. They reflect on the room measurements that one needs to do to.

 

First a before and target frequency response

 

Now it looks more like the ideal curve from B&K

 

Through some IT magic also the impulse curve was improved:

 

Music is very crisp and detailed. Spot on purcussive sounds with a lot of energy. Every horn in a smaller room benefits from this I would reckon.

 

Anyway just to let you know and maybe provoke some interest.

[Timing Measurements]

I assume that this is the product line that you are referring to?  I actually found more than one "Dirac" product, unfortunately.

 

The only compliant that I've heard about miniDSP is that it might be noisier than desired in a small room due to the DSP noise itself when used with very efficient loudspeakers.  I've not heard one before, so I can't tell you personally that there are any issues or whether it might sound very good.

 

Chris

Indeed these are the ones with DIRAC Live incorporated. It's a variation on a theme: AA is in the analog part of your chain, DD in the digital domain or DA as a complete converter/preamp. I have not yet heard them but like the theory and from experience know that they make good boards without anything audible added like noise. The little board with D in/out on the miniDSP i.e. works nice and sounds good. Needless to say I have no connection, but simply like their products and a Khorn in a small(er) room needs stuff like this.  Have a great weekend, Dirk

[Timing Measurements]

It has been a while since I last chimed in but this is a subject I think is really very relevant for a Klipschorn owner. Other than i.e. a KEF107 these reproducers have built in time alighment flaws. Luckily these don't show up in big rooms with KH's set apart wide, where you merely hear reflections and less direct sound. On the other hand in a small room, listening from a short distance and powered by a very fast amp without any distortion (like the F3) one hears the slap on a drum or the stick on the brim not as one sound but composed out of two or three seperate sounds. Also staccato singing is perceived like that. But your brains adapt to it and you get used. BUT once you fix it the difference is very obvious. 

I did so by means of a MiniDSP and Y-ing together hi and lo output of the pre-amp. A solution for the books one of the forum members kindly called it. And also by setting the HF horn right to the back. 

 

This brings me to a new angle on the discussion: DIRAC is a DSP that corrects room response but also time-aligns speakers upto 10 msec. I really like that idea and was wondering if any member has any experience with this solution. It seems so perfect for our beloved Khorns. MiniDSP offers a hardware solution with built in DIRAC Live. But one could also use the music server (PC or Mac).

[MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping]

Just an update. As others have experienced, for me too a window has opened up. Last Sunday I took the beast apart and took the K77F tweeters out of the top and put them over the mid drivers. Top in front is nicely covered with foam, curtain behind it. Solid silver LSwire in Teflon is hardly visible. I set them up vertically because EV350's were recommended like that. The effect is quite stunning. Immediately you notice the coherence of drums, vibraphone, cymbals and the like. Comparing a mono recording on the tweaked vs standard KH this effect is clearly heared. Thriving on this little success I also tweaked the other tweeter and enjoyed some good stereo sound the better part of the afternoon and getting used to a few dB more highs. A breath of fresh air!

Now voices are clearer too (nil tubiness anymore), they also have a percussive nature I was not aware of, like the rolling RRRR's of Cecilia Bartolia. That is a real percussive sound now! You hear separate tones from a piano more clearly. It is a very gratifying modification.

Turning back the delay in the miniDSP to the recommended 4.44 mS the picture sort of shifted forwards, so I settled for 6.5 mS somewhere in the middle knowing it is very easy to further adjust from the PC.

[MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping]

Your idea is clever! How did you arrive at 7.5 ms for the delay?

Thanks you're too kind! 7.5 mS is the max. amount of delay you get in the 2x4 unit, with an advanced X-over software package. I have seen figures from 6.0 to 7.5 ms as measurements of delay in the bass bins, so I thought it was not not that critical. And I liked what I heard, so I didn't mess with it anymore. You guys made me aware of the significance of this number, so I'll look into it.

In some of the configurations a miniDSP takes it time to do the arithmatics, but because all signals are run through in my setup it this doesn't create a problem. It would if you'd do tri-amping with the bassbin driven by an unprocessed signal and the mid/highs through the miniDSP. Well not really a problem because you want some delay there [].

The next thing to do is to mount the K77F's on the back of the cabinet and mount some acoustic absorbtion like Basotec around it. Shame, the Anni's look nice as they are. Anybody set them up vertical like their twin EV 350? No need for a baffle probably; better to mount it free I guess?

Best

Dirk

[MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping]

Thanks for your interest. Here is a PDF with some pictures and explanatory notes. I hope this helps clarify.

Summary: the analogue input from relay board (LiteAudio, DIYClub) is fed to a toggle switch and than connected to either B1 preamp or miniDSP input. I use mostly Belden 8412 mic cable because it has been around as long as the Klipschorns. It is soldered directly to the little board. No plugs used. The outputs of the miniDSP are connected with 2 x 1” iron nails. Belden cable is again soldered directly to board outputs and connected to Channel 2 of the B1 preamp.

It is easy to switch between CH1 and 2 and in effect bypass the miniDSP. For experiments (bi-amping etc.) the outputs can be easily used.

Best regards, Dirk

miniDSP and B1 experiment.pdf

[MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping]

Thanks for giving my experiment some of your thoughts and time.

The reason summing up the signals does seem to work is probably because it is done after the Xover which is set at a very steep 48dB BW. So for the most you'r summing up a 0 V signal, which is inherently safe to do without resistors []. Just a bend cut iron nail in the original outputs. No need to say the nail was carefully selected for its audio quality and was bend at full moon, a blue moon actually.

My presumption was that around 450Hz you'd see some phase problems but that you suffer from that anyway given the difference in accoustical path between the bass bin and MF horn. Another thought was that keeping the original (split) X-over from the Anni KHorns in place would straighten some of the equalisation and phase problems that seems innate in the design. First I tried bi-amping with the Cayin 300B I had sitting around. Highly modded, really nice amp, but not as good as the F3 I'm afraid. So after that I decided to give it a try and shortcircuit the outputs. Still very happy with the simplicity of the solution.

BTW loosing 3 dB in the miniDSP appears to be a design choice. it has nothing do do with summing the (0V!) signals.

Best regards

Dirk

[MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping]

It's been three years since I got a pair of 60th Anni KHorns in my basement. It has worked out well for me, thanks to info from this forum. Especially the FAQ Corner-Horn Imaging has been very helpfull (tnx CASK05!). Made me switch from a nice 300B SET amp to a FirstWatt F3 and tweak my room accoustics a bit further. Little things like putting the beast on spikes help, "sealing" the cabinet to the walls with isolation tubes helps etc. etc.

And now the miniDSP has entered. It is positioned between the input switch board and the Nelson Pass B1 preamp in such a way that it can be bypassed. So we can ABX. It is setup straight forward with crossover at 450Hz, 48 dB slopes where the High Pass signal is delayed 7.5 mS. Both High and Low pass signals are kinda shortcircuited and the sum signal is fed to the B1 preamp and stereo F3 power amp; so no bi-amping needed! It looses some 3dB but imaging has really improved. Female voices are overall nicer to listen to, instrument are behind the speakers, the stage is bigger and a piano is smaller so it can be pointed at. Somehow there is also more room information and the illusion of height is there.

Thought you guys might want to know or have a good laugh...... [H]

[La Scala Project in Holland]

Looks great! Nice to see a fellow countryman also enjoying the Klipsch Heritage. Veel plezier ermee! [<)]

[Flush mounting tweeters on La Scala with new K-77-D?]

hello islander,

i just picked up on this 5 year old trail and wondered about the results you heard using the foam. was it any good?

cheers []

[Do JBL SA-600 amp and KHorns match?]

thanks ye all for your quick responses. it saves me some awkward moments.... [:$]

[Do JBL SA-600 amp and KHorns match?]

dear friends,

After tweaking my basement, SET amp and 60th Aniv KHorns I think I'm in audio Nirwana! Can concentrate on the music now. I have a friend who collected superior audio equipment over the years and would let me have some. Like a Thorens belt/idler PU with 12"SME/Denon! That was real luck.

Now there is talk about a JBL amp, probably the SA600. Not much info on the net except that it is a highly collectable amp. I find the horns very sensitive to amps so my question would be is it worth auditioning on my KHorns or can I just pass?

best regards

Dirk

[The "Klipsch Forum Member Map"]

Please add me too; it will double the flags in the Netherlands and put Europe on the map again, big time!

Dirk Veldhorst in Nijmegen, the Netherlands. Oldest city in the country and proud host to 40.000 during our 4 days, biggest-in-the-world walking event.

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

They are really thick so I had to carve away some of the MDF in the KHorns . It is easy to do, rather on the soft side material I would say!

Dirk.....you really didn't carve up your new speakers.....just kidding right?

I'm serious! There's enough left though [] and you cant see from the outside. Anniversaries come with side-panels and backs.

Diana Krall is working out right now. Love them.

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

Very nice room and speakers Dirk.....enjoy And yes let us know about tweaks.

I started off with Marantz MA 24 monoamps. It was the best Marantz could produce in the late '90s and once cost an arm and a leg. Still heard "some metal and harshness".Hearing the raving reports about SET amps and how they do justice to the KHorns I persued to find me one. Choices are between exotics at a prices, home brewn or Chinese. In the US market things might be different but that's how it basically is over here. I settled for the CAYIN A-300B which has some nice features: remote with mute and channel switch and toggle on the fly between no (true SET) and some feedback.

It arrived directly from China indicating it as a Spark Audio on 220V. On arrival one of the 6SN7 tubes was dead, which was somewhat of a shock. Than I found out this was a nice opportunity to do some tube rolling and went shopping for 6SN7 and 6SL7 to make it complete. Started off with a mix of RCA and Sylvania but didnt like their performance and changed for all Sylvania. WGT/JAN specs and NOS in the original boxes from april 1945! I like the idea of having this really old stuff bringing back to life! As I posted earlier the pins in these tubes are slightly thinner (.15 mm) than new ones, so I had to some bending and tweaking in the tube sockets. The results are amazing IMHO.

Next I did some serious tweaking on the Thorens turntable. It was actually the third one I was given and could jigsaw a neat one on an aluminium base. 30 yrs old it needed maintenance and new interlinks. Cut up one of the "BetterCables" (US made!) I had laying around.

Opposite to what I have always thought all audio stuff needs to burn/break in. And speaker wire does matter. Found myself some W&M Audio wires that seem to work really well. Two German guys with a lot of expertise have them made in China and sell mainly through the net. They are really thick so I had to carve away some of the MDF in the KHorns [:$]. It is easy to do, rather on the soft side material I would say!

I also tilted the back side op the topcabinets about an inch up and toed the speaker in.

One of the most rewarding tweaks was changing the powersupply of the logitech squeezbox for a sturdy one I had around from an Iomega ZIP drive. That really worked out well.

best

Dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

Just hop in whenever you're around in the neighbourhood []

The Cayin amp really makes the Khorns swing as was predicted by one of our forum members last year. I settled for a Chinese amp with Full Music 300 tubes as SETs. The 6SL7 en 6SN7 were changed for 1945 (!) Sylvania JAN/WGT NOS tubes. Pins in these old tubes are 0,15 mm thinner than contemporary ones, so the sockets had to be slightly adjusted. Now after 2-300 hrs they are soo smooth and fast. Everything makes a difference in the chain: cables and even changing the powersupply of my Squeezebox made a remarkable difference. It is all so rewarding and family and friends really appreciate it. That was quite different in the past.......

Dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

hi Artto

Thanks for the comments. I was aware of the topic and it helped me decide to get rid of ceiling reflections. Curtains help, carpet does, a big sofa does but treating the ceiling made a difference especially for women voices. Basotect is an interesting material and is used in some german cars, some Lexus and aeroplanes as sound absorber. Tons of books in the back help absorb basses and act as Helmholtz absorbers ( I like to think that).

Next and probably last will be a large carpet in front of the speakers, and maybe some canvasses/oilpainting on the side walls....

I love my Khorns!

cheers

Dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

dear friends

it has been a while. It took me a few months to finish the basement, redecorate and set up the system alright.

I'm fine now as you would probably have guessed. I (and invitees) am very pleased with what I hear. Spoiled for ever.....[]

Just to show off, I'll try post some pictures.

I'm, particularly proud of the ceiling with frames fitted with BASOTECT and finished with white speaker cloth:

and the other side, with a lot of good sounding books:

If it would interest anyone I can also explain how I tweaked the audio gear.

best regards!

dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

Thank you all for your advice and friendly words; just want to give an update of a significant moment. A moment of truth when finally the giants arrived this morning. These are the original 60th anniversary edition Klipschorns pair no.170 with beautiful veneer, very rich. What can I say? Familiar CD's sound different, especially voices have a different timbre. Some revelations like de Diana Schuur from GRP, sounds excellent now or the ZENPH reperformances of Glenn Gould. Brilliant!

I have to tweak the room accoustics and find myself a nice SET amp. Many of the makes discussed in this forum don't sell in Europe. One could buy Unison Research, Dynavox, Yarland, Destiny or Cayin that seem rather affordable. MacIntosh and other premiums are outragiously expensive here. Any suggestions are welcome!

cheers!

dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

Not to pry, but with your obvious audiophile-awareness, how is it that you only now "discovered" Klipschorns? Also, can you describe more specifically your impressions on Khorns versus the new big Palladiums?

I simply never had the chance to listen to any of them; they are rare and were very expensive. American speakers to me were electrostat, magnetostats and hybrids with accompanying local heating sources like krell and accoustic research amps. It all reminded me of "nothing replaces cubic inches". Krell's philosophy is quite the opposite as you guys have been aware of much longer. Anyway it was a bit of a revelation.

As I said in my first post the Palladium 39 speakers very much sounded like high end speakers I have listened to more often. Great workmanship but you're still auditing speakers and not always listening to music. The way the Khorns handled the musical material swept me of my feet. The involvement you get is staggering and is lacking in other setups I have listened to. It will take some while to get used to because there is little or no coloration of the box itself, they're not sweet at all and yes slightly hornlike if you're not used to it. IMHO incomparable to the 39F's but than again I don't want to put people off who are totally happy with them. I have been for years with my KEF 107's. They used to be more expensive than Khorns BTW.....

So to sum it up: it is not the analytical mind that is triggered by deeper bass or clearer mids; it's more the musical mind that has a different sense of time and seems directly connected to the emotional brain.

It so happens I just got a mail from my dealer with a very tempting offer. He has two pairs of 60th's: one with a flamboyant and the other with a more quiet veneer. I think I'll go for the loud one!

Cheers,

Dirk

[Anniversary KHorns in the basement?]

Dear all, I'm new to this group and only since yesterday fully aware of Klipschorns. I could listen and compare the big Palladiums against the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn. Don't want to offend anyone but the horns blew away everything. I've been interested in audio since +25 yrs and played with Cabasse Sloop and KEF 107 (the big bandpass system). All modified with decent cable and crossovers. Sometimes I was really involved, but most of the time just listening to loudspeakers I now realise. With the horns I was really involved with the music. Tuck & Patti, Cecilia Bartoli, Keith Jarrett, Rickie Lee Jones, they all were with me in the room. I'm seriously tempted to buy the horns, for a reasonable price, but it is still a lot of money. I would drive them with Marantz MA-24 class A monoblocks. The setup would be a 2 channel seperate in the basement/cellar of 13x30 with a low ceiling of about 7 ft.

My Q to the community would be if this low ceiling will work out well since accoustics seem to be very important and the recommendation of having +8 ft. ceilings from PWK. It is a concrete house, no echo, carpets etc.

Cheers

Dirk