tube fanatic
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We never had a problem until I stated I have no faith in most local unknown nameless technicians ... YOU TOOK that statement out of context... Sure many true professional technicians exist... It is the fly by night types that work out there home at night with no overhead or protection/recourse for the customer. Also the sellers on eBay selling gear as "gone over" by some mysterious un-named technician which almost always equates to some half witt patched it up so it will play music for a day, week or month so the seller can get a premuim price... You may have had good luck in the past with Local technicians but this business has drawn some real low life characters over the last 10 to 15 years as vintage tube audio has made a resurgence. The economy being so bad sure hasn't helped since so many people will resort to anything to make a buck. Every Tom, Dick or Harry with a $15 radio shack soldering iron and a $5 multi-meter is now a professional technician....
Now we have accomplished something! You have clarified the basis of your assertion (without any rude or insulting remarks), and I completely agree with you about there being some bad apples out there as well as many true professional technicians. Thank you! Now I'm going to go out and buy a lottery ticket......
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- Ever heard the words tolerance and sprotsmanship?
Hey Derrick! I can't speak for Craig (believe me, he sure wouldn't want that), but for me good sportsmanship ends when a person insults anyone who has a different point of view, calls them juvenile names, and insists that only they are correct without providing any explanation. It's like the school teacher who makes an obvious mistake but refuses to acknowledge it to his students and sticks to the incorrect point of view (like the time my daughter's elementary school teacher insisted that penguin was spelled penquin and said that the dictionary was wrong when it was brought to her attention.) I have never insulted anyone (on here or anywhere else) with whom I differed, preferring to explain my reasons and leave it at that. Your comment is appreciated and will hopefully do some good. Regards-- Maynard
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Do own a scope.... now that is a real moronic thought. Um last count I owned 6 of them...
You my favorite Audiophool to disagree with have about zero true knowledge of what you post.
Craig, I hope you realize how much entertainment value we give our fellow forum members with our discussions (busting your chops is fun, and someone has to do it so it may as well be me!) And since I have only 2 'scopes, I guess that makes you the better man (but I bet mine are bigger!!!) As to knowledge, well, I don't need to brag about my credentials or involvement over the years in the electronics and audio field. My offer to you continues- any time you want to have serious discussions about the assertions we both make, feel free to email and I will answer as time permits. I will gladly support mine with references or any other material you would like to see and hope you can do the same. (With all of this, I'm actually starting to like you a little-- I must be getting weird!!!!!)
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It is official... you qualify as a "Local Tech" or would Audiophool be a better fit?
Craig, your comment made me laugh so hard I almost lost my breakfast (which would have been a shame as it was quite delicious!) Apparently you are not aware of the definition of an audiophool as it is used in this part of the country. Let me present the real definition for the enlightenment of the readers of this forum who may consider many of your specious arguments to be the gospel of the audio world: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=audiophool
Seriously though, I can't imagine you have ever done any real circuit analysis work using the 'scope (do you even have one?) or other test equipment. If you had, you would be aware that my comments are quite valid as it would have shown you that a, say, 20% variation in the value of certain components can affect the sound. I won't go into a lecture about the different parts of the circuit which can be affected by even normal component tolerances (you and anyone else are welcome to email for as much discussion on this as desired.) So, as usual, we disagree. C'est la vie (why do I keep reverting to these lovely French expressions?) It's up to those who post questions to sort out good information from the invalid and to be cautious about accepting advice from those who fart higher than their rear end.
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Your question is a good one, answering it is a little difficult. New caps will sound much better than old ones but you are correct they will sound different.There is no simple answer other than to say that with the old caps you are courting disaster as the amp will eventually fail. Problem is that there are very many different kinds of capacitors each for different applications and they all impact the sound in different ways. This is where years of experience and listening come into play. I can also tell you that resistors will also impact the sound. The good news there is that there is generally no reason to change resistors unless they are fried or on their way and it is not hard to maintain the same type of resistors. For example it would not be wise to switch from all carbon composite resistors to metal film as you would loose a lot of warmth, this is because of character of distortion the carbon resistor has compared to the metal film resistors.I have found that if you have a compotent modifier do the workthey will do a lot of circuit cleaning up things like grounding and when they are done you have a better sounding unit than when you started. You could contact John Hillig in the St Louis area (http://www.musicaldesign.com/) he is one of the best modifiers in the country. Jim Strickland (Acoustat) and David Hafler chose John to breath new life into the Hafler line years ago so if thoses names mean anything to you you can ask if he will work on you amp or if he won't if he could recommend someone. Ols receivers and integrated amps are generally a nightmare to refurbush so it may take some research on your behalf to find a competant technician. I am sorry that I could not be more helpful but this kind of project is a bit of a can of worms finding new pot to fit with the correct values (sometimes impossible) and all manner of other things to deal with. Most tech just will not go there but there are guys. If you search you will find someone who can get you to where you want to be. Best regards Moray James.
Moray, I have to disagree with you on a few points. New capacitors and/or resistors will not necessarily sound better than the originals. With some caps running 20% above or below their specified value, changing to caps which do not maintain that variance can affect the sound in a negative way. Likewise for resistors which usually run on the high side of their specified value over time. So, if a given piece of equipment sounds phenomenal the way it is, doing a full replacement of the caps and out of spec resistors may not yield the desired result, in my experience. I have always made it clear to folks seeking this type of restoration that the final sonic result cannot be predicted, and that they are taking a bit of a gamble that it will result in an improvement in the sound to their ears. It doesn't much matter if I can demonstrate improvements on the 'scope in such instances. Enjoy! Maynard
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From the tube side, any suggestions for integrated amps that still have that EL34 magic midrange but offer a little tighter bottom end? I was thinking that maybe the PrimaLuna Dialogue models or a Rogue Audio Chronus might have more bass control. I'm in no hurry to upgrade though for now.
The tightness of the bottom end has much to do with the amp's output impedance, which affects the control it has over the woofer, and the circuit characteristics. And what one person considers tight another might consider mushy. I believe the Prima Luna has both 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps. Have you tried the speakers with both of them? Often, that can make a noticeable difference. The CWs drop down to around 3.5 or 3.6 ohms in the bass region iirc, so trying the 4 ohm tap is certainly reasonable. Unfortunately, the best way to find out what may be more satisfying is to try other amps in your system. Maybe there are some forum members in your area who would be willing to bring over their amps for you to get a listen. Regards-- Maynard
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For those who are into cable rolling, The Cable Company offers loaners so you can actually try them in your own system before purchasing:
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Dave makes a good point if you can do the work yourself you can save a lot. It is still a good idea I think to cultivat a relationship with the local tech mod guy in your area and look into possible upgrades.
You would be supporting local business and getting a new amp for a fraction of what a new off the shelf amp would cost and if your tech guy is any good at all you will get a better amp than you could ever afford to buy otherwise. Best regards Moray James.
Moray, you have made my day!!! But, get ready for the comments about how incompetent local techs are! I have already covered that issue in great depth in previous threads, so I won't get back on the soapbox. Enjoy--- Maynard
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Dave, what you have discovered is not the least bit suprising. Decades ago, Langford-Smith (who literally wrote "the book" on audio amplifier design) made the following statement which I have shown to every person for whom I have either designed, serviced or restored an amp since 1960:
"The purpose of high fidelity reproduction of music is to satisfy a particular listener, who is primarily interested in the emotions arising from what he hears. The complete process involves sensations and emotions which cannot be treated objectively and must bring in personal preferences and differences of opinion."
My complete agreement with this has shaped my amp design philosophy. With all of the heated discussions we've had on here about the merits of SETs or any other type of amp, the "best" type of speaker, etc, it still reverts back to this simple statement of what audio is all about. So, enjoy your new setup (I'm jealous as I'm still not quite there!!!) And if someone comes over and disagrees with your assessment of the sound, the heck with them! You have found your "sonic nirvana!!!" Wish I lived down your way as I'd love to hear your system. Regards-- Maynard
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There is no change by moving the input selector. Only the right channel is affected. The continuous growl has stopped, except for the moment when I turn off the amp. I tried resetting the bias and that right channel is very erratic. There is no way to set the bias for that channel. The left is fine. One of the new 7591 tubes is pulsating, so I tried replacing it with one of the old ones, but nothing changed. The sound out of the right channel is very muffled, like the bias was off, but as I said, it cannot be adjusted.
Hi JJ- From your description, it's not the power supply as that is
common between the 2 channels. Since the volume control is after the
front end (12AX7), the problem is between that and the output
transformer. Before anything else, swap the phase inverter tube between
the 2 channels (either a 6U8 or 6GH8 depending on the version that you
have) and see if that cures the problem. As far as the erratic bias
pot, did Craig install it or was it factory installed? Did Craig make any modifications to the amp? Are you
technically inclined enough to be able to work under the chassis in a
safe manner with the amp powered? The voltages under there are quite
lethal and I hesitate to give you any instructions about measuring there
unless you know your way around. Lastly, what kind of test equipment do you have? In any event, feel free to post again if
you wish and I'll try to assist you as time permits. Btw, why haven't you just called Craig about the problem since only he knows what was done to it? All the best----
Maynard -
Whatever55: the late Harvey (aka "Gizmo") Rosenberg was an extremely devoted Westminster Royal listener. I had corresponded with him many years ago about using single-ended triode amplifiers, which are in the few watt range...some more, some less..., with very high efficiency horn loaded speakers. For him, they were the very best of the best. Those familiar with his name, which you certainly may be, know that he was a very prolific writer about this topic, and mentioned the westminsters often in conjunction with the Japanese audio community, which had a dedicated following of both horn speakers and low powered triodes before that specific combination became a bit more mainstream, or at least more popular, here in the west. He shared some very enjoyable email about them, and there was a time where I was very interested in them, though decidedly under-funded in terms of owning a pair for myself. Harvey Rozenberg was a fascinating character, and is missed by many. I still love to look at those big speakers! Another, less expensive model I find very intersting is called the Tannoy "Glenair," which to me is also visually very sculptural. Can't afford those either, but they have crept up from time to time on the used market. By the way, you need not worry about posting about other, non-klipsch products here. They are very tolerant about it, a fact I have to come to greatly respect and appreciate.
Hey Erik! I'm sure that you also recall that Harvey was a proponent of OTLs and even created a page to honor Futterman:
http://www.meta-gizmo.net/futtrmn/intro-futtrmn.html
Those were certainly some exciting days in high fidelity audio! Wish I could turn back the clock............
Maynard
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One or both channels? Any change in the loudness or tone of the "growl" when you changed the input selector? A number of possibilities come to mind; however, you mentioned having limited technical knowledge so going through a "differential diagnosis" may be of dubious value. But, if you want to check a few things, send me an email and I can take you through a number of tests which will help to isolate the section of the amp which is causing the problem.
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In general Jolida, Cayin, and PrimaLuna have all gotten good reviews of their products. Do a search and you will likely find actual reviews of those specific amps which will help you to make a decision. If any of the sellers are close to where you live, perhaps they would be willing to bring the amp to your house for a listen. Of course, buying used you have no way of knowing if any work has been done on them so it is always a bit of a gamble. You also don't know how many hours of use the tubes have seen, so you could wind up having to replace some in short order. As far as asking price goes, look around online to see what similar amps have sold for on the various sites (and offer a lot less to get negotiations going!) Good luck with the search and post any additional questions as they arise.
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The only way to know what you will enjoy is to hear the amps in your system. Perhaps you can find a dealer who offers a return privilege (i.e. Decware) so you won't get stuck with something which isn't pleasing. Or as you asked in your last sentence, perhaps there is someone in your area who is running tubes/Fortes who can give you a listen (keeping in mind that it won't sound the same in your room.)
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EAT is reputed to make the finest modern tubes available (with a price to match!!!) If you are interested in how NOS tubes were made back in the day, check this out (and be sure to watch part 2 which you can find on the right)----
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I imagine the retailers of high priced items will celebrate when this happens. It will be interesting to see if it results in greater price competition.
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Frankly, looking at the pictures in close up I'd advise you not to even bother trying to restore this unit. Judging from the rust on the speaker terminals and bottom of the transformer housing, rust/corrosion on the chassis, etc, you are likely to encounter too many problems. Even if the transformers test ok for resistance, there's the possibility that the internal wiring has been attacked by moisture/salt and will fail when voltage is applied and current drawn for some length of time. It's also likely that every solder connection will have to be re-flowed, riveted chassis grounds drilled out and redone, rotary switches taken apart (as mentioned before) and rebuilt, potentiometers replaced, and lots more. It just isn't worth the expense of buying all the needed replacement parts and tubes only to wind up with an unusable amplifier. I speak from many years of experience working on equipment which has seen service in a moist, salt laden environment. You will be better off buying an amp which has already been restored or, given your location, possibly considering one of the Chinese amps like Yaqin which have a good reputation. There are some self-appointed arbiters of "good taste" on this forum who will attack this advice vehemently by asking why I should care how you spend your money, so it's up to you to consider all sides and make a decision. Isn't there a French expression to the effect "Il pete plus haut que son cul?" You will find that it's quite applicable here, so beware! With all that said, we are really a nice bunch of folks with many years of collective experience (52 in my case) in audio or electronics.
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Hi Tahitibub,
Because of its condition, it is simply not worth the trouble and expense to restore.
George may be correct if in fact the amp has had significant salt air/moisture exposure. I've serviced hundreds of TVs, amps, and other equipment which were kept near open windows of homes close the ocean. The corrosion in switches and controls can be awful. Wafer switches in particular are prone to such damage, and having to totally disassemble them for cleaning and restoration is not a task for someone inexperienced. And, as I asked before, what is your level of experience in doing electronic repair? Restoring an amp like this is not something that one should tackle without a solid experience base in working with this type of equipment. There's too much potential for a catastrophic outcome. It would be helpful to all of us forum members if you let us know your background in this area. Regards--- Maynard
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Looking at the rust on the transformers there may be many problems with this amp resulting from moisture/salt exposure. Do you have experience in working with high voltage electronics? If not, please don't try it as there's a definite risk of electrocution with such equipment. Tahiti seems like the kind of place where I'd like to live!!!
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I may want to go for the smaller ones considering my very limited space.
A description of your listening room characteristics would be helpful (i.e. size, shape, furnishings, how loudly you listen, how far from the speakers is your listening spot, etc.) Speakers like the RF-7II, for example, would be way too large for a small room.
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Regardless of whether you decide to buy new or used, try to secure an audition in your system (many sellers of new equipment, such as Decware, offer a money back guarantee although their least expensive offering is a bit more than what you want to spend iirc.) Tube equipment can often have very different sonic characteristics depending on the design (i.e. single ended triode or pentode vs push-pull pentode or ultralinear, and so on.) I wouldn't rush to make a decision, particularly since you said that you can spend a bit more in a few months. You want to be satisfied with your choice and not have regrets afterwards.
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Neither is the "volume" knob in most cases.
Right on! In our zeal we often ignore the simplest approach!!!
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If the rolloff in bass is due to the characteristics of the speaker (say it's down 4 or 5 db at 40 Hz) you can compensate somewhat, if using a tube amp with voltage feedback, by using a frequency selective fb network which decreases the fb a bit as the frequency goes lower. This creates the perception of a relative boost without necessitating increased power. The few db of decreased fb at the bass frequencies, although increasing the distortion a little, doesn't seem to cause any audible problems. It's a neat way to "cheat" and get the desired result.
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There is a tendency, on this forum, as well as other forums dealing with certain hobbies, for folks to immediately say..."that's great, what you are doing, but you really need to try blah, blah, blah..." Someone new comes on and is rejoicing about their newfound audio bliss, and they get told tey need to do something different. I'm with Dave on this. It doesn't matter if it's the amps, preamps, cables, sources, or speakers, room trreatments... We should let folks enjoy what they have. If they are happy with their purchase, that's great. I know a couple who really are satisfied with their Bose system, and I can visit them and enjoy the music with them. More power to them! When they eventually hear something better, cleaner, more nuanced, they'll might just ask you questions about how to get there.
Why should we give advice when no one is asking for it?
Bruce
I find it interesting that the philosophy of the forum waxes back and forth over time. A long time ago a forum member stated that he was having a hard time deciding which tubes to roll in his amp, not that he was dissatisfied with what he had, but rather that he wanted to push things further. I replied that in the '60s tube rolling wasn't nearly as popular as it is now, and that audiophiles tended to stop looking to improve on what wasn't a problem. I further stated that I don't like to see people spending hard earned money on chasing an unattainable "sonic nirvana." Well, that started a firestorm of protest about how I could say such a thing and was severely reprimanded by a very respected and prominent forum member who asked me why I should care how people spend their money! So, it seems a bit paradoxical that now, by making a suggestion which was designed to enlighten, the opposite firestorm is occurring. The fact remains that most of us in the audio field find mono amps to be an improvement over stereo amps (unless they are of a dual mono design.) If my mere words cause Dave's buddy to suddenly become dissatisfied with his SE84, well that's a darn shame. I can't imagine that a man who is obviously quite intelligent (judging from his post) could be so easily swayed.
Caps in your old speakers Caps in your old amp....
in 2-Channel Home Audio
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Hi John! Yes, it's me. Sorry to be so long in replying but somehow I overlooked your post. Why have you waited so long to say hello on here? It has only been 40 years! Will PM with my phone # so we can catch up. If you still get up as early as me, around 5:30 is a good time to chat. Catch you later--- Maynard