Delicious2
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Posts posted by Delicious2
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On 1/20/2019 at 7:04 PM, Chris A said:
Thanks Mike.
One interesting experience that I had a couple of months ago when I shortened down the Jub K-402s and added the AMT-1s on top of the surround Cornwalls (turning them into 2-ways by adding an old Dx38 from storage) was an apparent "room mode issue" whereby I could walk along just behind the listening chairs and hear subjective soundstage image "jumping"--like stereo does when you lean left and right in a fairly live room.
Once I reran Audyssey to set only the relative channel delays (which Audyssey actually does well), the magic of an uninterrupted soundstage image reappeared in listening while walking across the room--side wall to side wall. In fact the effect was much more apparent with all the surrounding loudspeakers now within a narrower vertical angle (i.e., HF drivers now much closer to the same distance off the floor). I was amazed at how little correction in relative delays per channel made that much difference.
Chris
Fascinating. I wonder why a change in speaker height would interrupt that effect never mind be remedied by relative channel delays? I"m such a newbie when it comes to small room acoustics...
Next step for me since I MUST have "the magic of uninterrupted soundstage" is probably to get more of the big furniture out of the living room (couch and roll top desk) making the space more symmetrical and with less big objects between speaker pairs both on side walls as it is on front wall.
With my old NuForce pre-pro I have nothing like Audyssey so I'm just getting in the ballpark with its speaker setup distance settings. I could bring the new Anthem AVM 60 up from the HT to see how its room correction might help with the relative channel delays.
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On 1/20/2019 at 3:47 PM, Chris A said:
The added delay for mine...the K-402 horn sticks out in front 7.75 inches...is 0.515 ms. I wanted to get the K-402s out in front a little bit further than you apparently did. Mine benefited from the lower level of near field reflections by moving them a bit farther forward.
Take your K-402 horn offset distance in inches and divide by 13584 (in/sec) as a common value for speed of sound constant (i.e., 1132 ft/sec). Add that value to the delay of the HF channels.
A poor picture of how I did it (dust, bricks and other detritus). Remember that my K-402 is a 25 lb. horn, i.e., not the 15 lb. version that you own.
Chris
Hmmm, 7.75 divided by 13584 is about .00057 not .000515. Are you fine tuning based on the REW measurement? By ear? So as a starting point my 3.5 inch protrusion would add about .000257 or about .26 ms, right?
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1 hour ago, glens said:
Take it right to the extreme (1L+1R to both L and R) and see if it provides a uniform soundstage. If it does so under that condition then you'll know your mixing is doing what you want to get done as opposed to just making it sound different.
"provides a uniform soundstage" - please elaborate
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3 hours ago, Chris A said:
This also works with Jubilees, reducing the centerline height above floor of the K-402 to ~46-47 inches, i.e., much closer to the standard used for ITU surround sound arrays (i.e., 1.2m = 47 inches, as shown in the figure below).
I've been using essentially the same configuration for a couple of months now. It gets the center channel K-402-MEH within an inch of height above floor as the K-402s on top of the Jubs on either side. The increase in surround sound performance has been fairly spectacular just with this very simple height adjustment and readjusting the time delays on the Xilica to compensate. The step and group delay performance of the Jubs also got a lot better...
YMMV.
Chris
LOL, Seems I'm following the trail you've already blazed whether I know it or not Chris! How did you lower the K402 on the Jub? Let's see the back side there...
Is there a ballpark delay I can plugin to compensate or should I just measure in REW again?
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6 hours ago, Dave A said:
I was not taught this but I believe it and the more complexity you can eliminate the better off you are. As I finish up the S-MWM's this coming week I have to use a xilica for time alignment and have to enter into the world of more to get the good sound I seek and read about. Being a minimalist can mean you miss some things you felt were not necessary and this journey of yours is of interest to me. You don't know what you don't know and each step up is an eye opener.
Yes, thanks for making that connection Dave. Entering into the "world of more" that is - a more complex signal chain wasn't intuitive for me, but, I now realize it was necessary and helped get rid of that "lusting after the giant killer of the month" syndrome. Going active these past months has opened up a new level of learning about my system and small room acoustics. I finally have the tools and am beginning to gain the knowledge to tune my whole system.
You were there for me when I began this Klipsch chapter of my journey with your excellent eliptrac horn mod for my Khorns. Thanks!
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Thanks Coytee 😸
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2 hours ago, glens said:
Appears to be mixing in a little of the other input channel (each way?), closing down the spread.
That's right glens. I'm mixing in some of the other input channel on each one. Closing down the spread is one way of describing it. I'm attempting to get a stronger center image without using an actual center speaker. I'm still listening as to how successful this method is.
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Now much closer to ear height losing about 10" from 57" down to 47".
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It's quite stable with the heavy TAD keeping the weight in the rear. Vertical and horizontal aiming is still possible. The horn sticks out into the room another 4".
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A new top plate from 3/4' plywood.
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Inspired by what others have done building mounts/enclosures for their K402s I decided to see what I could do as simply as possible with the goals of retaining the ability to aim the horn both horizontally and vertically and get the horn lower - closer to ear height. I just modified the factory mount. By turning the arms upside down their slots allow a wider range of adjustment with the driver much lower. I moved the metal mounting base plate forward on the wooden base and attached foam pipe insulation on the front of the wooden base for the horn to rest on once its metal brackets had been removed.
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For the single seat hot rod effect to see how good it can get I set the couch off to the left and pulled the single stuffed chair out away from the window. Listening is only with the heavy MoonDream brand drapes closed. With Chris' settings minus the 176Hz bump and the front channels mixed together a bit for better center fill it's starting to sound very good. Of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm discovering excellent new (to me) surround mixes such as Riverside's Love, Fear and the Time Machine and Steven Wilson's sampling of the first 3 Gentle Giant albums - Three Piece Suite.
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10 hours ago, Chris A said:
Based on the plot above, I added a fairly significant attenuating PEQ to the first order crossover below the AMT-1's crossover point of 800 Hz:
frequency = 660 Hz
Q = 10
gain = -12 dB
This attenuates the large rise in response that is seen at polar angles greater than 10 degrees that can be seen at the bottom of the plot, such that the average on- and off-axis response around 660 Hz is smoothed and the Cornwall bass bin takes over the output at that point, which is just below the polar narrowing region of the 15" woofer (i.e., just below the point that one wavelength of sound equals the diameter of the woofer cone). The above added PEQ enables the operation of the AMT-1 well below the typical 2 kHz (or higher) crossover frequency used by others. The advantage of this approach of course is that the need for a midrange horn/driver is eliminated and near-minimum phase behavior of the Cornwall bass bin + AMT-1 is achieved.
This is a very good sounding combination to my ears.
Chris
What are your other PEQs Chris? I"d like to use your settings as a starting point for my tweaking.
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Awesome room and Jubes Craig! Do tell all! Dimensions, strictly music or will there be video? more pics, more pics, more pics!
I agree Chris rocks! (you may mean Bessel crossover tuning) . He has helped me tremendously too.
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Thanks for the tip. Contacted seller.
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27 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:
I placed a block of Owens Corning 703 fiberglass insulation on top of the Cornwall cabinet, directly behind the AMTs. You can experiment with something like a down or poly-fill cushion or pillow.
Listening impressions? Pics?
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They are probably too close to my ears currently at 5 feet, but, it does allow 5 feet of clearance behind the AMT on the left and 3.5 feet on the right. If I move them just outside the heating vents they'll be 6.5 feet away but only 3.5 feet to closet door on left side and 1.5 feet to sub on the right. I could put dampening thick fuzzy fabric on those surfaces.
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2 hours ago, Chris A said:
How's the sound?
Initial impression - better than the dome and cone they replace. Light. Airy.
Looking forward to dialing them in both in positioning/back wave damping and electronically with REW and PEQs.
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On 12/4/2018 at 5:31 PM, Delicious2 said:
This blend now with K402/TAD and Khorn bass has a lot going for it. I often like the "widescreen" effect I get with them on the living room long wall but sometimes even with the K402's wide coverage I sense a "retreat" in the middle if not an outright hole. There's no way to have a K402 MEH in the fireplace so what about a circuit that will allow me to vary stereo spread? I know there have been preamps with this feature. Can it be added and be fairly transparent?
I realized over the weekend that the Xilica allows me lots of control over stereo spread. Not with a control labeled as such but just by how I mix the inputs into the outputs. It wouldn't be difficult to create presets with L+R full spread, 90% spread, 80% etc. Loading different presets in the Xilica only takes a few seconds and can be done on the fly so might be possible to change settings according to type of music or even recordings that sound best with more or less center emphasis. I'll play with this soon to see if it has the effect I hope.
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After 5 days of playing around the clock (quietly at night) I had some time to get these into initial surround positions - basically replacing in the same place as the much smaller Michael Green 60s.
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1 hour ago, tom1066 said:
Been reading with interest and took the plunge. UPS lost them for five days, but finally got them hooked up. And first listen has been encouraging. Couple of questions if you don't mind. This may be a dumb question but is there any break in? I'm always worried I may not five something the proper amount of time. Then what are placement suggestions. I saw turning the cab upside down but was just wondering. And then I'm using an ashly analog crossover at 500. I think I read thats the right setting. I do have to say it's impressive so far.
Yeah, the upside down arrangement is to get the woofer closer to the AMT if you're doing a 2 way. Chris was suggesting setting the Heil about 6 inches back from the front edge for time alignment with your analog xover or passive.
Curious, where did you read 500 Hz xover? I'm starting with 800 first order (6 db/octave)
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3 minutes ago, jwgorman said:
Is that expanding foam on the top?
No, I think it's the stock padding. Much of the insides are covered in that same padding.
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With a basic first order HP/LP set on the Xilica I'll break these in as mains for a while. Initial impression? They don't give as pleasing a rendition of Seiji Osawa and the BSO performing The Nutcracker in Boston's Symphony Hall as do the K402/TAD/Khorn blend, but, OTOH they don't sound bad even switching back and forth. Checkout the backlit AMT. Perhaps one reason they say "sound as clear as light"😎
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I opened one of these 1985 Cornwall "1.5s" for the first time to wire the woofer directly to the back panel and was surprised to find holes for some alternate tweeter mounting. An experiment by a previous owner maybe.
In The Early 70’s
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
The year 1977, Waterville, ME. A Colby College sophomore I prowled the local hifi shops and 1 featured Klipsch. I remember being impressed but unable to consider the expense and size/weight of Klipschorns. Besides, the "formative" shop back home (Natural Sound) didn't carry any horns. They had Quad ESL (wow!) Beveridge (yowza!) Fulton J's (check the bass) and Snell (more what I could afford). Magnepan MGIIIs (nice!) were mine for a few years until I had to raise some money. I ended up with a 2 way large bookshelf Phillips 475s (cone and dome) for years all I could afford. Later it was Alon IVs for a long time.
Oddly, it took a hunt for Khorn upgrades after I finally got my 1990 pair and a return to Waterville and Greg's shop to hear a more valid variation on the cupped hands demo. Greg held a K400 horn up to his mouth and spoke through it then held up his tractrix aftermarket horn which seemed to have much less coloration. I didn't bite on Greg's upgrade but later got Dave's Eliptrac horns. A nice upgrade from the K400.