SkyDover
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Posts posted by SkyDover
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Claude, I remember seeing those 1976 CornScala Center you posted of your speakers/room, nice picture and setup!! I remember thinking that you were way ahead of your time before it became popular doing CornScalas!!
My SpeakerLab's have the metal K400 with the ribs, but I can't say I hear a difference between them and the K-55 or Atlas PD-5VH when I was testing different horns.... or not that my ears could pick up although I wasn't paying that much attention to it but I remember thinking how the 40 year old SpeakerLab driver surprised me how much it sounded just like the new Atlas PD-5VH driver, I thought I would hear some difference from age but I didn't but others have said that they could hear a difference between old and new diaphragms.
I wonder if the difference you heard, could this have something to do with the Magnar oil that SpeakerLab put in the voice coil gap in their mid drivers? They said it was supposed to be an improvement but some have claimed that it sounded better when they removed it. Maybe mine have dried up after 40 years?
Good point with the bass-bins... sometimes you can get them far cheaper than what just the wood cost to build them, what you save and put the extra $$$ towards custom tops with the drivers you dream about!! Also, thanks for all your sharing here, I really enjoy reading and seeing your projects here!!!
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Triceratops, No apologies needed, I do agree with you that no SpeakerLab's should be pawned off as Klipschorn's saying name tags fell off, I would hope that people would be honest but you never know these days sometimes. I did look at a SpeakerLab pair about 3 years ago, a lady had listed as Klipschorn's and I knew it was SpeakerLab's and I had to tell her the $2800.00 was alot to ask for them not being Klipsch and she explained that a neighbor told her they were worth alot being Klipschorn's, her uncle had passed and it was up to her to sell them. She wasn't sure she believed me but she had someone research it and then called me back and said they were SpeakerLab's and she would sell them for $400.00 if I could pick them up that day. She called two days later and said she would sell them for $250.00 but I still didn't buy them because they weren't what I was looking for, they were not factory made, and they were made out of particle board that looked really crappy when looking at the backs of them and they already had some stress cracks in them being set down too hard or such, but in her case... she didn't know what she had and listened to someone that told her they were Klipschorn's. I wouldn't pay more than $400 to $500 for SpeakerLab's but if they were very rare/special SpeakerLab's than maybe $600 to $1000. If they were built crappy, I wouldn't even take them for free.
SpeakerLab's have their place for those who want to get into them cheaper to enjoy the Klipsch sound with only having to change the crossovers to a Klipsch design crossover. Well, they sound fine with the crossovers they came with but I was too used to the Klipsch sound.
My SpeakerLab's cost very cheap compared to the cost of my Klipchorn's! Not everyone has the budget for Klipschorn's so the next best thing to afford them are SpeakerLab's so this is exactly the route my son took since he says corner horns are way too expensive for him used and new are unattainable for him at this time in his life. He does have RF-7 he loves that he got for a great price too. His SpeakerLab's are a mix of MDF and Plywood and sound fine, they were supposedly built by a carpenter and if I remember right... I think he paid something like $250 to $300 for them.
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>triceratops said:none will ever be built with the precision or structural integrity of a real Klipschorn
I strongly agree with Marvel, It's a statement you can't definitively say unless you compare them. If you are lucky enough to get factory built SpeakerLab's, they've had a great reputation of being very accurate! If it's someone who built them from the SpeakerLab Kit, then it's only as good as the skills of the builder. I was on the look out for factory built real wood SpeakerLab's in my area to compare them to my own Klipschorn's, and finally found a pair that came up. You can imagine how shocked I was with the bass sounding so good on the SpeakerLab's because most I heard was incorrect info given and was warned that they had no bass compared to Klipschorn's but I quickly found that was not true. If you are lucky and get the W1504S woofers in the SpeakerLabs, these are the same as that Klipsch used at the time, the CTS 4ohm 15" woofers. They give plenty of bass and have the square magnet. After comparing them to my Klipschorn's and the SpeakerLab's, these are factory built and use a very high quality built wood and beautiful veneer that surpasses my Klipschorn's and so does the build quality that really surprised me there but I realize these are a very special pair of SpeakerLab's than the norm. None of the particle board/MDF crap at all in them. Their weakness is only the crossovers, the mid and high are too subdued compared to Klipsch, they are 3db to 4db lower in mid/'high output but once you change it to TypeA crossover, it brings it to the same 104/105db, and they've become one of my favorite speakers, even when comparing them to my own Klipsch Klipshorn's, although I still think Roy did a great job with the AK4/5 crossovers than Al thinks! The AK4/5 sound great and you quickly realize this when comparing them to higher end crossovers.
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Yep, like the original K-510 version before the mumps!
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Well, now you can try the K-510 horn brand new if you like for only $49.99 from ZXPC on ebay... looks like he just started carrying them.
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Just seeing that ZXPC on ebay that carries many different horns is now carrying the Klipsch aftermarket replacement K-510 horn for only $49.99. It looks just like it, design and quality wise.
Just wondering if anyone has tried it yet to confirm what quality build is like? Looks like the few who have requested him to carry the K-510 horn has finally gotten their wish now.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Horn-KLIPSCH-for-K510-Speaker-Cabinet-15-x-9-Bolt-On-2-90-x-60/333537431240?hash=item4da8614ec8:g:8pYAAOSwQNNeYpIy
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Wow, I've often thought of how to go about this myself. This really helps and I thank you for taking the time to share this with us all!! Thanks for your well thought out and hard work, Much appreciated!
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When you say that:
wdecho - The range of an L-pad is not enough to attenuate more than 5 or 6 db alone.
Are you referring to the variable L-Pad such as this?:
https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-100w-mono-1-shaft-8-ohm--260-265
These variable L-Pads are often said to only have -6db attenuation but this is untrue.
We've used them many times and I've built my own projects using them. They can be used to -10db
but after around -11db it starts to effect the sound quality. Eminence uses this same exact model
for their variable L-Pad and list it's quality usable to -10db.These L-Pads attenuation are surprisingly accurate if you use this faceplate with them:
https://www.parts-express.com/l-pad-knob-and-faceplate-for-3-8-shaft--260-271
It has a peg on the back of the faceplate that fits into the hole of the L-Pad listed above,
this accurately aligns the faceplate and L-Pad to give the accurate attenuation you seek,
this makes it easy to pick the attenuation you need from the numbers on the
dial, if you pick 6, it's right at -6db. This is how we always use the L-Pads because these
faceplates make attenuation accurate, without them.... your guessing. Many people don't
realize that these faceplates exist or so handy for these L-Pads.I use to have great concerns about the variable L-Pads and how it would effect sound quality if
used in place of the Autotransformers. Many people just mimic what they hear about L-Pads over
the years and believe it, but they aren't bad or suck out the sound quality like some people say.I've used them instead of the autotransfermers and they've worked out great while keeping just as
good sound quality, if you know how to design the crossover.... there shouldn't be a problem.
Where the variable L-Pad becomes so great is the exact dead-on tuning it allows on the fly.I no longer have the sound quality concerns I once had after testing, experimenting, and using them.
Also you hear some avoid because of complaints about the intermittent noise problem the L-Pad wipers
make over time. This can occur when they are stored in areas where they pickup some dampness. The
secret to them is to install fiberfill/polyfill around the L-Pad unit and staple in place, this stops
it from getting any moisture to the wipers. We have some 40 year old L-Pads in one set of speaker horns
and absolutely no noise at all when moving the dial, and I've opened them up and they look as new as
the day they were made from the protection of the fiberfill that was put over them 40 years ago.
I put fiberfill over all my L-Pads now and I've never had a problem with any intermittent noise at all
and installed over 100 variable L-Pads of my own so far.
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No matter what anyone else says, my favorite by far are the phenolic both for midrange and tweeters!!! I have both titanium and phenolic speakers and at one time I thought I was in the Titanium camp until I gained more experience with phenolic drivers.
Phenolic have a quality level to them that are better to my ears that titanium can't match, and YES you can hear a difference.... anyone saying you can't must not have well trained ears to pickup the difference but for me it's very easy to hear the differences.
When a Klipsch Cornwall III speakers came up for sale locally, I quickly acted and bought them at a great price, the guy had them brand new unopened in their original box in black, they had lost their home and was selling everything. The Cornwall III sounded nice but I was disappointed with the smaller mid horn Klipsch decided to use than the original size compared to my old Cornwall speakers, I ended up having to build a DIY to get a bigger horn and I was more than pleased with the results, the phenolic drivers sounded better to me than the titanium!! That's why I went DIY. I sold the Cornwall III after comparing them with the DIY super Cornwall's after about two months or so.
The phenolic sound better to my ears, I'm still amazed by their quality sound compared to titanium. Some can't even hear the difference but like I said, it's very easy for me to hear the difference. Phenolic wins to these ears, that's way I wish Klipsch would continue to use phenolic but it's cheaper to manufacturer the titanium these days.
Yes, the Cornwall III do sound nice but I suppose I'm the only one who still feels the original Cornwall's with the phenolic drivers sound better!! The Cornwall III is still a fine speaker... I still liked the sound of them... Klipsch makes fine speakers, never heard a bad sounding Klipsch speaker yet!
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I own many Klipsch speakers..... Klipschorn, KLF-20, Forte II, Cornwall, RF-7, Chorus II, and DIY Super Cornwalls (similar to CornScala). Klipsch makes some great speakers, I've never heard a bad Klipsch speaker yet. The original RF-7 is still my favorite out of all the RF-7 generations. I've listened to both RF-7 and RF-7II, both at retail dealer and short while at home when my son bought the RF-7II and setup at our house before he moved out. My son and I both preferred the original RF-7 over the RF-7II after we compared them side by side. It's not that we didn't like the RF-7II, we did. It's pleasant, balanced, and very nice sounding and a little more polite sounding than the original RF-7. The original RF-7 is a little more bold and a bit more detailed and we loved that about it. It's not too hot at all, I think those who say it's hot has more to do with the equipment they are using, it is more sensitive to that because it's a very revealing speaker, but used with top quality equipment it sounds great, it's sounds excellent with both movies and music. As many speakers as I have, I still have not been able to let my RF-7 speakers go. The original RF-7 made a huge hit in Germany with it's high detail presentation. Of course you can't get the original RF-7 speakers new anymore so the RF-7 II is the next best thing and certainly goes better with many different equip brands, and they do sound very nice, I was still impressed with them even if I did prefer the original RF-7 but I overall do prefer a more detailed sound. :) or HOT top as some call it.
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Sounds nice! I've heard some really like that combo but I've not heard them yet myself.... maybe one day! Even listening to the GM-450PB horn it sounds really nice so I'll leave them in that set of speakers. Now I have 7 crossovers to build for 7 speaker builds.... will see how long this project takes me to complete! It took me a whole month to complete my last build with only able to do it during my free time. Enjoy!
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I think it being deeper, (long throw) helps it to be louder and more easily heard throwing the sound more towards you, where as the short throw is less in your face plus the diffraction slot constricts the sound a little more except for the vocals. If your listening position is about 10 to 12 feet and you have sensitive hearing... might be best to go with a short throw horn, if your listening at 15 feet plus, than a long throw might be fine depending on your ears.
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4" Selenium D405 phenolic diaphragm, 2" K-55 (Atlas PD-5VH) phenolic diaphragm, and 1.7" Selenium D220ti titanium diaphragm.
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The Pyle Pro PDB952 driver sounds great on the ZXPC horn, did some listening test with it this morning and like it. I think I will use this driver with the ZXPC horn on my upcoming build. Another forum member told me how great the PDB952 sounds, especially for the price, thanks for that tip! I found it locally for $90.00 and a real steal for the quality of this driver!! It's built better than the Selenium D405, much heavier, and all solid heavy metal, no cheap plastic cover like the selenium driver. I really like the sound of Phenolic drivers for
Mid and Tweeters over the Titaniums but the Selenium are staying in the CornScalas.
The PDB952 is half the cost of the Selenium driver, a great find! Here is the Pyle/ZXPC next to the Selenium/GM450:
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Selenium D405 driver with GM-450PB horn:
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Looking at the PRV WG45-50 specs, it looks like it comes close to the size of the GM-450PB. The good about the PRV horn, it's without the
diffraction slot!
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Pictures: ZXPC Horn Left - GM-450PB Horn Right
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The seller ZXPC was very quick shipping the horns out, UPS delivered them early this morning.
I spent all day testing and listening to them. I actually weighed and measured each horn:
Goldwood GM-450PB Horn - Actual Weight/Size (3pounds 6oz) 17-1/2"W x 9-1/2"L x 9-1/8"D
ZXPC 432 Horn - Actual Weight/Size (3pounds 5oz) 17-1/2"W x 11"L x 11-3/8"D (12"D with outside FaceLip)
This was a very interesting experiment! I didn't expect there would be much difference between the two
horns but there certainly was. This proves to me that the diffraction slot that most suggest avoiding
in horns if you want sound quality.... is true. The diffraction slot interferes with the overall sound.
Here are the differences I found between these two horns:
Goldwood GM-450PB (Diffraction Slot Horn)
ZXPC 432 (Non Diffraction Slot Horn)
I did these test with four adults listening ears and present was small children and teenagers.
I used the same amp, source, volume, and same driver between each horn, just
switching between them as we listened to the music and vocals.
Right away you can hear the ZXPC horn without a diffraction slot sounds much more open and everything
sounds more uniform and better all around balance, lower frequencies are better heard, vocals are more
open and clear sounding, music has better overall resolution and detail.
With the GM-450PB with diffraction slot, the lows sound less heard and the vocals are more forward in
kind of a piercing way. The GM-450PB horn has always sounded good to me and I've liked it but not so
much when comparing it with the ZXPC horn. Certain frequencies are less heard with the GM-450PB horn
but more in favor of the vocals taking priority but can sound a bit piercing and harsh somewhat at
times, where the ZXPC horn doesn't or is much more less noticed. The build quality on both horns are
good and hefty enough for large heavy drivers, they are close in build quality with slightly better on
the Goldwood GM-450PB. The Goldwood is the smaller horn but weighs 1oz. more than the ZXPC bigger horn,
if the ZXPC was built like the Goldwood, it would weigh close to 4 pounds.
The ZXPC horn sounds louder at same volumes than the GM-450PB horn, almost like that diffraction slot
is constricting some of the sound in the GM-450PB horn but the ZXPC just overall sounds better as if
it's letting all the sound out in a natural uniform free flowing way with high and low frequencies
just all blend together well at the same levels. I can hear higher frequencies and weaker lower
frequencies with the GM-450PB horn. It's very easy to hear... anyone should be able to hear the
difference right away. If you push the volumes at high levels, much louder than I ever listen to, the
GM-450PB can start to get more piercing sounding in the higher frequencies, like the SSS in female vocals,
chimes, bells, etc. that hit in the higher freq.
Everyone picked the ZXPC horn in the room as the best sounding, no one person picked the GM-450PB, I was
surprised about that! The kids couldn't say specifically what it was they liked about the ZXPC horn
but said it just sounds better that they like that one (ZXPC). I do use the GM-450PB horn on my
center channel speaker and it seems to work well for that purpose with it's type of vocal presentation
of throwing the vocals more forward than some of the rest of the sound but I bet even the ZXPC horn
might do better but I'm stuck with the GM-450PB horn for center speaker, the ZXPC horn and driver
combo are too long for that cabinet.
I have not done any test plots between these two horns as of yet, only listening test. I had done some
test plots a few years ago on the GM-450PB horn and recall those were pretty good results.
The 4 bolt-On mounts for both horns GM-450PB and ZXPC are near identicle to the standard 4-bolt and I
had no problems mounting the drivers to either.
Does the ZXPC horns make me want to replace my GM-450PB horns? Yes, they do!! I can't fault the GM-450PB
horns because I've always thought they sound good, but switching between the horns while listening, the
ZXPC sounds so much better that I would like to use it instead but my CornScala's that use the GM-450PBhorns are not deep enough to accommodate the ZXPC horn and driver combo either, but I am going to use these
ZXPC horns in a new speaker build I'm planning.
Hope this helps anyone curious about diffraction slot horns as I was!
Pictures: ZXPC Horn Left - GM-450PB Horn Right
Horns:
Goldwood GM-450PB $49.25
http://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gm-450pb-2-high-frequency-horn-4-bolt--270-204
PRV Audio WG45-50 $47.99
http://www.parts-express.com/prv-audio-wg45-50-2-90-x-40-abs-waveguide-4-bolt--294-2893
ZXPC 432 $39.99-
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Hi, I was just starting to write up the review.
I had no problems mounting, the mount 4 bolt holes are just like the Goldwood. I used theSelenium D405 phenolic driver for test. This is for a 3-way setup. We also listened to the ZXPC and GM-450PB horns running single without
woofer or tweeter to see if we still liked what we were hearing, from 500hz to 5000hz and the ZXPC was still the winner of everyone's choice.
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It is deeper, ZXPC also has one very similar and size to the PRV WG45-50 for $34.99 and free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/398-2-Throat-Horn-Bolt-On-18-x10-For-Assorted-Bolt-2-Exit-Drivers-90-x40-/231420420855
I debated which to get but then decided on the longer horn, it will fit in my upcoming speaker build
and I recieved some good advice to go with the deeper horn from an audio builder who has tested and uses the
horns, he was the one who gave me the link to buy the horn or I would have never known about it.
ZXPC has a variety of 1",1-3/8",1.5", and 2" exit horns and adapters for fair prices:
http://stores.ebay.com/ZXPC/Horns-/_i.html?_fsub=6613637016&_sid=129580556
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Thanks wdecho for the suggestion, but that is the Goldwood GM-450PB horn I'm already using and was curious how the PRV WG45-50 horn compared to it.
I went to order the PRV WG45-50 horn from Parts Express but they have been out of stock for a while, also on the Goldwood horn too.
I did find a large horn here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-17-ABS-2-Bolt-On-Long-Throw-Horn-90-x-40-For-Many-2-Exit-Driver-/331676072699
so I ordered it and will test it and compare it to the Goldwood horn. It's 17.5"w x 11"L x 12"D Bolt-On Long Throw Horn 90° x 40° 2" Exit Driver.
A good deal at $40 with free shipping. I'll report back how they sound.
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Thanks for the follow up.... I may have to give the PRV horns a try myself.
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I've been curious about the PRV Audio WG45-50 horns myself. I have some P.Audio PH-4525 and Goldwood GM-450PB horns, which are built the same and exactly idential... same material and heavy duty design but the Goldwood is half the price, they are made by the same manufacturer and have a slotted throat (diffraction slot) as you mentioned so the non-slotted PRV horn got my attention over at Parts-Express.
I've seen in the past that you were using the P.Audio PH-4525 horn for center channel. How does the PRV Audio WG45-50 horn compare from your memory of when you had the P.Audio PH-4525 horn? Which sounds better to your ears? Does it sound better than the PH-4525 slotted thoat? Thanks for any info, just curious if I should give the PRV horn a try if it sounds any better than the PH-4525 horn? Thanks -
Ok, I'm just realizing that after going back and re-reading, they used the Delta 15LF in Cornwall Clones, not LaScala. I don't see any used in the LaScala so being horn loaded, it might not be as forgiving as a bass reflex for specs being slightly different.
Rotel experience with LS II's,...
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Yes, it's been well known over the last 20 years or so that Klipsch and Rotel has a very good synergy together. If you look here on the Klipsch forums in the achieves of past post, you will see others that have talked about it here. It was originally suggested here on the Klipsch forum to me with Rotel and I still have Rotel RB-1080 and RB-1090 amps and still love the sound from them. I stopped running tube amps when I switched to Rotel with it's tube-like sound. Now I have a collection of different amps but my Rotel RB-1090 remains one of my most favorite with my Klipsch speakers.... Cornwall, Klipschorn, RF-7, and KLF-20. Thanks for sharing!!