Kevin S
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Posts posted by Kevin S
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Well, this is truly a mystery. I am half joking when I ask this, because I don't imagine they are, but are the speakers shipped with any type of protective foam that is placed in the horns or on the grill cloth that could still be in place?
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15 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:
Here are two FR graphs of my system. The first has the speakers set to small. The second graph, the RF 7 II's are set to Large. I loose all the low end beef starting around 35 Hz. The subs are meant to give you the low end beef. Having the RF 7 II set to large is almost like not having all the subs in my system. This is the result of phase and cancellation issues. I loose 30 db at 15 Hz, wow, that is a lot to give away. To get this back I would need an addition 10 subwoofer! Even then the subs and mains would be working harder than with the speakers set to small due to the phase and cancellation issues.
Note, from 50-80 Hz with the speakers set to small, the spl is around 6 db higher. This is the added head room for the chest slam in movies. You don't want to give that up either. It's not about how good the subs or speakers are, it's physics. With the RF 7's set to large, it's like not having eight 18 in. subwoofers in my system.
Am I wrong in thinking that when you set your speakers to large in your system that it has in fact either turned off your sub's, or simply stopped directing the low frequencies from the RF7's channels to the sub, hence the loss of the bass below 30hz? If so, that has nothing to do with phase or cancellation issues, does it? Would the bass below 30hz not be restored if you set the speakers to small but used say a 40hz crossover?
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Audyssey fools with far more than just frequency response. And what it does in one room is in no way transferable to another. And microphone placements within the same room can make night and day differences. You really should start from scratch, as in 2 channel with only the LaScala's, IMO. Best of luck!
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My Heresy III's sound worse with Audyssey than without. And I have measured them in a multitude of microphone positions. This was not the case with my previous speakers. Personally, I would turn off Audyssey, turn off the subs, and start fine tuning positioning and toe in. Keep in mind that PWK recommended 45 degree toe in, so don't be inhibited by "audiophile" dogma.
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I agree with the above post. I have no experience with any of the "upgrader's". But I would put my trust in the product of PWK and Roy Delgado. As I did.
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I owned the Ohm 2000's prior to getting my Heresy's. I would like to make a couple of suggestions based on your photo:
1. Do not toe them in. The tweeters already fire at a 45 degree angle when they are not toed in. You should be having a lot of sound being bounced off the face of the TV with your current amount of toe in.
2. Move the left speaker out to be at least even with the front of the cabinet, and a bit further if you can tolerate it. Then make the right speaker be the same distance from the wall behind it. The Ohms perform best when they are clear of any obstructions between them and their 180 degree forward radiation is as unimpeded as possible.
Hopefully you will then get the benefit of their intended frequency balance and a stable sweet spot as wide as the distance between the speakers.
Hope this helps! Enjoy your speakers.
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Mine plays loud enough for me before distorting, but I don't make it compete with a roaring hot tub! My guess is if you had measured the spl of the hot tub while sitting in it, you wouldn't have expected a 3" Bluetooth speaker to get the job done. FWIW, I turn mine up all the way, back it off one click, and control the volume from my phone. I gets pretty darn loud before distorting, at least for a 3" speaker.
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Depends entirely on my mental state of mind and it's ability to focus itself on the music. Time of day isn't as important as the mental aspect. Work and life makes evenings the most likely time to reach the necessary state of mind. Sipping a Maker's Mark is not necessary, but contributes to the overall relaxation of mood.
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There is almost no "harm" that your 3 db adjustment can be doing to the sound quality of your speakers. If you have the sound you like after that small adjustment, be happy, save your money and time, and enjoy the result you have obtained.
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Digital, using a Mac Mini as the player. Lossless CD's, ITunes and HDTracks. 1982 Denon DP72L looking pretty on the rack, completely unused.
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IMO, when purchasing any of the speakers that PWK was involved in designing and manufacturing, the best place to start is by reading Dope from Hope and trying to place your speakers as he intended them to be placed. Floor, corner (if possible) or against the wall and 45 degree toe in. None of these things adhere to current audiophile "wisdom". Then you can move away from any of this to suit your particular circumstances and taste. But at least start where the designer intended. Keep in mind, he believed that any speaker would benefit from corner placement and that any excess in bass caused by corner placement could be cured by turning down the bass tone control!
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I have listened quite a bit since re-running Audyssey. And although Audyssey sounds much better this time than in the past, I am sticking to listening to music in Pure Mode (Heresy's only, no subs, no room correction). They just sound "right" to me this way. I am fortunate to get bass into the 40's from the Heresy's in my room and the Heresy bass just sounds better by itself. Audyssey did a better job of not spoiling the Heresy dynamics in the mids and highs this time, but even those have a bit of extra dynamics when left alone. I will leave Audyssey, with it's DynamicEQ engaged, and the bass augmented with the subwoofers crossed over at 80hz, for TV and movies.
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It does seem to me that since everyone plays with the microphone positioning until they get it to sound "right", that even when used, it becomes "preference" not "reference". I would think that there should be a standardized "reference" criteria for microphone positioning, and thus, true "reference" results. As it stands, it seems to me to be a very sophisticated, yet easily manipulated, equalizer.
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So I have re-run Audyssey this morning, using a new microphone placement that I had never tried because it doesn't conform to all of the recommendations. I placed the microphone on a short tripod, and placed it at even intervals spanning about 8 feet of the top of the back of my 10 foot long couch. My Heresys are 10 feet apart, inside edge to inside edge, on the floor against the wall and toed in to fire at the opposite ends of the couch. This roughly 45 degree of toe in gives a sweet spot the width of the couch. The center image is very stable along the entire length of the couch, but varies a bit depending on the recording. Initial listening to music sounds much better than I recall my previous attempts as sounding. Maybe I have found a way to get a preference out of the reference with these microphone placements. We'll see if this hold up as I listen further. FWIW, as in all previous calibrations, Audyssey reports the Heresys as being 3 db down at 40hz.
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Folks at Audyssey used to say "reference vs. preference". But there are only reference standards for movie audio, not music. Music is definitely recorded to the artists/producers preference. So I have evolved into the "preference" camp for music listening as well.
I have made some changes in speaker placement recently to achieve my music "preference". So, I am going to re-run Audyssey in the near future, and use it only for TV/movie viewing.
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Until my Heresy III's, using my Audyssey XT32 had always seemed to be an improvement. For whatever reason, even after many varieties of attempts, Audyssey's "smoothing out" of the Heresy's seems to rob them of some of the dynamics they are famous for. Bass blended well with the subs, but on music sounds better without Audyssey or the subs. So I listen to music using the Pure Mode on my Onkyo receiver but use the subs for TV and movies. No Audyssey in either case however.
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Since they were designed to be placed on the floor, near floor/wall/corner boundaries, and tilted back a bit, try to place them that way when auditioning would be my main recommendation.
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Before changing equipment (or speaker placement) by "ear", does your AVR have the ability to take room response measurements and report your bass lower limit to you. If so, I would recommend taking a couple of measurements at slightly different listening position and speaker placement locations. Moving your listening position or speaker placements as little as 6" to 12" could make a noticeable difference. My Onkyo AVR has reported my lower 3db down point as both 50hz and 40hz depending on the speaker/listening positions.
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Placement of your Heresy's is the key. In relationship to your floor, corners, front wall and listening position. Floor is a must. Against the wall is a must. Corners are best. Tilt them back a bit. Make sure your listening position isn't in a bass null by moving the seat forward or back a bit. My Heresy III's are about 5db down at 40hz. Not subwoofer territory, but I do not use my subs for music listening any more as I prefer the Heresy bass on its own.
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Mine, positioned on the floor, against the wall and toed in 45 degrees, are 3-5 db. down at 40hz. This is measured with a Rat Shack meter and by Audyssey.
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yikes that's low. Have you tried crossing them over higher? I can't imagine heresey having much output at 40hz. Mine never did. I run big speakers now with dual 15's and still cross them at 80Heresy III's. Nope. Wouldn't want to place them that way! Audyssey has them crossing over to the subs (which are in diagonal corners) at 40 hz! Room is about 26 x 23. They sound great to me.
I have tried higher and keep going back. The blend between the Heresy's and the subs seems very seamless at 40.
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Rudimentary checking with test tones and my Rat Shack meter, without Audyssey engaged, seems to bear it out. So does listening without Audyssey. I have re-run Audyssey several times after moving the subs around and widening out the Heresy's and 40hz was the number every time. The miracle of boundary reinforcement/room gain I guess.
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Approximately 26x23x8. Asymmetrical long wall placement. Hope this helps.
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Heresy III's. Nope. Wouldn't want to place them that way! Audyssey has them crossing over to the subs (which are in diagonal corners) at 40 hz! Room is about 26 x 23. They sound great to me.
Klipsch RF7 ii + SVS PB2000
in Home Theater
Posted
Thanks for the reply. I was actually asking about your system and your graphs. When your RF7's are set to large, no signal is being sent to your subs, hence reduced bass output in the RF7 set to large graph. Correct? Not really anything to do with phase or cancellation? Just curious.