Heritage_Head

Lmao i can’t imagine having awesome speakers just waiting for me and not doing anything. He’s a stronger man then me. I just order my first SACD cd (pink Floyd dark side of the moon) can’t wait to try it out. It’s really hard for me to listen to cds in just 2 channel. I’m too spoiled now with digital 5.1. So im excited to hear how a 5.1 SACD will sound in my set up(The Wall is coming out in feb2012). By the way still waiting for your review on the rf-7ii.

I thought you had your rf-63 sold?

Wow the 7s make the rf-63s look tiny []

Np ray sounds like you got the jist of it. Bass in general for so many reasons can be really hard to get right depending on how you want it to sound. For some it’s as simple as a $150 10” 100watt polk sub. For others it can cost thousands. It’s easily my favorite part of ht when it’s right.

I think when you are playing music (2 channel) or anything not 5.1 encoded; only the crossover settings apply. When playing 5.1 encoded (movie) tracks; the LFE channel is separate. (I believe). If I am mistaken on this; please correct it for me. (Break it down in a simplified manner please). Brunt; I am with you; I let my sub do 60 hz and down....... I may experimant more with the LFE settings; but honestly; my movies sound great and my music even better; so..... Right on iron slave you nailed it. The .5 is separate channel of its own but when listening to 2 channel music 120 hz would be way to high imo. There is no perfect science to all this so whatever sounds best to you is going to be the right setting.

The .5(lfe) is aseparate channel of bass content of its own that’s mixed in by the sound engineers for the movies. If you could somehow disable all the other channels the lfe would still pump out its own bass content. That changes when you start setting speakers to small as I go over in the above posts. When watching a movie the lfe bandwidth content is 20-120 Hz. If you crossover your sub lower than that you will lose bass content that’s in that channel for that movie. That doesn’t mean you can’t it’s just not recommended. This is for movies as the link above goes over. So when listening to other sources like cds it would be better to set the sub much lower than 120 Hz (probably like 50 or 60 tops).

Lol Yes I read your post sorry my comment wasn’t meant to sound like I didn’t I was just talking about amp sizes in different types of subs. The 50watt amp comment wasn’t actually directed at your set up. Although I can certainly see why you would have thought it was after re reading my post. Anyway anything’s possible but head room would be my main concern running a small amp vs a bigger one. It might have the potential to reach a high db rating but would limit your overall settings. A good example would be your comment about how using an eq limits your power. Even though someone could get a high db level with a small amp what happens on the next movie that has even more bass demand does the amp clip. And to take that a step further if some is watching a movie it would be way easier when the bass really hits to run an amp to clip vs a larger one with more head room.

It may seem backwards but because of how audio engineers mix movies you’re not really changing that much using the small setting for most of the channels when using 80hz or lower (other than the fronts and maybe a tiny bit for the center). They know better that anyone how things are set up in movie theaters and ht. And they mix the audio tracks accordingly. It wouldn’t make any sense to put a bunch of 20 Hz content to speakers they know wouldn’t have ANY chance of reproducing it (even in there studios). So all the low content gets sent to the lfe channel before we even get it to are blu ray players.

LOL...I'm not sure I'm following either What I think your saying is that you want your sub playing all LFE content available and that said content goes up to 120hz. I'm sorta cloudy on what setting your speakers to big or small actually does. I don't agree with some people's advice to set all your speakers to 80hz but that may be a seperate subject. My on screen display and owners manual does not do a good job of explaining the "small" and "large" settings. On the first part you are correct about my point that the lfe channels content goes up to 120 Hz. Lowering your subs crossover below 120 Hz would lose lfe content. On the large vs small I have spent so many hours learning on this topic and just when I thought I understood it all I found that to be untrue. Here’s the most basic way it works: if you leave all your speakers set to large all that means is you’re not changing anything, and everything is going to play just how the movies audio engineers mixed it to play. We could call this a factory audio setting I guess. If you change any speakers to small you are changing the factory setting to what audio information goes to what speakers. So if you set your speakers to small and cross them over at 80 Hz you’re rerouting the audio information below 80 Hz to the subs channel (lfe). The thing to remember is that almost all movie theaters crossover there surround and rear speakers to 80Hz (that’s a fact!). Audio engineers that do the audio mixing on movies know this so they don’t put much if any content below 80 Hz to the surrounds anyways (what would be the point). Having a seamless audio mix means no overlapping frequencies so if you looked at a graph and ran just the surrounds you’re not going to see any low frequencies coming out of them anyways. So setting them to small at 80 Hz does very little if anything. If you have super small surrounds and want to protect them by setting them to 120 Hz that would probably change it a little but it would be more for peace of mind. A big reason that they say to set your fronts to 80 Hz is so you don’t have phase issues with your subs. As I said before speakers use analog crossover networks, and the avr and a lot of subs use digital crossover processing. Digital and analog processing speed is different so that can mean the timing/phase can be different. Depends on the sub though my old klipsch subs integrated fine. But my svs uses a digital processor so it took some tinkering. Having a bass eq like the sms-1 makes it way easier to get a smooth bass response having the 3 subs and setting the mains to large. In your set up Jason I would run it all large unless you’re having bass issues then you might try setting your mains and center to 50 Hz. But if you like your bass and don’t have phase issues I would go large.

Apples and oranges... My sub is horn-loaded. It wll reach reference typically with 30W depending on frequency content (I use EQ extensively because my in-rrom response is preety bad), and it shakes the whole house in Tron at reference level maxing out the amp. I'm lying a bit about 50W... It's a harmon-kardon avr-325 rated at 55WPC but bench tested at 157W into 4 ohms driving a single front channel, which is close to what I am doing. I could double that power into my sub, but likely not much more, before reaching x-max. This way I feel comfortable knowing I am not that close to bottoming out the driver. But I could use a second THT for sure, or a Cimena F-20. EDIT: The THT sub is under construction in my current avatar. (Agreed) That sub does look awesome and if I had better wood skills I would have probably built all my subs just like that one. Also I understand the value of the enclosure is huge. The bigger the box the less power is needed that’s why small little cubs like sunfire, and def tecs use monster amps that are always in the 1000 to 2500 watt range, and still can’t compete with a big box with an amp half the size (50watts is still too small for any sub application even horn loaded for my taste). Have you thought about trying a pro amp like behringer for your sub? I have read a lot of people love them and are an amazing value for price. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CHoQgwgwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBehringer-EPQ1200-Professional-Accelerated-Technology%2Fdp%2FB003F651W8&ei=pYg7Tq6dDfLhsQLP8735Dw&usg=AFQjCNE2sovUHj3kk3K3ZFMcd9kH0BBekA

Brunt LFE is mixed at 20-120 Hz so the sub itself when watching a movie should never be crossed over under 120 Hz or you could be losing bass content in the movie. But when using bass management in your avr by setting speakers to small, what he’s saying is to not crossover those speakers that are set too small to over the 60 Hz range. Or you increase the odds of adding content to your sub that will make it more localizable. (Wow that’s actually a word lol)

Also that article you linked is exactly what I have been saying in this thread about how it all works together. The 5 to 7 channels are all Full bandwidth (20-20,000 Hz) but they don’t handle any of the lfe content unless you have an avr function like double bass turned on where you send the lfe content to the fronts. All that full bandwidth means is that those channels have the ability and flexibility to have the full bandwidth of information to them from 20-20,000hz. I think when people see full bandwidth they immediately think it means that all their speakers are getting the full load as well as lfe content unless they set the speakers to small. That would be false because there only getting the content from their separate channel. So when making a movie and mixing the audio channels they aren’t going to be sending a lot of super low end content in the 20-75 Hz range to the surrounds or even the center anyways. So setting those speakers to small in most cases (other than 5 channel music like cds) doesn’t really do too much (unless you crossover really high like over 100 Hz). The fronts however do get a pretty good amount of low end bass content (but it’s not lfe content). The biggest issue with setting your mains to large is phase and timing issues with your subs. Because speakers normally use basic analog crossovers and an avr uses a digital processor. The speeds in processing are usually different from each other. So it’s easy to end up out of phase. So in most cases it can take some time getting your sub or subs integrated with your front speakers if you set them to large. And as I can attest to that can definitely take some time and tinkering to get right.

Not positive if I understood what you meant but to be clear the .1(lfe channel) is 100% separate from the other channels. It doesn’t take any information from other channels unless you send it there by setting speakers to small and setting a crossover point for those speakers(Bass management). Then and only then does your sub handle bass content from other channels other than the lfe channel. Before we had Dolby digital 5.1 your right the processors took the stereo 2 channel information and then split it into separate channels based on all the info we gave it and it’s processing. But from the very first 5.1(someone might jump in with an earlier one) system tell now we have completely separate channels that have all their own info including a separate lfe channel stored right on the disc. Bass management is where we reroute the low frequencies from those channels (l/r/c/sr/sl) to the sub (on top of the lfe info). Audioholics had a great article on this they did blind fold testing to find out what frequencies really where non directional (it’s said to be 120 Hz). They found that 60 Hz was actually the magic frequency and anything above 60 Hz is where people could stat pointing out where they had placed the sub in the room. So he said when possible run the lfe(sub) at 120hz and the other speakers no higher than 60 Hz. So you don’t get any extra content to the sub from other channels above 60 Hz. This is just one article of one person’s opinion so it’s not facts. Sometimes depending on what speakers we have 60 Hz isn’t an option.

Wow, there's an honest (and rare) opinion! Unless you are driving the amp to clipping and the amp can handle the impedence of the speakers, you probably won't notice. I don't either. Interesting...Do you think this is do to some (not all) people "hearing" the amount of money they spent on an amp versus an actual improvement? Bingo. Maybe in a large room type a difference would b more evident. Depends on how loud you listen to your system. Personally I crank it up pretty loud. It’s just easier to watch at reference levels with more power. A 200x5 amp gives 1,000 watts total. An avr is more like 120x2 which is 240 watts total. I think some avrs are better than others when it comes to power. So the upgrade will be more with some than others. I think my avr was bench tested in a review at only about 45x5 watts (it’s a 2k retail avr. Paid only 1100 though). I did read a denon avr review that benched close to about 70x5 so it varies a little. But if someone watches movies at an average of only about 1 -10 watts per channel. Then the avr would be plenty. But if you like to listen to stuff at about 100 watts or more average per channel then you would want that extra 100 watts per channel of head room for the loud parts of movies. In my system I noticed a huge difference when watching movies. But when just watching tv at normal listening levels I don’t hear any difference. So an amp isn’t for everyone. In my case, movies are less demanding on speakers than some music, but more demanding on my sub amplification. I have lots of headroom with the speakers, about 10 dB, reaching reference level for movies with my 50WPC AVR. So the external amp is not needed there. Only on rare music demos will I crank it up louder than that for music. The sub on the other hand has no headroom left because I use one channel of another 50WPC receiver to drive it. I could get a pro amp for it, but than I might be worried about overdriving it with excessive voltage. I agree 50 watts for a sub would be really light. I have 2600watts total rms in my 3 sub amps (1200/800/600). I probably use about 80% of it (2080watts). Depending on the movie I probably use about half of the xpa-5 power (500watts). One could certainly drive everything with 50watts per channel and be happy. I guess my argument was if someone could hear an advantage to having 200x5 amp vs just an avr powering everything. I think a large % of people don’t need it. But i think a large 100% of people will notice the difference.

It can’t hurt to try it but subs are picky about the spot they sit in. if you set it up and are satisfied with the bass performance, and it looks nice I say go for it. But my guess is you will probably lose bass compared to other spots. But ya never know.

I can’t speak to Velodyne directly but I know almost all speaker brands that were sold at ultimate electronics (friend worked there) the retail price was almost twice the actual cost. So if they sold a pair of rf-7ii the stores cost was about 1600 for a pair. Def tech was even less so it’s a crazy mark up. I said this on another forum a few months ago but if these brands don’t change they will all be gone.

You can always tinker with different settings and find what sounds best. Because you don’t have a power amp it might be good to keep all your speakers at small to conserve the power you have. But by all means try setting your fronts to large and leave everything else the way it is. Don’t just pop in a blu ray and listen for 5min though. Live with it for a few weeks. And see how you like it. Me personally I like how the subs sound when only handling lfe content. For my ears when I start flooding more bass content to the subs from other channels on top of the lfe channel that’s already being sent to the sub. To me the subs start sounding really muddy. Keep in mind I have 3 subs so I’m not trying to get extra bass from my other speakers. I’m trying to limit the bass content sent to my subs without having a hole in the lfe by crossing over the subs under 120. Do you like how your sub sounds right now?

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Metal feet pics

So they are pulling everything from there retail stores. http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/velodyne-fires-reps-sells-direct-online

Most systems will probably sound better with the sub as a crutch. THX recommendation is from what would be best for the norm. Because it would be imposable to give a recommendation for every speaker/amp/room /sub combination they give one recommendation that would work pretty good in every set up and is probably the optimal set up for the average ht set up. What they would consider average would be (I read this a long time ago so I’m guessing a little on this part) 5/7 identical large to small bookshelf type speakers and a sub. Set up with an avr powering the 5/7 speakers and a separate amp powering the sub. There are many deficiencies in that set up that can be improved by running everything at 80 Hz (save power and not over work the speakers). By adding power and using higher level speakers the need to use the sub as a crutch decreases a lot. You can still set everything at 80 hz and it will sound great. But you have other options depending on your ht set up. I know that most people will probably say 80 Hz but that’s mostly because most of the recommendations they read say that for all the reasons I gave above. 80 hz is a great staring point if someone’s not sure, and would be a good setting if someone doesn’t want to tinker too much. But every set up is different and will sound different so 80 hz isn’t the bible it’s just a good starting point

Any 5.1 I would recommend the lfe to 120 Hz or no crossover (same). If you set it lower then 120 you can end up with a small hole in the lfe content. Example: you set the sub to 80 Hz; you would have a hole from 80-120 Hz. One could easily argue that the hole is so small it wouldn’t matter I guess. However if you add content (more than just lfe) to your sub by setting your speakers to small you might have to run it lower than 120. I’m always trying to think of best way to explain this. The part I think that gets overlooked with setting speakers to small is this. If each channel (5.1) was a river of water all flowing with just their channels content (everything is set to large). The sub only gets the .5 channel of content and nothing else. By setting speakers to small you redirect the filtered content to the subs channel (river). When you do it to all the channels what you can end up with is a waterfall of bass content sent just to the sub on top of the lfe content. With a waterfall of bass content coming from every channel you almost have to set the sub to a lower crossover point or the sub will just rattle the house and not sound smooth and deep. But if the sub is only running the lfe content and not bass from the other speakers then setting a sub to 120 hz will sound great. 120 hz is pretty easy for any sub 18” or smaller.