erik2A3

Whew. Ok, thanks. Selling our Klipschorns was something I regret a bit now. I have first hand experience with the manner in which both they, as well as of course La Scalas, which have the same mid and HF frequency components, are able to effortlessly load a room. And with the K-horns 21 feet apart in good corners, and with the k400s aimed directly at one's face so that it it's possible to look down their throats, they image like no other speaker I've heard. It's really amazing. I was also fascinated by Klipsch's work with a phantom center channel, and posted here many years ago how building the mini-box to split R and L signals into a third for another mono amp and a Heresy was for me truly a transformative experience. I can't remember the exact year I did that, but it was probably around 2005 or 6. There were a number of very interesting discussions about it which, for some ridiculous reason turned into the usual saloon brawl. The Klipsch forum was really like the Old West in those days. Solder-slinging outlaws! Anyway. I'll post some pictures in a bit.

Well, ok. I suspect it's a good thing there was no money involved. As I said and feel compelled to say again, I really don't why that worked out as it did. Our life was very complicated at that time. My mom had passed away; I had a second very major back surgery, and was on medical leave during the same time we were both frantically packing up and trying to sell our house in order to move closer to my dad after my mom passed away. And again, I will publicly apologize to you for it. My reputation with respect to buying and selling, or in many cases giving away valuable equipment that I could have sold, is good. I have also undertaken complicated and very time consuming amplifier repairs, for people I don't even know, free of charge because they couldn't find anyone willing to do the work, which I did free of charge. Or built amplifier kits people sent to me also at no cost. And so I'm sorry once again if I disappointed you as much as I apparently did. There is nothing I can do about it now. Madisound in Wisconsin sells a flat pack rear loaded horn kit that is virtually identical to the one we are talking about. I have built them before, and they go together very well as long as you have a good number of clamps. In terms of cost for the quality of both design and materials, the cost for a stereo pair is very fair. Lastly, if you are looking for a pair of La Scalas and have even the slightest reservation based on that now quite distant pair of free enclosures (for which I had paid $300), I would strongly suggest you with-hold interest in mine. Would it be ok with you if we let this go now? I feel sufficiently bad.

True enough, but it definitely helps when you build your own. 1000 Watt monblocks?! Just not enough to get those woofers moving..

SWL Yes! I'm able to do that work! I've heard people have been really happy about those small but significant changes. Thanks!

I don't even feel slightly defensive, and apologize if what I wrote came across that way. I should probably NOT have put the word NOT in all caps. That's maybe what did that. I was just trying to make the point I'm not trying to make a Khorn out of a KLF 30. So really, all is totally good, and I thank you for how much time you invested in trying to save me from myself!

MorayJames. This is NOT an attempt to go, as you put it, head to head with Klipschorns. Good grief. I have much more experience than that. I joined this forum in 2002 under another handle, my name, and have done tremendous amounts of work and experimentation with three pair of La Scalas, four pair of Heresys, Klipschorns, and so forth - with a great number of amplifiers, some as high as 150 watts a side, and others as low as the one watt OTL that was stunningly good with the Heresies With which I first used them. It's my understanding that the KLFs are a nominal 8 ohm load, for which I am able to rewire some of the secondary windings on the output transformers of my amplifiers. I also own a Parasound Halo A 23. Which is certainly more than up to the task of driving a pair of KLF 20s or 30s. To uncomfortably loud levels - at least for me. Are you familiar with the impedance curve of the KLFs? It seems that you are, so may I Pleaese ask you what about it would have such a deleterious effect on its performance when connected to an amp that's good for over a hundred watts per channel into 8 ohms? I have no doubt whatsoever that my 300B amplifier would also be an outstanding match for them.

Teaman:. Thanks. You have this exactly right.

I gave them away to a guy in California who drove all the way here to pick them up. That's what happened to them. If I missed something you sent me, then sincerest apologies. It would not have been my intention in the least to have just bypassed you. I was in no position to pack and ship at the time, and even told the guy from California I wasn't going to do that. He said he was a chiropractor who well understood ailments of the spine, and told me not to worry, and that he would drive to pick them up. We met, had a coffee, and that was it. Is your PM working? This isn't really related to the subject at hand. In any event, I extend a public apology. I hope you can accept that. Morayjames:. I have much experience with all electrically related aspects of your email, particulalrly power transfer function as it relates to voice coil empedeance. I would not be considering this if I weren't aware those things. I do thank you for mentioning them though.

"Designer" La Scalas: Yeah, I asked the same question a long time ago when I first saw them. They're really just the LSs with 1/4 round trim around tweeter and squawker section, and a grille frame with Klipsch logo very similar to those used on Heresies. There was another similar pair here in Garage Sale of the same type but different grille cloth. Pictures: Definitely. I had meant to post this earlier in the day, and didn't get to it until late last night. I still have some other things I need to do today before I can get to that. Price: $1,500 (Firm) Regret: I really do appreciate you mentioning that WillyBob. Another forum member said the same. And I know there is that possibility. These are my third pair, after selling our Klipschorns (I MISS those very much, but just don't have the right space for them). My reason for thinking of selling: I have a couple of other pair of full-range single driver horn systems that I like equally well, and want to use them in the same rooms where we have the La Scalas. The amps I've built are mostly low output power single-ended-triodes, and I couple of OTL amps from Transcendent Sound. I know that LS 20s/30s generally have an emphasized midrange and HF response, which is how I also prefer the LSs. I've built a number of crossovers that have a very subtle attenuation of the midrange horn, do NOT use an auto-former or fixed or variable attenuation, and true band-pass network, 6dB/octave slope with my own hand-wound chokes. I am interested in great LF response that is provided by the L/R stereo speaker pair rather than our single subwoofer. Yes, I've considered stereo subs, but just don't have the space. The KLFs will be able to give both high input sensitivity and high efficiency, though they will be down a few dBs from the La Scalas (which, as you know, can fill an auditorium, without distortion, fairly easily). The beautiful La Scalas probably laugh at the tiny diet they are fed from our amps Besides, the KLFs, with an efficiency of 100dBs, are still extraordinarily high, and possess both the forward midrange that I need AND the low frequency response I want for classical music (organ pedals, double bass,), as well as of course very low notes present in other genres as well. I have an Al Dimeloa album that has tremendously low frequency info., particularly on a piece called "Sanctuary" that, while the La Scalas are amazingly flawless above 60 Hz or so (as an approximate). What I will miss is the architectural and sculptural-industrial design aesthetics (sorry, I'm an art and art history teacher.....or rather was for 30 years. Not teaching now do to severe back problems and, ugh, getting ready for a 6th surgery). I first saw them in the band room of a high school I taught at a long time ago. It was really a love at first site sort of thing, and I knew I would have to have a pair. And, quite honestly, the style I want and will be watching for as I put away my pennies, are either the ones with just a motor board and open back (the name of that style escapes me now), or the first ones I saw, which are generally the most common, and don't have a grille or frame around the exposed mid and HF horns. In other words, this is not for good. We are always able to make changes, which is my consolation. I know I will miss them at times. Of course there is no way I will ship them, but will drive to meet someone within a couple hundred miles or so. Even that's too far for my tired back. Those of you with painful spines understand. So! Pictures to come in the near future edit: I'm in Tucson

After much reading and research on the KLF 20 and 30 series, I am seriously considering selling my La Scalas, or, ideally, as part of a possible trade for either of the Klipsch Legend speakers mentioned. I am in southern AZ, and wanted to post this message with the thought, however remote (or maybe not so remote), that there might be an owner of KLF 20s or 30s who is possibly pondering moving to La Scalas. Mine are Designer LSBR, unstained with clear finish. They are very clean, and 100% original. Type AA networks. So, if there are any AZ Klipsch Legend owners out there who might be interested , please let me know!

Hey! The 300B is definitely one of my favorites, along with, of course, the dear old 2a3! Really, I built a (partly) direct-coupled 300B with 6sn7 input/driver (that was the d-c'd portion) that I LOVE. It DOES NOT have the usual association attributed to 300Bs, such as overly euphonic, rolled off at frequency extremes, etc., etc.

Very nice looking amp! The layout reminds a bit of the Dyna 70. Not to get political or take sides or any such ridiculousness - the humble 6bq5 is one of my favorite output valves - single ended or pp.. Good deal! Enjoy! btw, Joe, I think it was you who had those pm4a driver in Garage sale, wasn't it? I looked very closely at those!

What a great piece of writing. Absolutely, and thank you for the link - I've got to check it out! I remember when we were all (on this forum) talking about this bunches of years ago, and I was trying very hard to make the point that an expensive part or brand of part is NOT going to make an already compromised design better. In fact, it (the part or parts) might even make it worse. Thanks for the picture of the beautiful guitar.

Hi Frozmeister, Very good! We have a Decware Mini-Torii, and can say that the synergy between amp and speakers, which at that time were a pair of Heresies, was really ideal. Tremendously musical and crystal clear without any harshness to speak of. The Mini-Torii has a number of not only neat but useful features, among them being a dedicated line output (RCA Jack) taken off the output transformer to power, for example a subwoofer amp. It's totally and completely dual mono, with separate power supplies and volume control for each channel. As good as it was, I recently made a significant modification which I'm not going to call better, as much as different. Modifications are simply NOT always an improvement to a carefully worked out design. I think your Cornwalls and really any amplifier from Decware would be an incredible match. Decware is among the few American audio companies that still build in their home country, and although this may add somewhat to the cost, they are not at all unreasonable. Workmanship on their stuff is top tier; and, as you found out talking with Steve D., customer service is exemplary. He is a nice guy, whom my wife has also spoken to and liked his manner and helpfulness very much. There definitely somewhat pushy and self-important sellers out there, but Decware has no interest in that sort of thing. What's also really cool, is that you can choose certain elements of the finished amp according to your own choice. There is also often an interest in coupling capacitor changes, and they offer that as well -- but choosing a capacitor is a purely subjective thing in terms of what they may or may not do to the sound. I often use them as a mild form of EQ, as it were, in order to add a little brightness (or to reduce too much). The power range you are looking at will be perfect for the Cornwalls, or really most Heritage speakers. I've also used the Mini-Torii with our La Scalas, and their is just nothing negative about that pairing to speak of. It's a kind of amp where one can forget about listening to caps, resistors, and output transformers and just get into your music. Good luck, have fun!

Miss our K-horns often.

And I didn't take it that way. I was just playing along...... You are right, I'm sure I would regret it. Other forum members have pm'd the same sentiment. As has my wife when I started talking about. One of the reason I got La Scalas in the first place was 1) I love the fact that they are fully horn-loaded and look amazing, and 2) that I wanted was a very high efficiency speaker that had more bass than my back-loaded Lowther horns. But I just need more bass now than I used to. Much of the classical music I listen to has very low, low bass, such as organ music and works employed and under-pinned by very deep string bass. I want a speaker with the astonishing imaging ability of La Scalas and Klipschorns, but with the ability to play all the notes that are in the music, including those way down in the basement that, for some reason, used to matter less to me than they do now.

Lefteyeshooter - I imagine this observation may in part be due to what you mentioned above about your lack of experience in building such components as amplifiers, preamps, and so forth. I'm an art teacher by profession, yet the things I have built are, in an aesthetic sense, very simple and basic. I learned to solder as I child, watching my father build transmitting and receiving radio epuipment -- almost invariably using inexpensive aluminum boxes. That is in fact my own visual preference as far as amplification equipment for music reproduction which, historically, stemmed from radio electronics, particularly after the 2nd world war. Many of the circuits used in today's tube amps were derived and influenced from those early circuits. There are even a few members of this forum, myself included, who built and use a line stage preamplifier (valve) known as the Grounded Grid, by an American company that specializes in designing output-transformer-less tube amps as kits. I have built and repaired quite a few of them for others, and also own my own. The company is Transcendent Sound; perhaps you know of it. EDIT: I didn't finish my thought. The Grounded Grid circuit was used in radio long before audio and music reproduction for its very high speed. When my wife asks me why I don't build something that doesn't look like it's used to bring Frankenstein's monster to life. LOL! And it's true I suppose. But here is what I would like to share with you about the visual design aspects of some DIYers: Because of the fact that they are most often building for themselves (though in some cases have small businesses and sell their products) there is sincere and highly-valued interest in making amplifiers and other components that not only sound good, but can have astonishingly sophisticated design elements that are not only the equal of the big companies, but very often most definitely superior to them. There are builders who are both technician and artist-sculptor in equal measure, and their workmanship is absolutely worthy of gallery or modern art museum. There was one point in my life, maybe fifteen years or so ago, where I had the idea to start just such a small business. The idea I had, which I got from taking my college students to scrap metal yards to find materials for sculpture, was to find old, even somewhat rusty and or dented enclosures and containers of different kinds in order to turn them into tube amplifiers. Once cleaned and machines for hardware, tube sockets, input and output jacks, etc., etc., I was going to finish them with clear automotive lacquer in order to preserve their rustic looks under a glossy protective top coat. I think my idea was more to prove the point that what the component looks has essentially zero to do with how it sounds. Cosmetics are important to me in the sense that I am obsessive about good workmanship and quality soldering and wire dressing etc., but have never been impressed with the inclusion of things like soft blue LEDs built into components strictly for visual effect. The glow of tube filaments is quite satisfactory in that respect.

Thanks for your input Kevin. That's kind of the point though. Two way speakers may have some advantages over 3-way designs, which I guess is why some convert the LS to 2-way, wider band mid and HF horn on top of the bass bin. Isn't that what the Jub-Scala is? Really, I'm not sure, but I don't think it uses a tweeter. But! To heck with what I like! I'll stick with the LS since you like 3-ways more. Of course your point about comparing the two is absolutely right on. I hear RF7s only once right after they were first introduced, but I have absolutely no memory of what they sounded like. I'm sure there are comparisons between the two here; I should have a look.

Ski Bum, LOL! I appreciate that. Time has gone by just too fast.... I should say that my last project was definitely a more common topology with heavy output iron - or more accurately, heavier OPTS. My wife bought me a Decware Mini Torii as a gift awhile back, and I adore that amp, and really like Decware stuff in general. It's just cool that there are still people in this country selling well-built tube amps, even though, as stated above, it does add to the cost. Hey, these guys and gals have to make a living! And some of them are insanely priced, for sure, and definitely aimed at wallets more well-stuffed than mine. Same goes with loudspeakers, but there are some very, very good speakers out there at more down-to-earth admission fees. My Mini Torii: I was looking at it one day while listening to music, and suddenly got up, shut it off, and started taking it apart. Into my parts bin went its old output transformers, and in their place I installed much larger OPTs with UL. (ultra-linear) taps for the output stage. I also got rid of the output stage regulator tubes (which were actually used mainly for additional power supply rejection), and I used those spots for great filter capacitance. Also removed the feedback loop, and.....wow, this already amazing little amplifier became something much different. Difference is not always better, but in this case it most definitely was. It was the 'veil taken off the speakers' sort of thing. I'm also going to use the 5687 small signal tube, which, ever since I built Dr. Lessard's amazing Parallel-Feed Horus amplifiers, has become a real favorite of mine. And now I'm pondering selling my La Scalas and looking for a pair of first generation pair of RF-7s. I've read that changes to the mid and high frequency horn has dampened and smoothed out things a bit, and that's something, because of my own listening priorities, I would rather avoid (though I'm sure the RF II and III are both still very good speakers).

SkiBum, Good. Based on that, here's an idea: Don't buy one. I know experienced audiophiles (as opposed to what? an inexperienced one?) who stay away from ALL horn speakers, based on the presumption that they are all hopelessly colored, inaccurate, and, using your chosen descriptor, "a shockingly poor value proposition." Go figure, right? There's just no accounting for personal taste......

To our OP - Thank you for your post. These virtual pages are definitely more accustomed to much more conventional tube amplifier designs -- that historically have been actually much easier and more straightforward to build. This D. Berning amp is NOT merely 'run of the mill.' Good eye!

Lastly here, I had a chance to purchase the very component under scrutiny here. I had other financial obligations at the time, but, at the asking price, I kick myself now for not buying it.

And now, after completing my response above to Ski Bum, I see further posts still jabbing at that about which even a small amount of knowledge does not seem to exist -- much less an open-minded attitude toward something that both looks and IS extremely and intelligently different from what is familiar. Too bad. Education is powerful. If someone is going to criticize over superficial elements, go learn something about what it is that's being criticized, and then come back and speak knowledgeably about specific aspects of the component in terms of how it does what it does to a music signal as it passes from input to output. Then, after a reasonable amount of time listening to it in one's own system, come back and discuss its efficacy as a music reproducing machine. Anything else amounts to essentially zero, null set, nothing.

Ski Bum, Sure, here's a start: "...shockingly poor value proposition." reflects the need for much further education and investigation into the work of David Berning. If one doesn't have much knowledge of David Berning, whose work I've followed for many years, it would be a great benefit to such a person's knowledge of audio design to do some homework. Ignorance is NOT always a term of derision; it can also be a term used to describe the state of 'innocent not-knowing' (my definition). I would say many who frequent this site are far more used to vacuum tube amps with chassis that sport heavy black (or other color of choice -- which in truth is purely cosmetic -- nothing wrong with that) output and power transformers, and so forth, all of which are often, at least from what I've seen, equated with 'better performance.' That may be true in some cases, but even the name of the component in question, 'MicroZOTL' has something to do with it's manner of operation. Again, if on the surface one doesn't see said big transformers (of which I have used a great many myself), one may be inclined, if one didn't know better, to conclude that such an amp is 'wanting' and sorely over-priced. Discussion here for the past twenty or so years have often evangelized the benefits of bigger transformers and very costly capacitors, but unfortunately sometimes in the absence or knowledge of designers for whom neither output transformers nor interstage coupling capacitors (regardless of brand, type, or cost) are good things. In other words, for some, there is no better output transformer than NO transformer, and there is no better coupling capacitor than NO capacitor. Moreover, there are designers out there smart enough to achieve either of those characteristics, and design tube amps that remain functionally stable and sonically excellent or better than more conventional designs that require their use in order to prevent catastrophic failure and damage. OTLs have been inherently difficult to design, although some companies such as Transcendent Sound, Atma-Sphere, Tenor Audio, and.................The David Berning Company, have all designed highly successful and arguably VERY competent designs. So, in order to gain a better understanding in order to prevent not only unfair but wholly inaccurate prejudgement based on the completely superficial aspect of outward appearance, it would be worthwhile to gain a more thorough understanding about what and how a vacuum tube OTL amplifier is and works. And there are probably some Klipsch and tube amp fans in this community who, to no fault of their own, may not happen to know what the acronym 'OTL' in OTL amplifier refers to. I've been associated with this forum since 2002, and watched other misrepresented portrayals of other noteworthy components that were based, in a rather elementary fashion, on the brand or type of capacitors used, the size of the power and output transformers (including parallel or 'shunt feed' output stages -- terms worthy of yet additional homework and study), and so on. Ultimately, the one who loses out in the end is the one who paints the negative portrait with very little (or ANY) understanding of how that particular component was designed or sounds. And, even more unfortunately, things like this happen in circumstances far more serious, tragic, and grave than our shared little hobby. I'll get you started: http://davidberning.com erik m.

Build quality, lead dressing and grounding layout, quality soldering, and absolutely artisan workmanship and metal smithing are hallmarks of Will's products. He is an absolutely uncompromising craftsman, and there are no Dynaco restorations that I know (and I am familiar with many) that compare to his, particularly in terms of faceplate concepts and other visual elements. Moreover, he doesn't simply paint his chassis, faceplates, power and output transformer end bells. They are powder-coated and much, much more scratch and gouge resistant than a simple rattle can job (though I can't deny one can get very good finishing cosmetics from spray paint). Just not nearly so durable as powder coating. I've worked on the ST70 as well, and can say that the original design is still very competent. I rebuilt one for my dad, along with a pair of Heresy IIs, and the sound he gets from that system is outstanding. Will is one of the good guys, and has been around this stuff a very long time. He is the most meticulous tube amp builder I know of.