RoboKlipsch
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Posts posted by RoboKlipsch
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9 hours ago, SWL said:
Rob, you should stop by again if your in the area. After sealing-bracing the cabs and the new Ciare woofers it's a huge improvement since you were here last. Two years ago?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Thanks for the invite Id love to stop by in Summer...super busy for now. Must be amazing if they sound even better sealed up
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I have heard SWLs modified KLFs and have never heard a better Klipsch speaker. 💪
the cf4 design places the tweeter lower and imo is better suited for a baffle wall.
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1 hour ago, Zen Traveler said:
Great write-up and couldn't agree more. I rarely play a cd and my Music collection is Multichannel.
Oh, yeah, the setup listed in my sig is pretty good for movies too.
Your system is honestly a connosieurs dream in Klipsch. Am I reading correctly that you have 2 pair of unicorns for surrounds? 👍
Thank you for the kind words
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4 hours ago, vasubandu said:
Just out of curiosity, why do people rely on a microphone and an algorithm instead of their own reactions? I am looking for my microphone and wondering why.
when a pro installer sets up a theater they rely on measurements and best practices
why rely on what u think is good when u may find out a properly calibrated setup may be far superior?
our ears get used to almost anything. it takes a few weeks to adjust to something new imo
if you have never measured a room...not speaker levels but the full frequency response and decay, you have hardly scratched the surface
to compare its like saying why go to a high end restaurant when you are already a good cook?
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10 hours ago, Islander said:
The method I use to balance my speakers is as simple as possible. The front left and right are most important to me, so I start with them. I, too, use a Radio Shack meter. Since the speakers are being set to match, the actual volume setting is not that important. My place is pretty quiet, so I usually use 65 dB when balancing them. This is with the test tone produced by the AVR. Louder than that means the occasional blast, and it's not any more effective. I set the front left and right at 65 dB, then go right around the other four speakers (front centre, rear centre, surround left and right. It's a 6.1 system.) setting them at 65 dB as well. As another member mentioned, it can be helpful to raise the volume of the front centre speaker by 1-2 dB to make the dialogue easier to hear.
To set up the sub, I use a test disc that goes from 200 Hz down to 5 Hz. I try for a smooth response in the range from 25 Hz. (the lowest my sub will do) to 200 Hz. with dips and peaks minimized as much as possible. This can take a dozen runs or more, taking notes each time. That was when I was using a separate equalizer for the subwoofer. Now, the AVR can show the profile and allow some tweaking of the sub's frequency response through its range.
Once that's all done, the volume balance should be good for effective surround sound. A bit of tweaking may be needed, maybe raising or lowering the volume of the surround speakers a bit, but it gets you started.
The AVR I use, a Yamaha RX-A2060, can do this automatically with its own microphone, but I'm not always satisfied with what it comes up with. However, it can be used to set the time balance of each speaker, so each has the correct delay according to its distance from the listening position. Once that's done, then the volume of each speaker can be set.
I should have mentioned that first, but that shows that it pays to read to the end of the post. The AVR can do its settings, then switch to Manual and balance the speaker volumes to my taste.
I'm not clear on the 0 reference level idea. Usual listening level settings for me are -32 to -50, except when listening to vinyl, which calls for volume settings in the -12 to -18 range, due to the lower output of the turntable's cartridge. Max volume I listen at is in the 90-100 dB range, and 70-80 dB is more typical. I've never turned my system up to 0 dB, because that would be at the severe pain level, probably over 120 dB. That's what happens when using auditorium gear in a living room. The front speakers are fed by a pair of 1000 watt amps, one for bass and one for treble, connected directly to each driver, since the crossovers are disconnected and replaced by the Dx-38 processor that does all the EQ before the signal gets to the amps.
Reference refers to calibrating a system to THX's industry standard for MOVIE recording and playback.
If a system is calibrated to this standard then the volume of 0 is reference, meaning a maximum peak output of 105db from main channels and 115db from the lfe track. Again that is peak.
The movies are recorded, and then played back in theaters so that 85db is the average ouput. That leaves 20db of dynamic range for dramatic effect, i.e. gunshots, crashes, screaming, or anything the audio engineers want that loud. The lfe track is again referenced to 95db and then peaks at 115db, 10db higher because engineers have proved low frequencies (under 120hz but more specifically under 40hz) is "heard" by ours ears similarly to 10db less at higher frequencies....they are making it sound balanced.
Because home settings have walls that reflect sound and are close together the test tones a system uses to calibrate are 75db instead of 85db. But even with this, the calibration is still set to 85db, it just is easier to deal with at 75db for setup than 85db.
Now until recently with the advent of 5 channel and 7 channel recorded and remastered music, music has NEVER had a standard for recording and playback levels. One recording is completely different than another and especially as you go further back in time, few systems even had the ability to play at reference levels and many recordings were done to sound good in the average listeners setup or even in a car, which is how the engineer would try to make it sound good for most people. That is why when listening to different music recordings you may sometimes choose to turn up or down the bass...it is because every music recording can be different based upon the engineers choices.
Reference for some cant be achieved with their speakers and avr....i.e. dome tweeters and a low watt avr. Klipsch are so sensitive, most in the 90s some even in the 100s that reaching reference levels is easy even with a low power avr.
Most people dont listen to music at 100db levels for long, and also few watch every movie at reference. Its too loud for most peoples ears and further, in a room that is not well treated and large like a theater, there are resonances and huge peaks and dips in the frequency response that can make a reference peak of say 105db actually as much as 120db or more at the resonant frequencies.
Many music listeners get used to these resonances and learn to like how the bass punches so hard and thats why....their room has particular characteristics they like. Likewise movie fans that for the first time calibrate their theaters and use a tool like Audyssey that smooths out the frequency response and sets the range to sound flat...freak out because they think all their bass is gone.
Commercial theaters are quite large where all the walls are far from the listener, the walls and ceiling are treated, and the playback is calibrated to have a very good response without resonances in most seats. That is why most people can handle a movie in a theater being so loud. Home theaters are usually in a living without those characteristics and so there are many harsh peaks in the playback that make reference unbearable. Even in a well treated room few people want to watch everything at reference, its justs too loud and stressful.
A good Klipsch system like yours can play way beyond reference. If calibrated that would mean the volume goes over 0db to say +10 or +20. The fact that it can has no bearing on whether it should.
Before THX and really before the commercial release of the first Star Wars, few movies were recorded with a standard and fewer had sound engineers that were given material and told to truly wow audiences with the audio. That is why so many movies from before 1980 and really even 1990 have soundtracks that are not impressive.
Lucas and his young sound engineer for Star Wars, just out of audio school, literally changed the world of movies and audio playback. Lucas' Skywalker Ranch is even today considered the very best place to record movie audio.
Music engineers around the world have built their own state of the art studios to improve the recordings of music today.
We have been fortunate to live through the birth of high fidelity audio 👌
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My basic education in panels came from avsforum which has a 400 page thread with full time experts in theater installation providing a lot insight and advice for dedicated theater builds. Combined with measurements of my own it became clear theres no magic sauce, just materials and placement. With that said a pro like Erskine does spec for his clients a certain brand he prefers but even those still have a core of the same basic materials.
Im passionate about treatment because when used, honestly even poorly, it makes the most dramatic improvement to a a room that any component can provide.
Since they last a long time i see no issue buying from a reputable company vs building diy. For me on a limited budget i found i could build 3x or 4x the number of panels myself as i would have bought from a vendor and once i started using them I quickly realized i wanted a lot ☺
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you will notice basically no absorption at 125hz until a 1.5 or 2" panel is used
sure they "microperf" them and have nice finishes but the numbers dont lie
a $10 2inch roxul board has better numbers than any of those
there are so many companies trying to market a basic technology as space age amazing
read the .pdf file and lo and behold the core is glass wool
the same thing owens corning 703 is....hmmmmm
same "technology" as every acoustic panel....same substance and equivalent to rockwool
just my strong 2c
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at 3" roxul 60 is .78 at 125
at 4" it hits even higher
i made my entire theater out of 2 for front wall and sides and 4" traps in corners, at bottom of front wall and ceiling
even 2" makes a big difference but what i could measure showed plenty of top end decay reduction
the key is lots of 4" panels. hard to overabsorb down low BUT somewhat easy to overabsorb the top
thus using 1" or 2" panels only to treat can cause issues...the bass lingers and the high end is dead
but if you trap enough bass its a flipping miracle😁
you can listen loud without fear of weird sounds resonating or ringing
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find me numbers surpassing roxul 60...tested numbers then we compare. u are getting sucked into marketing.
theres a cost value to it
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
is a handy reference but heres the cheapest best source imo
https://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Selecting-the-Right-Acoustic-Material--ac.html
look at the ratios and costs
nothing comes close at a dollar a foot
theres no magic...its science and theres nothing 1" thick that absorbs low well
even 2" is just decent, thus why 4" is considered the minimum for broadband
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Vanu dont get taken by marketing b.s.
There are two separate concepts. Soundproofing and sound absorption.
Gik is one of the best and most economical companies and sells the right products.
I mentioned earlier that roxul 60 is the best sound absorption product. There are other products that in some cases do better at certain frequencies but i stand by my statement as 100% correct.
Now a company like gik not only knows this but also knows that when too much high end absorption occurs they add scatter plates. And they sell tuned membrane traps for very low frequencies.
There is no magic here. 703 owens corning is popular but not as good as roxul 60. Ive never heard of any setup with too many bass traps. That is the issue imo. I have i think 13 in my main theater and another 20 or so absorption panels. Placed properly its the real magic. Consistent fast decay = an amazing room imo.
Foam and fancy panels do something but cannot overcome the science. You can build panels and traps for 20 to 40 each that match a pro version. You cannot buy a panel, anywhere that absorbs 20hz completely or close. It would be several feet thcik to accomplish something close.
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Adding to cecs comment, theres nothing wrong at with rechecking the spl that autocal sets.
In fact, unless everyone has a perfect room, theres potentially some benefit to tweaking them based upon what you hear.
For example, most rooms arent treated with sound panels. So even though the center channel maybe calibrated perfectly, in any given room turning up the center between 1 and 2 even 3db may help. if surrounds arent perfectly placed i.e. maybe they are high up on the wall, or not in the ideal position angle to where you sit, turning them up or down a few db may create some real magic. Personal taste also comes into play, where many people yurn up subs anywhere from 1 to 12db over reference.
How does someone "know" this? Mostly just trying it. Dont be shy to make your system sound the way you think is best. You can always revert to the original settings.
Nothing is really wrong in this regard. I would only caution not to tweak up or down any channel a lot at once. Change it 1 maybe 2db max and listen for a while. if a center or surrounds are too loud, you may not get the proper sweep effect when sound moves between channels. turning subs up....very popular....can muddy the midbass or mask the midbass at the frequencies above where the sub crosses.
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4 flat pack ultimax 18s with a couple inuke 6000dsps
you can sell the 4 rsws and still have money left over
u can build them w the kids, paint duratex...done in a weekend
4 positioned like yours are now will fit the same space (i had an rsw15 and know the size)
they are tested and proven to have max output without room gain...4 would be roughly (@2m)
137db at 40hz
120db at 20hz
102db at 10hz
w room gain i would guess you could eq the system to a flat response of 115-120db down to 7hz
sealed alignment would have even more punch and clarity than the rsws with much more extension
no missing lfe content w those and terrific still for music
in your market u can likely find 4 used for 300 each or buy new delivered unassembled 450 each
dont want to build?
diysoundgroup just released assembled subs including ported options that come with speakerpower amps
consider 2 si24s sealed they would beat anything on the market
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2 hours ago, vasubandu said:
@RoboKlipsch you say a lot of really interesting things in your post.
As for wine I find that when I get above $25 a bottle, my ability to tell a difference really diminishes. But I have had a few wines in a wide price range that blew me away. I have a crazy client who insisted that we celebrate a victory by opening a special bottle of wine. So I went to the wine store that did her storage for a tasting. I was a 1946 burgundy from a special vintage, and the bottle was worth $10,000. I suggested that we sell it and buy 500 $20 bottle of wine, and she said that this was very special. I don't really like burgundy to begin with, but it really wasn't all that special. Not something that I would pay $50 for. However, they also pulled a great vintage Turley Petite Sirah that was one of the best wines I have ever had. It was like $100 or $150. In sound, I am after the $50 bottle stuff or maybe a little better.
I like the advice about giving it a week. I have been working on give it 15 minutes, and I see the wisdom of what you say.
Your comment about the room really interests me. This is a decent sized room, and it has linoleum floors and bare walls when we started. When you made noise, it reverberated. Very obnoxious. When we remodeled, we put in bamboo floors and grasscloth wallpaper. The wallpaper is a square basket weave of actual grass, so it has a highly irregular surface made of grass. It looks like this.
When we installed, it the reverberation went away entirely. and the room is sonically dead. I don't know if you have ever tried it, but it had a big effect for us. I don't know if I should do more or not. I am working with a company that makes nice looking panels that they claim are nearly anechoic. But that is for a speaker idea, not my walls. I have not paid close attention to placement but will now.
i have no doubt your ears are not lying...it may sound much better. you get some good diffusion too with that pattern
with that said the hardest part of taming a room is the low end...nothing can dampen the low end that is under 2" thick, and really 4" is where it becomes what is known as broadband...covering most of the spectrum. u may have more than enough high end dampening which is a great start. the key from there is bass traps...really broadband absorption. 4" thick roxul 60 wrapped in fabric, placed ideally in corners but anywhere a wall meets another wall or floor. what treatment is doing is reducing the decay times. it may sound crazy to "reduce bass" but really it is reducing how long it plays, sometimes called ringing.
to see it visually requires a $90 umik, free REW software and lots of time to measure.
i saw the new star wars last week in a great theater. my basement theater is imo no doubt superior!
theaters roll off at 25hz and i could tell. theaters are well treated but you can match it at home inexpensively with some diy effort.
my living room theater has several 6" traps but no treatment at first reflection points. its night and day and not nearly as good as a theater, but sounds great with music.
i never got into wine, but the older i get the more i appreciate it over beer with meals
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3 hours ago, JJkizak said:
Doesn't the SPL you listen at affect the calibration?
JJK
only as far as dynamic eq is involved
std audyssey has constant levels from no spl to reference...all settings and eq stay constant
dynamic eq boosts bass and surrounds in an effort to have it sound like reference to our ears at lower volume
with that said some do complain the surrounds are boosted a bit too much w deq
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3 hours ago, dtel said:
Kind of sounds like the old "loudness" switch, this does help for low volumes. But may not be safe with high volumes, need to remember to turn it off.
its brillant engineering actually
if you have seen the curve how our ears hear low frequency with much less sensitvity it follows it exactly
at low volume bass is boosted a lot to compensate for the curve and as it approaches reference it adds less and less until it adds none at reference
same for surrounds. at -30 the surrounds are normally so quiet you miss the sound from those channels...the surround spl levels are usually lower than the mains so it compensates and reduces the boost as it approaches reference
audyssey works great imo but requires still that the speaker positions and that good test positions are used when calibrating
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i find dynamic eq to be the best feature of audyssey
at lower volumes it boosts the bass and surrounds along a curve to match your hearing
dynamic volume heck no may as well listen to tv sound lol
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The bigger picture i see here for you V is that you quite simply have the fever. Everybody gets it at times especially early on when discovering there is a whole hidden world of audio quality (and quantity) to be explored. For some reason I let my bose system hang around way too long and once i got the fever, like many before me, i went through several iterations of different speakers.
I would liken speakers to your wine analogy, or beer. There is unquestionably garbage, even though some will drink it or like it for various reasons. There are average ones then higher end ones. Then as you say, there is an elite level where in my view, it gets dangerous to go because it gets very expensive but worse....it spoils people where "very good" is no longer good enough. Like you I think theres a limit past where it becomes detrimental to go....people get spoiled. Your elite wine drinking friends wont much enjoy a good wine as they know too much and take it too seriously.
My best piece of advice is to give any system and setup several weeks so YOU can adjust. Our ears get very used to anything and it takes time to unwind and truly hear what you have. at least a few weeks.
My 2nd best piece of advice is to step back and see the larger picture. Speakers and avrs, outside in open space can be readily compared. But we dont do that, they are in our living rooms or theaters, or basements. Systems are limited by the weakest link and in audio it is inevitably the room. As an example, a certain wallpaper may be able to reduce some high end sound but trust me as someone who has investigated and then built dozens of room treatments....broadband absorbers, acoustic panels and diffusers, I can say from experience:
> Nothing limits an audio system more than the room itself. I can make garbage speakers sound better than fortes and rf7s if the room i use is treated vs those higher end speakers playing in a concrete basement.
> Placing and measuring placement of ALL speakers, especially subs and mains, is more important than the quality of the speakers themselves.
> THEN the speakers themselves come into play. I see many if not most people limit their room treatment and placement and focus instead on speakers. If nothing more can be done to those things then yes, speakers are then the only factor to modify to improve the experience.
Food for thought.
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I agree most with YKs sentiments.
I grew up in the 70s through 90s and feel lucky I did. I was born just early enough to be able to go see the greatest rock bands on earth....in some cases at the tail end of their careers and in the case of the titans like Jimi and the Doors of course I never got to see them.
But I did get to grow up hearing the transition from the 50s through 70s birth of rock....and then experience the transition to 80s and 90s hair bands. Im not knocking jazz blues classic country or anything else. I went to Opera, Musicals, and other live performances.
i also grew up where...on the weekends on ghe radio, an amazing techno jam, what became club music started. It was cool and different. And then Rap was born....it started early with James Brown but really became popular with the hits from the Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC and then blew up with NWA and 2 Live Crew. I was in Gainesville when they were arrested for their music.
But then something else happened. First, I got "old", which I think is part of what really happened to us all. But the evolution has gone to EDM and bandless megastars....megarich DJs who remixed things and on rare occasion have an innovative sound.
Thr cult of personality took over.
Kids today go to a show and get excited at records being spun, the party is the experience, the music is not. Feed them sand they dont know better. I watch halftime shows there are no bands and the singer is lip synching and doesnt even pretend to be live....he or she simply knows they are "it". Sure there is some major talent and bands today but for the most part kids dont know better.
Who would sit around doing critical listening to edm or rap? its clever and at times impressive but you never say:
> thats the best voice ive ever heard
> that sound is something never done before
> together they may be the best group of talent ever assembled
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9 hours ago, Tricky115 said:
Hello!
I just moved into a new place and I'm finally setting up my home theater again. My old subwoofer died in the move (It was almost 5 years old), so I picked up a new Klipsch Sub-12HG to match my Quintet. I have everything running through a Harmon Kardon AVR 1700. Everything sounds pretty good after running the Harmon's auto adjust setup, but I have no idea what my settings my subwoofer should be set to. I'd appreciate any help I have no idea what these buttons/switches do.
Thanks!
plug the rca cable into the left input labeled left/lfe
turn the crossover knob all the way to the highest hz, so the avr handles the crossover setting
gain needs to be set either by letting the avr do it or if it doesnt have autosetup, it should be done by ear
try a good movie with strong bass effects and adjust it until they arent bloated and arent weak
if you have weak bass no matter what move the sub towards a corner or wall and redo the gain
if the bass is bloated no matter what move it away from the corner or walls and redo the gain
a youtube test tone from 20 to 200 should help you pick a crossover
if there is a quiet gap, turn the crossover up in the avr until the test tone is as smooth and consistent as possible
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6 hours ago, dimanata2007 said:
Do you think the R-14M would perform good enough as height speakers? I'm looking to add 2 down firing Atmos speakers and size and budget wise the R-14M look like a good choice. I'm planning to put them above my fronts and angle them down toward the MLP.
I use a pair of r15ms as back surrounds and they do fine. Honestly if you already havd them use them, but if not I would look to get a used pair of rb41s as they are cheap, match your other speakers and are higher quality. i say this as someone who owns both the r15ms and rb51s. for height they should be fine. i often see pairs of used rp140s cheap used too, another good option.
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10 hours ago, Johnmiller2020 said:
I would love to hear why you switched. I guess RP’s are a class above the R’s could be the reason but would like to know more. I’d like to hear your thoughts on advantages of floorstanding speakers as well. If there are clear advantages over bookshelf’s even at 80/100 Hz XO and not utilizing the full range I’ll feel better about my purchase at least 🙂
Floorstanding speakers are coupled to the floor and therefore dont have floor bounce interference which can create distortion in the midbass. They also have in your case multiple woofers placed close together which provides excellent control of the directivity of the bass and midbass frequencies. They are also typically setup with the tweeters at ear level which is ideal.
Bookshelf speakers are much smaller and look better in many rooms where large speakers i.e. r28f are not desired. Quality is always an jssue and while the RP series is a very big step up in clarity there are RP floorstanding speakers that negate that benefit vs the bookshelves.
There are many factors in a setup including placement and room treatment which are even more important than crossover frequency. The crossover setting is used in almost every case at 60hz or higher because low frequencies are rarily replicated faithfully at the LOCATION of the L and R speaker. Properly integrated subs and mains that are put in the right room positions will almost always result in better low frequency production. Main speakers that play down low are typically only a benefit in 2 channel stereo listening wifhout subs.
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9 hours ago, dimanata2007 said:
ok, let's say I would turn off Audyssey MultEQ. Would you recommend to keep speaker levels where Audyssey set them up or not? Imo Audyssey sounds pretty good, I haven't decided yet if I like the Denon's/Audyssey sound better than the Pioneer/MCACC and prefer the easiest way to calibrate my set up. I'm ok with minor adjustments and turning On and OFF certain things, but I doubt I'll be able to calibrate the system "from the scratch" on my own.
Sorry if it's dumb question. The X2400 has Audyssey MultEQ XT and shows MulEQ XT on the screen while Audyssey set up is running, but after the calibration is completed it shows an option to turn on (or not) MultEQ and shows MultEQ(no XT part) in Audyssey set up section. Is it just a way how Denon set it up or missing "XT" part means that somehow MultEQ XT is deactivated and MultEQ is in use?
If you ran manual yes i would use the speaker level and distance settings Audyssey provides. In fact theres manual mode that does that for you and then does NOT copy the eq filters over.
I believe multieq is on or off, it simply doesnt show the xt part in the screen it may be generic.
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11 hours ago, dimanata2007 said:
It sounded like a non stop cracking noise and did'n sound like an input or channel switch clicks. According to Denon support it sounded like the microprocessor had some issues and they advised to ran a hard reset. Unfortunately the reset didn't help, so I've exchanged the unit and the new one makes no such noise, it's absolutely quiet between test tones.
Id guess then the speaker imputs on the back of thr unit were corroded. Glad u got it replaced!
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Excellent discussion and advice.
Nothing wrong with 100hz co. I tend to use it based upon measuring my systems and knowing that the fronts vs subs in that range favor the subs.
All speakers set to small always imo.
Placement of the subs determines if theres too much bass in certain frequencies known as modes. Move them out from the walls a bit if too boomy.
Floorstanding speakers have some advantages making them superior to bookshelf speakers in many cases. Yet your point is correct that you could use bookshelf speakers with a similar result.
I once had r28fs and switched to rp160ms for example. But for now theres no need for you to switch....as I said there are many advatages I wont go into unless you really want to hear it ☺.
Your thought process is logical and well considered imo.
Oh, yeah, the setup listed in my sig is pretty good for movies too.
RP-250S or RP-160M for sides and backs?
in Home Theater
Posted
i love the WDST speakers. If your side wall is 15ft or closer these are best.
if a huge room go bookshelves all around
i dont like WDST speakers as back surrounds the channel mixes perfectly as monos
if u can fit the rp160m u r in for a treat