Droogne
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Posts posted by Droogne
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On 14-11-2017 at 1:05 AM, Coytee said:
oops.... might not be cost effective...
Hey, recently discovered that shipping by sea is actually not that expensive! Might still be worth it
What is the weight / size of these puppy's?
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Haha if they're still available, would you maybe ship them? (Id pay ofcourse)
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@Chris A Have not yet mounted my heresys so if you still might have a tip on the vertical or horizontal placement I'd be glad to hear it. Dont have any time at the moment to delve deeper into to all the subjects were conversing about, but I'll get to back to all that when my exams are behind me. Just some things I'm still looking for/thinking about at the moment. Not sure if I want to buy the K-402 new (can use the money for other projects), so I'm gonna wait a few months to see if I cant find a second hand pair/single one. If not I'll still buy them brand new. If you do know someone willing to sell them, hit me up!
Need/want to know somethinh though, still not sure if I'm able to do the MEH horn adjustments, but I'd be good to know if I can, so when I come across a single horn I'm able to buy it directly without hesitating. Soooo, how hard would you think it is to pull of via internet instructions? I got some very capable people who can help me with that (who have the correct gear too). That is of course, if you'd be willing to share your exact design with me. Would be very grateful! It would not only be an awesome speaker and project, but also a very good way to a decent height center channel.
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6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Oops. I thought your were Stateside, but still worth it if you get the whole enchilada!
Well problem is that, although even with shipping the price still is within reasonable range (and it's not likely that I can find something like this in Europe), it's not such a steal anymore when considering shipping.. I'd be interested, and jump on it, if it were local and I had to pay 900 for everything (thats 150 cheaper than what I sold my fortes for :p). But I have no real urgent need for it (can use everything though, for various projects), so I dont think it's such a wise decision :s
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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
That is so not true. Commercial Khorn bass bins for $300 a pair and you can get them shipped for about $300-400 on a pallet. Still worth it.
A pair of such heavy bass bins for 300-400? To Europe?
EDIT: it seems you are correct! Might think about it!
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11 hours ago, billybob said:
Too bad @Droogne can't grab some of that JBL/Altec...
Oho, I would buy everything without thinking about it. Would cost me 10 000 for shipping though lol. The struggle
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h
As you can see, even the big towers with build in atmos module ( (RP-280FA) require you to wire the atmos module separately.
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On 13-12-2017 at 3:56 PM, JPW said:
....question for the tech gurus!
I have finally upgraded to a Denon 6300H-11.2 receiver along with the latest speakers. I'm interested in adding the RP-140SA Atmos speakers. I have not found any online recommendations for how to wire these speakers if placed on top of both the front left/right speakers (as most pictures show online). I currently have a 7.2 configuration. If placed on the front speakers, is it best to wire them to the front speakers or as a surround, or height to maximize the Atmos experience?
Thanks!!!!
JW
You need to wire them to your height terminals and tell your receiver that they are dolby modules (amp asign).
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2 hours ago, Chris A said:
I got a request to answer the following questions about setting the EQ target curve within REW:
"LF cutoff" sets the low frequency point at which the REW EQ optimizer stops trying to correct the EQ to the target curve settings. For something like a La Scala or a Belle that have relatively high LF cutoff points do to their limited bass bin lengths, I usually set the LF cutoff at 60-80 Hz. After the REW EQ optimizer runs and gives you automatic optimized PEQ settings, you can still add manual low frequency boosting PEQs manually and see their simulated effect on the resulting overall frequency response.
"LF rise" is the frequency at which any low frequency (ramping) boost or attenuation in the target EQ curve will begin. "LF end" is the lower frequency below "LF rise" at which the low frequency boost or attenuation stops in the target curve, and the curve remains flat. The "LF slope" sets the target curve LF boost or attenuation slope between the "LF Rise Start" and "LF Rise End" settings. See the following screen shot for an example:
The idea is that you have some control over the resulting shape of the low frequency target curve. I usually set the low frequency target curve to have a 1.5 to 2 dB/octave rise in response (as you decrease in frequency) below 100 Hz, and I stop the LF target curve rise at the frequency where the bass bin no longer has the capability to produce flat EQ output beyond perhaps a 3-7 dB boosting EQ below the bass bin cutoff frequency.
I set the "LF cutoff" at some very low frequency to keep the target curve relatively flat for as low a frequency as is possible. The bass bin will roll off on its own at its low frequency limit, so the usefulness of the "LF cutoff" point is usually only for perhaps ported (bass reflex) bass bins that need rapid LF cutoff below the port frequency--in order to avoid unloading the woofers at low frequencies due to a lack of damping or air springiness to restore the woofer's cone back to its neutral position.
I set the "LF rise" point to 100 Hz due to the acoustical size of my room (about 100 Hz for the so-called "Schroeder frequency", which is based on the room volume and its reverberation time--RT60). If your room has a higher Schroeder frequency, you may wish to set the "LF Rise Start" to a higher frequency. I set the "LF Rise End" to the approximate bass bin cutoff frequency.
You will find that the REW EQ optimizer doesn't really add boosting or attenuating PEQs on the ends of the frequency response (i.e., extreme highs or extreme lows), and that you'll have to add boosting or attenuating PEQs manually and see their actual effects after running another REW measurement upsweep. I find that it's actually nice to have some explicit control over the ends of the spectrum due to the more delicate nature of the problem--trying to get more out of the loudspeaker's tweeter or bass bin than you would otherwise get with a passive balancing network.
Chris
2 hours ago, Chris A said:As a separate topic from the above REW EQ target curve settings, boosting bass frequencies in home-sized rooms (i.e., "small rooms" acoustically) is one of those more mysterious discussions that usually touch on psychoacoustics of human hearing in small spaces. Note that some of the extreme LF correction is due to the nature of stereo (but not multichannel) recordings that have been largely attenuated below 60-100 Hz.
After demastering my entire CD music collection that restored the extreme low bass frequencies on my stereo music tracks, I can tell you that having a bass boost below 100 Hz also has a component of its purpose associated with the expectations of the human hearing system in acoustically small rooms. I add about 1.5 dB/octave boost below 100 Hz...down to my subwoofer cut off frequency of 17 Hz. This is something that you will need to experiment with.
Chris
Thanks! Will have to read though it a few times again, but I think I'm getting it
Will try it out later this evening. The optimisation of my sub is another thing I'm tring to figure out thats for later.
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Although I should be studying, I'll be trying out what I proposed here, tomorrow, while waiting for my LaScala bins to come. Got the UMIK today, and did a sweep and tried out what you mentioned in your PEQ guide. Good stuff! (as always). Not sure on all the parameters though. I get the cutoff, but what about the "LF cutoff", "LF rise Start & End" and the "LF Rise Slope", for the moment, I just copied you but I'm not sure what they exactly, or to be more exact, how to use those to get what I want. I played with them, and I see a difference in the target, but still not sure on what to put it.
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On 3-12-2017 at 3:45 PM, Chris A said:
I'd instead mount the elevation channels high on the front and side walls and aim them at the prime LPs to avoid this loudspeaker coverage issue.
Chris
Semi unrelated question. Would you recommend horizontal vertical placement of the heresys/K510 heresys. Or doesnt it really matter as they are just heights?
PS: I might have a line on 2 or 3 K-402s (2 without drivers)(see the garage sale section) so I might have to think about that synergy horn sooner than I thought!
How hard would it be to copy your design? (how much skill does it require etc).
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Anyone interested in buying the pair of jub bins? I'm interested in (all) the K-402 horns, but not in the bins. So would anyone be interested in splitting the jubilees?
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15 hours ago, Dandoyen said:
K402 Horn w/ K-69 Driver: $500. Used in JubScala center
Would you ship to Belgium? Very interested!
Also in your pair of K-402, but I'm guessing youre not selling those horns seperate from the bins?
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2 minutes ago, Chris A said:
The K-510 can be crossed as low as 550 Hz using steep slope filters, but below that point you need something else in a relatively small box to take you down to at least 100 Hz (with 50-70 Hz really being the target cut-off frequency).
A Heresy-like 12" woofer and closed box would do that, but this is still a somewhat large box for height channels relative to what I see from Klipsch and other loudspeaker manufacturers in the HT marketplace. It's what I'd do if I were into Atmos, etc., but the configurations that I've seen are actually mounted on the ceiling instead of high on the front on side walls. This creates a requirement that the coverage angles must be at least 90 degrees both in the vertical and horizontal directions. The K-510 is a 90x60 horn. I'd instead mount the elevation channels high on the front and side walls and aim them at the prime LPs to avoid this loudspeaker coverage issue.
Chris
Yeah I have been going through the height channel problem for a while, and decided that best option would be using regular height channels, as its still better then non-wall mounted "Atmos enabled modules". It's not officially recommended, but a lot of users agree that atmos works very good with regular channels (this way my surround is also compatible with a lot of other formats). I'm mounting the heresys with PA wall mounts (and a 35mm adapter screwed onto the Heresy) as they are good to 40kg, I'll send a pic next week when I have them up and running). Custom height channels are a future project, the k510 just looked interesting! Looks like a good match for the k402 as they are used together in the 3-way.
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On 24-11-2017 at 3:57 PM, Chris A said:
First, you would need to select height loudspeakers having the same frequency response range as your other loudspeakers, then you'd EQ their frequency response flat like your other loudspeakers using a DSP crossover or similar device upstream that does parametric equalization. I found this out using a tri-amped, time aligned, dialed-in Belle center between the Jubs--its timbre isn't the same due to the fact that its frequency response lacks the bottom octave or so of the Jub bass bins. Once the K-402-MEH hit the scene, I had essentially perfect timbre matching. The surrounds also need to be timbre matched (mine are, presently). If you use narrow coverage front loudspeakers (i.e., L, C, R) and wide coverage bipole or dipole surrounds, you will never timbre match them all in room.
PS just saw a thread about the K510, which has supposedly good polar control. It's no K402, but might work as a 2-way height channel horn (in a heresy cabin) with same driver as the K402.
PS havent heard back from my k402 dealer (about the driver chouce), but I'm no hurry so I'll give him some extra days before I ask again.
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On 1-12-2017 at 8:45 PM, billybob said:
Dang, that sounds cool! Can feel the enthusiasm all the way here. Bigger and better all the time. Good show...
13 hours ago, billybob said:Now that is a maybe on the K-402 for sure. Curiosity would better me. Have been reading the potential on thread. Would be nice to harness the
4xK55. Sounds like it would be interesting. Good morning.
Well, I already have 4x K55M, and if I buy the K402 I just need an adapter (which I have found for around 20euros) so not so expensive to just try it out !
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Just now, billybob said:
Sounds like good progress being made
Yeah it's a more expensive route, but it'll be worth it! Maybe I'll do a 4xK55 into the K-402 setup (will definitely try this out once I have all the stuff). Hope I can pull it all of before the festival (still enough time, and if not this years, definitely next one!)
PS friend of me was very excited about this project, so we might start our own mini festival just to showcase the power of the tower!
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On 24-11-2017 at 5:06 PM, billybob said:On 30-11-2017 at 12:23 AM, twistedcrankcammer said:
OK, little development! Have finally made contact with a dealer for a K-402 horn! Still having my 6x LaScala bins made so I might just do a triple LaScala tower with a Jub horn on top (+ some extra LaScala horn/drivers and tweeters to top it off).
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11 hours ago, Chris A said:
The 1133 is a midrange driver, while the 1132 is "full range" - about 500 Hz - 19 kHz.
I'll let you know if my dealer can get his hand on some other driver or buy the horn without the drivers. PS never checked it, but is there noone selling his K-402 in the US? I can get almost anything over here (Klipsch speakers etc), but the K-402 will have to be shipped in all cases (even with my dealer it has to be ordered from the US, which costs extra) so in this one case a second hand K-402 from the US would still be the best option.
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3 hours ago, Chris A said:
Yes. That's what I was referring to exclusively, above.
Oh sorry, thought you were talking about the 1132, which is used in a 2-way. The 1133 is used in a 3-way, but I was hoping it might be used in a 2-way too. Maybe I didnt understand what you meant with: "1132 with the custom phase plug design by Roy over the K-1133 midrange driver configuration".
EDIT: I found what you meant. "I cross them at 4 Khz, which is where the K-1133 driver starts to roll off" . The phase plug you mentioned is what gives the 1132 his higher extension (and sacrifices some of his low end). 1133 is more than 100eu cheaper, which is why I was asking. Will have to go with the 1132 then! Or I could go 3-way (as the 1133 would give a better midrange, no?)
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2 hours ago, Chris A said:
The Faital Pros do sound better than the K-69-As, particularly on crash and ride cymbal transients where you can hear the differences--particularly if you're young.
PS would you happen to know if the 1133 is useable in a 2-way (not at extreme dB)?
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1 hour ago, Chris A said:
The Faital Pros do sound better than the K-69-As, particularly on crash and ride cymbal transients where you can hear the differences--particularly if you're young.
My youngest is 29 right now--so "22" is certainly looking toward a lifetime of excellent sound.
You're on the right path, grasshopper...
Chris
I have went from a simple RP450C with 2 Q Acoustics 3020 (small bookshelves), a few pair of extremely cheap bookshelves (3euro/speaker) and a low budget 50" HD tv to a 65" 4K OLED with a full blown 11.1 Atmos surround (+ buttkickers) consisting of large Klipsch Speakers. To be clear, that was the evolution over less than a year
(didnt have anything except a small bluetooth speaker 2 years ago). First my home theatre (also planning a quadruple 15" VNF subwoofer config) with the K-402s. Then a nice pair of bookshelves (something none Klipsch for a change) and then I'll see hehe. I'm studying medicine so I still got 2 years before I start earning anything, and another 4-5 years before I have a real job :s after that I can start to look for a house to make a more permanent home theatre/listening room.
And about the Faital, I'm definitely gonna buy those instead of the K69 if I have the chance, I just have the option to go cheap
I'm looking at my options at the moment, I can buy the K-402 without thinking, but I had a budget in mind (as to prevent me from overspending on audio, and losing all my savings ha).
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21 minutes ago, Chris A said:
The K-69-A is apparently no longer available: it's a P.Audio BM-D750 Series I driver, unmodified, and was the least expensive alternative at that time. I've got two of them on hand, one of which I currently use in the K-402-MEH center loudspeaker. They originally came with my 2-way Jubilees in December of 2007 (wow...ten years of owning Jubs now
).
Chris
Whoa, I can buy that BM-D750 for less then half of the HF200! Would be great if I could buy the K-402 without horn (not expecting to, but oh well a man can hope
)
PS, I'm only 22 so if I get my Jubs, I'm probably in for a hell of a long ride with them
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14 minutes ago, Chris A said:
As I understand it, the K-1132 is actually a slightly better driver (with the custom phase plug design by Roy over the K-1133 midrange driver configuration). The reason for the use of the K-69, K-69-A, and the K-691 drivers is lower cost than the K-1132. So the K--1132 is preferable if you're okay with measuring them in-room and the cost difference.
If you wish, I can help with finding the REW EQ filters for the K-1132. I've helped with perhaps a dozen other people using email to transfer the REW ".mdat" files for other drivers, using REW's equalization optimizer to dial them in, including whatever bass bins you choose to use.
The Faital Pro HF20AT might have been discontinued but there are apparently a lot of them on the market now at good prices, e.g., https://smile.amazon.com/Faital-Pro-HF20AT-Driver-8/dp/B01DVUQRH0. The other HF200 series drivers are very close to the HF20AT driver, which itself was chosen by Bob Crites because the EQ required was somewhat easier for correction using passive crossover networks. I assume that all of the Faital Pro HF200 series drivers can be easily EQed flat using a DSP crossover, and will sound about like the HF20AT.
Chris
I'm planning on using HF200 all over my setup, so buying them first to save money is not a useless cost (as I can move them to the rear LaScalas) when I decide to move up to the more expensive 20AT or something even more high end (BePB945, TAD or JBL 2445 with Be-true extension diaphragms). K69 might not be a bad place to start, I'm hoping it can significantly reduce the cost. PS included the specs of the K1332 which I got from the dealer.
What is the weight / size of these puppy's?
Need/want to know somethinh though, still not sure if I'm able to do the MEH horn adjustments, but I'd be good to know if I can, so when I come across a single horn I'm able to buy it directly without hesitating. Soooo, how hard would you think it is to pull of via internet instructions? I got some very capable people who can help me with that (who have the correct gear too). That is of course, if you'd be willing to share your exact design with me. Would be very grateful! It would not only be an awesome speaker and project, but also a very good way to a decent height center channel. 
Will try it out later this evening. The optimisation of my sub is another thing I'm tring to figure out 
).
How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns.
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Know the feeling
I do that at least 5 times a day when texting/messaging.
Hmm.. Then I'll probably stick with mounting them vertically. Not really a problem. Interesting proposition (good plan for when I ever decide to make my custom HF200/K510 heights
Can you maybe suggest some good US second hand search engines? Something like hifishark.
Aight, thanks! Such a shame I didn't get my hands on that triple K-402 horn sale from few weeks back.. Almost had it arranged! Good to know about the material haha! Wouldnt have thought about that.
Will probably make my own box. Probably a nice veneered one too (considering the K-402 is already so expensive).
Well, chances are I'll buy my xilica before the end of february, so I'll have the same gear as you. Dont really have the time, but have did some testing with the UMIK, REW PEQ (your guide) and my sub. Interesting stuff! Good results too.
Not sure what you mean by that.. Are you building your own MEH design horn? As in a building plan to make a complete horn? Or? Sounds awesome none the less ! Would be very interested!! (how about a 11x exact MEH setup hehe).