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Chris A

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  1. Dayton Audio's DATS (the successor to Woofer Tester) seems to be accurate for the parameters that it measures, so by all means--post your T/S measurements. There is a thread where this information can be conveniently placed: Welcome to the forum! Chris
  2. I think that you're already there in terms of distortion. The 1802 is not really meant to go much lower than 26 Hz in half space. Pushing the response lower increases harmonic distortion fairly significantly. Of course, this is also true of other direct radiating subwoofers, too. The only way that I know to get relatively clean output below 26 Hz is to use a horn-loaded subwoofer with a horn length of greater than 12 feet of path length, and place the mouth of said horn in a room corner with stiffened/reinforced walls. As far as how audible that distortion is: if you presently cannot detect harmonic distortion, then your tolerance for it is fairly high at those low frequencies (which is, from my observations, fairly typical of most folks that haven't heard/felt clean output below 26 Hz). What you get when you boost the output below 26 Hz is lots of harmonics, but little clean output. My experience is that clean output in this frequency band is almost inaudible, but is mostly felt tactilely. If you can actually hear something when playing a tone or impulses below 26 Hz, you're mostly listening to harmonics (second, third, fourth...9th, etc.) Chris
  3. Were saying that the K-69-A has an increased phase plug spacing...?
  4. Not your best posting, Claude. Issues embedded...and assumptions that are not correct. Chris
  5. I just found out that there is a patent for DSP correction of low frequency phase growth--clearly, a bad patent because prior art is clearly provable in this instance by simple internet searches: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9992573B1/en?oq=9992573 The Toole book referenced above also shows that the technique was openly discussed years before the patent filing date (2008 publication date, referencing reports going back 15 year before that date). It seems that Meyer Sound thinks its appropriate to patent something that you can clearly find going back many years before the patent application date (29 Oct. 2013). I don't think this is the reason why patent protection laws came into existence. Perhaps the USPTO should give its examiners a computer with Google freely accessible for searching through the "prior art". Chris
  6. I've been working on my room and loudspeakers for over 10 years now, and I'm still finding things to do to improve the sound. It doesn't seem to be slowing down either, as I understand the effects of psychoacoustics on the resulting sound--particularly phase response: more on that subject below. You could do that for the LFE of movie tracks in your listening room. You're right in assuming that any direct radiating (DR) sub will have very high levels of harmonics at sub-25 Hz frequencies, and with that, the potential for modulation sidebands at higher frequencies if it's covering a wider band of frequencies than the one octave (i.e., ~12-25 Hz). It's best to roll off the lowest frequency subwoofer ("infrasonic woofer") so as to preclude heavy modulation sidebands from appearing at higher audible frequencies. Note that the direct radiating woofers will also introduce other forms of distortion--mainly compression distortion due to the small relative size of the woofers (without horn loading) to the wavelengths being produced, and secondarily due to thermal heating of the voice coils and passive crossovers--if they are used (which I don't recommend). It's probably worthwhile to experiment with EQing the bottom end of the 1802 in order to see what kind of extension can be had and how much amplifier gain you give up doing that. I've learned that it's usually better to use the horn-loaded bass bins below their cutoff frequency boosting their output using EQ, than to use much higher distortion direct radiating or even ported (bass reflex) woofers. Group/phase delay takes its toll in terms of the resulting sound. The quote below is from Toole's book, 1st Ed., pg. 420: This would seem to imply that the really dramatic phase shift introduced by bass reflex enclosures--through group delay growth alone--loses about a half an octave of subjective bass response. That's a lot. Chris
  7. Perhaps it might be instructive to discuss pressure zone acoustics instead of guessing what it really means. The following was taken from this link: https://www.acousticfields.com/room-pressure-zones/ If I read this correctly, in order for most listening rooms to be considered to be operating in the "pressure zone" using subwoofers having response up to 80 Hz, the room would need to be small enough to be in the pressure zone at subwoofer frequencies. That would mean to me that the maximal room dimension would be on the order of 12-14 feet in order to be operating in the pressure zone at ~40 Hz and below. So perhaps--you're both right...just at different assumptions of room size and frequency band of interest. In larger-sized listening rooms, there really isn't a pressure zone--say 30-40 feet long (mine is 40 feet long, so I don't deal with pressure zone, but I do have to deal with sitting inside the nearfield of the horn-loaded subwoofers--much less than 2 wavelengths). Chris
  8. Must be. I'm a bit surprised due to the positive comments from the crowd here on ATI amplifiers (which I don't own and haven't tested).
  9. This room is tailor made for Danley SH-50s with a tapped horn horn subwoofer crossed at 63 Hz (without the big stands that you see below): A pair of K-402-MEHs would actually work a little better--without a subwoofer...turned vertically. The K-402 horn itself is here compared to a La Scala: Chris
  10. What was the outcome of the updated presets file that I sent you a couple of days ago? This sounds like a connection problem somewhere in the chain. The Xilica itself is dead quiet. Chris
  11. As far as I know, all the KPT-KHJ-LF bass bins have used dual 12" drivers (originally K-31s). All the early bass bins (like the ones I own) used the strut stiffeners: ...while later ones use the shelf-type configuration--done to improve manufacturability and reduce assembly time (according to Roy): There have been one or two third party bass designs--not done by Klipsch that you might be referring to. I'd like to keep this thread focused on the Jubilee rather than all other competing designs. As far as the K-402 horns, there have been three versions that I'm aware of: the first one with a metal throat assembly (and the polymer material comprising the rest of the horn that softens and cracks when exposed to direct sunlight), the second compression molded version made of ABS that weighs in at 25 pounds/horn, and the current injection molded ABS version that weights in at 15 pounds. As far as I know, all three versions produce equal acoustic results. There are many customizations that can be done DIY by the owners. Mikebse2a3 (miketn) has modified his K-402s to enclose them, as shown in the pictures above and below, and has produced a full thickness front of zebrawood (IIRC) that hangs from the top of the bass bin and covers the center panel of the bass bin. Kudret produced the first full box for his K-402s, looking very similar to the KPT-305 mid-bass modules before selling them years ago: Many Jubilee owners have chosen to upgrade their 2" compression drivers. The first round of upgrades were to incorporate the TAD TD-4002 beryllium diaphragm drivers (very expensive), but more recently, there have been FaitalPRO HF200s and HF20ATs, Radian 950PB (aluminum diaphragm) or Radian 950BePB (beryllium diaphragm), BMS 4392NDs (dual ring diaphragm), various JBL 2" drivers, etc. The original K-69 driver (P.Audio BM-D750 series I) was replaced by the K-69-A (P.Audio BM-D750 series I with modified diaphragm-phase plug spacing), then more recently, back to the K-691 (a version of the B&C DE75 with a modification). There have been discussions of adding a nose on the front of the bass bins in order to complete the horn mouth closure--like that of a La Scala bass bin. This would help broaden the bass bin polars on the high end near the crossover frequency to the K-402 horn and deepen the FC of the bass bin another few Hz. The following picture of a Levan horn mouth extension for a similar type of W section bass bin is provided as a visual for the bass bin nose extension, with the added wide side panel wings of the Levan horn made necessary for the shown half-space loading of the picture. These extended side panels would not be needed for the Jubilee bass bin in a room corner, rather short wings spanning edges of the two mouths and angled to intersect the adjacent walls would be enough: Chris
  12. Some frequently-asked potential buyer questions (FAQs) for the home version Klipsch Jubilee: 1) What is a Jubilee? The Klipsch Jubilee consists of a redesigned dual-mouth ("W" section) bass bin having horn expansion path in one axis (versus both the horizontal and vertical in the original Khorn bass bin), and the K-402 high frequency horn on top that uses a full-range 2" compression driver, thus bringing the Klipschorn design back to its original two-way design of the 1940s and '50s that its inventor wished it to be. The crossover point is nominally 450-500 Hz. As sold by Klipsch, the two-way home version Jubilee was intended to be bi-amped using a DSP crossover, i.e., a "loudspeaker processor", for crossover and EQ balancing--the thin dark gray box on top of preamplifier in the photo below is one DSP crossover that is used with the Klipsch Jubilee. Third party passive crossovers are not supported by Klipsch, although there are passive schematics for the K-69-A compression driver and TAD TD-4002 compression driver (both drivers now discontinued). 2) What's so special about the Jubilee? Why should I consider buying them? The Klipsch Jubilee was originally developed to be the replacement for the Klipschorn (corner horn). Paul Klipsch intended to call it a "Klipschorn II", but its performance so exceeded the expectations of its inventor that the decision was made to call it the "Jubilee" in commemoration of the 50th year of the Klipschorn introduction to the marketplace in the mid-late 1940s. The Klipschorn is the only known loudspeaker to be in continuous production for all of those 50 years. Many that have heard Klipsch Jubilees consider them to be the finest loudspeaker that Klipsch produces. If you hear them, you'll understand why. The advantages of the Jubilee design over the original Klipschorn are: time alignment of the entire loudspeaker, leading to more neutral sounding loudspeakers overall without crossover interference band-induced timbre changes much better directivity vs. frequency of its acoustic output, leading to a huge soundstage image and very smooth sounding performance overall higher efficiency of both the bass bin and hf horn/driver due to the elimination of the passive crossover extremely low reactance load--direct connect to drivers to maximize driver damping much better frequency response flatness using the built-in equalizing filters in the DSP crossover to correct for the controlled directivity K-402 horn/driver and room response variances, especially in the midbass and below frequency bands Some history of the Klipsch Jubilee design, its bass bin, and K-402 horn can also be found here: 3) How much does a Klipsch Jubilee cost? The two-way Jubilees cost somewhat less than new Klipschorns. 4) What product ordering options are available? Klipsch provides a bass bin front panel veneer in a number of veneer choices. The K-691 compression driver (rebranded B&C DE75) is the standard driver bundled with the two-way home version Jubilee. 5) Where can I hear a pair of Jubilees? See the following thread: 6) Where can I buy a Jubilee? The two-way (home hi-fi version) Jubilee can be ordered in the U.S. through @MetropolisLakeOutfitters --a Klipsch dealer. Other dealers can be found through contacting Roy Delgado (roy.delgado@klipsch.com). 7) Does Klipsch provide setup support? If not, where can I get help? Klipsch does not provide setup support for these loudspeakers. Additional help can be obtained through Jubilee owners here on the Klipsch Forum. Free help with getting them dialed-in using DSP crossover can be obtained through @Chris A via email support using Room EQ Wizard (REW) and your chosen DSP crossover. It is recommended that you first consider using a Xilica crossover (XP or XD series) to facilitate the dialing-in tasks, although other DSP crossover types can also be used. It is also recommended that you use a better quality DSP crossover than a miniDSP, Behringer, and the entry-level dbx Driverack. 8 ) What active crossovers are used? What's recommended ? How do I program it? Several types of DSP crossovers have been used with the two-way home version Jubilee, including the older ElectroVoice Dx38 and its successor DC-One, Yamaha SP2060, Ashly Protea, and Xilica XP series. If buying through MetropolisLakeOutfitters, preloading of Xilica XP processor settings developed by Roy Delgado of Klipsch is an option supported by the dealer. 9) How do I buy a Jubilee if I don't live in the U.S.? What are my options? Contact Roy Delgado (roy.delgado@klipsch.com) to discuss your options for international sales. Note that most Klipsch dealers do not often handle Klipsch Professional products (i.e., cinema). Based on the history of difficulties getting the correct configuration for two-way home hi-fi operation, it is recommended to email Roy Delgado before contacting your local Klipsch dealer if you do not live and ship to the U.S. Chris
  13. In Ivan's case, if he's already got audible hiss then either the muting function is not set high enough or there is significant EMI on the XLR output cables to his amplifier. The Xilica is dead quiet in all the setups that I've used (XP-4080s for others , XP-8080 in my setup).
  14. I accessed the function from the front panel-turning it to "bypass". I heard no increased hiss levels after doing this--there was no audible hiss. So I believe that, in my setup, there is no need for the Internal System Optimizer (ISO) muting function. However, in Ivan's case--there may be a need. Chris
  15. In fact, I'd recommend raising the threshold of muting above the level "102" to see if that controls the quiescent hiss.
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