ODS123

I am sorry you see those two statements as having the same meaning. ..They do not.

Totally agree.. ...My grand parents got as much joy from music as anyone I know and they listened to it on the least expensive Realistic Carinette all-in-one system. One speaker was at ear level, the other on the floor.

I did not say or suggest that Roy TOLD people what to praise. I AM saying that if someone who is regarded as an authority (such as Ray) say's something like "listen to how much tighter the bass is" (just a possible example) that it is predictable that people will hear tighter bass. This does not make you gullible, it makes you human. This is why when patients participate in clinical trial they are (generally) NOT told whether they are being given the control or study medication. And I'm not suggesting anyone needs my stamp of approval. I AM suggesting to those who visit this website (or other such) to research a purchase (such as IV CW or Heresy's) that they consider the environment in which others' observations were made. ..That there is a gross lack of validity testing in MUCH of what you read here AND other audio websites. That one should ALWAYS consider the context.

This is NOT true. ..And I haven't made ANY mention of measurements in this thread. I DO want to hear peoples' opinions BUT find them be much much more valuable when efforts are made to minimize bias. And as I see it, a group of people being invited to Klipsch HQ, and then told what to listen for are NOT apt to offer anything but their approval that "Yes! ..That speaker (v. IV) does sound better. And as an engineer, I'm surprised you don't see my point. ..I'm not an engineer (I work in Pharma sales) but I am surrounded by them in my personal life and ALL of them agree with my belief that audio is bereft of any sensible bias controlling or validity testing.

It's a shame you feel this way. I do think think those who read your comparative remarks about the III v. IV would find your answers to my questions to be helpful. ..And I'm not saying it's not a fine speaker, by the way. By and By, I find it so disappointing that people don't approach this hobby with greater scientific curiosity, which would included an interest in reducing bias, validity testing, etc..

I have no idea what you're saying here, please expand. Volume matching was just ONE issue I raised - what about the others? ..Not the least of which is how being invited to Klipsch HQ is going to predispose someone to praise what they hear. Do you not agree?

To be clear, I think MOST claims about improvements from one generation of speaker to another end up being more subtle than not. I'm merely suggesting that people not be overly impressed with anecdotal, and possibly bias-laden, accounts. Anyway, I think it would be helpful if you answered my questions as it would provide context and possibly help substantiate your observations about the IV. Thank you.

Curious to know... When you compared the III's to the IV's: Did Roy tell you what was improved on the IV? If Yes, then listeners are predisposed to hearing the differences AND considering them to be improvements - BIAS! Were they carefully volume matched? If no, then the louder speaker is likely to be perceived as more open, dynamic, basically "better". - BIAS! Did you know which you were hearing at any given time? ..Was this a blinded or sighted comparison? If "sighted" there would be a strong tendency to pick Roy's version IV as sounding better. Afterall, you were his invited guest - would be kinda hard to say "nope, not hearing a difference." Kinda like a friend who says, "isn't my baby the most precious you've ever seen?" Plus, having been invited to preview the speakers confers a bit of prestige and pride on those invited. ..I see lot's of opportunity for confirmation bias here. BIAS! Did everyone hear everyone else's comments and observations? If yes, then much opportunity for each persons opinion to be affected by the opinions expressed by the others. Would be better if everyone just took notes on what they thought was better about them - then shared (or better, pass them to someone else to be read). BIAS! Sorry, but I find any listening comparison where there isn't a good-faithed effort to control biases to be rather uncompelling.

I think what you're saying makes sense. ..And as the owner of Cornwall III's, who has been reading lot's of similar hyperbole about how "the Cornwall IV's crush the III's! (by probably the same group of posters) I can relate to your comments. ..While I haven't had the occasion to hear the Cornwall IV's, let alone compare them side-by-side with the III's, I'm quite certain if I got the chance, the difference would be FAR more subtle than what people here would have you believe. After all, they were designed, engineered, and manufactured with the same guiding principles - so why would there be a night & day difference between them? When I bought my previous 2 speakers - Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and Paradigm S8 v2's, I had the occasion to compare them directly with their predecessors AND they too had their fanboys who claimed that they new model absolutely trounced the outgoing. What did I find?? ..In blinded tests it was VERY difficult telling them apart. ..And even when I succeeded, it wasn't entirely clear which sounded MORE like music. ..Just slightly different. ..And so I bet it goes with the version IV Cornwall And Heresy. ..That the differences are much more subtle than what you read here

And to add to Andrew Robinson's comments above, I'll repeat that Bob Crites, noted Klipsch authority and manufacturer of heralded upgrades (including drivers) also says Break-in, beyond an hour for large drivers, is BS. ..Of course it is. If a manufacturer knew their speakers sounded better after 30 hours of play, then they would make 30 hours of play part of the production process. And be doubly skeptical of anyone claiming electronic components or (sigh) cable have a break-in period. People offering mere anecdotal accounts of "I didn't think I'd hear a difference, but then I did..." are not very convincing. ...There can be a myriad of reasons why speakers or other components "sound" different from day to day, including one's mood, sinus congestion (gross), environmental noise, etc... But breakin? ..Sorry, but not so, IHMO.

To test the "break-in" hypothesis I suggest doing the following: After unboxing a new pair of speakers, let ONE speaker play through the night. This can be easily accomplished using the balance control. ..Come morning, play a song in MONO with both speakers set side-by-side and switch b/w them using the balance control. Do you hear a difference??? I did this with Spica TC-50's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and finally Paradigm S8 v2s. ..All were purchased new. ..Neither I, nor ANYONE in my family could hear one IOTA of difference b/w the speakers. Speaker break-in is a myth. Manufactures (some, not all) allow it to persist b/c it helps to mitigate returns from people who aren't bowled over by how their brand new speakers sound. "Don't do any critical listening for 50 hours" serves a purpose for manufacturers. ..They know that after that period of time your ears will have adjusted to your new speakers and the impulse to return them will have passed. And you'll probably have re-read the great reviews that led you to the purchase in the first place and have gone to web forums such as this where people will reassure you that they are much better than what you had.

I don't doubt what you're saying. Unfortunately, when a new iteration comes out it's inevitable that some will claim HUGE improvements based on marketing claims, etc.. In reality, there's not a great deal known now that wasn't known when the V2's came out. ..I wouldn't be surprised that when you actually set them side by side, the differences are suddenly quite subtle. As for break-in. ..I wouldn't count on it. THere's no way it takes 40 hours for speakers to break in. Bob Crites, who manufacturers replacement parts (incl. drivers, crossovers, etc..) and is regarded/ respected as an authority on all-things Klipsch, said that the most it takes for drivers to break is about an hour. 40 hours is totally redic.

Very cool! wouldn't work in my particular room, but a great solution for bigger rooms. ...I love being able to flip through forward facing records rather than straining to read spines.

Cornwall has companion to share the corner with. From Prathermade, my new Bedford LP storage unit. It’s handmade and took about 8wks from order to arrival. Holds about 200 records. $800. Note that the copper rails perfectly match the Klipsch insignia on the speaker. Other than being a happy customer I have no association with the company. Just wanted to give them a shout out. https://www.prathermade.com/shop

Geez... stop it with all the technical jargon! ..Way over my head!

Quite a coincidence... I had Vandersteen 3A Sigs driven by a Bryston 3bsst for about 5 years. I used a Bryston BP25 pre-amp. Though they sound great, your Vandersteens are quite inefficient, so require a very powerful amp. ..And because of their 1st Order Cross-over design, they are also a bit fragile. A bit too much power can easily result in a blown driver. For this reason, I was always reluctant to really crank them which is something I'd like to periodically do with my 2-channel system. I now have Cornwall III's and absolutely love them. I use a McIntosh MA6600 to drive them. I love my mac b/c of it's build quality, aesthetics, it has tone controls, a mono switch, and the ability to volume match all the input levels. But the 200 watts/ channel my amp produces is wayyyy more than necessary. If my wattage meters hit 20 watts, the volume is so loud as to risk hearing damage and irritate my neighbors across my yard!. ..My usual loud setting is around 4 watts. So, keep the Bryston if you want, but know for certain that you do NOT need all that power. Heck, Brystons lowest power amp would be overkill. Enjoy the Cornwalls - you won't regret the switch!

Not convinced. 99% of wood speaker cabinets made by top speaker companies are made with MDF, and that includes speakers that are so expensive that the incremental cost of using BB would be inconsequential. Vandersteen, KEF, Dynaudio, Legacy, PSB, Paradigm, etc. etc.. are made w/ MDF. As are the vast majority of Klipsch speakers that are NOT intended for installation in amusement parks, transportation stations, etc.. And even those speakers generally have MDF motorboards. Like I said, if MDF is such garbage, why are you all hanging out on the website of a brand that uses this material extensively throughout it's product lineup? ..Maybe form your own "DIY w/BBP" Forum outside of Klipsch.com.?

Dave, Don’t you feel it’s bad form to endlessly trash MDF when nearly ALL of Klipsch‘s current speakers are made entirely or in part with this material? I mean, if you feel their present day speakers are such junk, then why spend so much time here? ...just sayin’

Well.... It appears SpeakerLab has switched back. Here they comment on their "locally sourced, formaldehyde-free MDF" in their Behind The Scenes Video. Which implies that PWK might have a different opinion on MDF today as well. ..I believe it is even used in the new Klipschorn. http://slspeakers.com/galleries.html#speakers

This thread is in the 2-Channel Home Audio section. And I don’t see why discussing materials is irrelevant to the topic. The title of the thread is "what are the best year model(s) cornwalls?" As a switch was made from plywood to MDF - from ver 2 to 3, I believe - I think my comments are germane. And if not, they certainly are not offensive. You can alway exercise your right to not participate in the thread.

Your distain for people with MBA’s is curious. Do you feel this way about others with advanced degrees? Like doctors, engineers, scientists etc.? We live in a weird time when people with an extensive education are denigrated. And just to be clear it’s not that I dislike plywood 🙂 Its that I dislike it when people make blanket statements, like “MDF is garbage”. Because such a statement impugns the expertise of the great majority of speaker designers who feel MDF is the equal or perhaps better material. Designers like all of those that I listed earlier in the thread. Plus, you discribe a durability issue with MDF that neither I nor any one I know has ever experienced. Which would include dozens and dozens and dozens of speakers.

Because it undermines yours and HDR's narrative that MDF is chosen because of cost rather than engineering considerations, including sonic qualities.

Well I guess every speaker I've ever owned had sufficient adhesive integrity to pass the drop test because not a SINGLE one ever came apart after years and years of ownership. ..And EVERY one was made from MDF. ..Come to think of it, I don't have a single friend who owns an MDF speaker that spontaneously came apart, or suffered water damage for that matter. ..And like me, most have had kept speakers for many many years. My advice to speaker desginers/makers: Use whichever material makes for a better sounding speaker. ..Leave it to the owner to keep the speaker safe from falls or water damage; you know, like the way one treats EVERY appliance in their home. We don't pick our turntables, amplifiers, cd players or flat-screen TV's based on which can best hold up after being dropped, I don't see why we should assess speakers differently.

HDR, I'm not trying to convince you what to do. And It's not for your benefit that I persist in my defense of MDF as at least an equal and perhaps a BETTER material for speakers. As for drop tests... For goodness sake, I don't make my component choices based on what will best endure abuse or accidents. ..As I've pointed out time and again, over the past 30 years I've had speakers from Boston Acoustics, Polk, Spica, KEF, PSB, Vandersteen, Paradigm, and now Klipsch and precisely NONE OF THEM has ever been dropped, or the unfortunate victim of an in-house water catastrophe. And every one was made from MDF - just like pretty much EVERY wood speaker these days. Speakers are not houses.

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/glossary/speaker-baffle "A speaker baffle is the front face of the a speaker...and is often an under-rated aspect of speaker engineering." FWIW, I've only seen the term "motorboard" used by Klipsch. ..Nonetheless, they are the same. And the fact that Klipsch choses MDF for this "under-rated aspect of speaker engineering" for nearly ALL of their currently available speakers is interesting to me.