MechEngVic
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Posts posted by MechEngVic
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On 9/23/2019 at 5:16 AM, Ljk said:
I have stripped black paint from klipsch academy and sw12 sub with good results. Both were originally oak Verneer painted black; success with yours might depend on type of wood/finish.
How'd you do it and do you have pictures?
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I compared the Forte II's and Chorus II's for about 1.5 seconds before I picked the chorus II's. I have since listened extensively to Forte II's (my friend's) and they do sound incredible. But going back to the Chorus' always reinforced my decision. When my friend listened to the Chorus' for the first time, he regretted buying the Forte's (the store where he bought the Forte's didn't have the Chorus').
I sold the Chorus' several years ago because I moved into a smaller place, and I have missed them every single day.
Cabinet and crossover improvements will give the Chorus' all and more of the detail of the Forte's
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19 hours ago, seti said:
I appreciate your optimism and I hope it becomes a reality but not yet. I've not met a modern production 6DJ8, 12AU7, 12AX7, or 12AT7 that can compare to old school Siemens, Telefunken, Amperex, or Mullard. Not even on the same planet. Then there are rectifiers... Please find me a modern replacement for an amperex or mullard GZ34. The ones I've tried have not gone well. Just don't use them. I call them sparklers. Don't even get me started on a modern EL84 or EL37... Sigh.... The list goes on. I hope modern tubes keep improving but they aren't there yet...
Then there are the triodes... There are some decent modern 2a3 and 300b out there. This might be where the most energy has been spent to get decent modern equivalents.
The reason old tubes command the price and respect is because they are awesome and from the glory days of Hi-Fi. Do not ever trust a tube as NOS unless you find it and are the first to pull it from the box yourself. I've only been that lucky a few times. Seriously it took 50 to 80 years for tube knowledge to evovle. It is foolish to think we can just recreate that knowledge base in a short time... But I want to believe it will get there. Will it ever best Western Electric or Eimac...... NO....
I've heard some of those GZ34 horror stories. I am fascinated in this knowledge base you speak of. Are you saying that the methods which built the best old tubes was some how lost, or not passed on properly? Did the advent of SS make us lose so much interest in tubes that the know-how was deemed irrelevant and discarded? It seems like a great folly in retrospect.
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19 hours ago, seti said:
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3 hours ago, kevinmi said:
I have read that the old tubes used far superior materials in the build, contributing to their signature sound. I have a boatload of tubes, both vintage and new production. It can be a crap shoot sometimes to get good vintage tubes, not because the tubes quality is bad, but because unscrupulous sellers are selling junk tubes. I have tubes built in the 40's that sound just wonderful, attesting to their longevity. I run vintage tubes in all my tube gear, consisting of 4 tube amps and 1 tube preamp, plus a cd player with tubes.
I have bought bad tubes from reputable dealers, and even they will admit it's hard to source true NOS tubes. The best sellers have good tube matching AND a good exchange policy. I think for us tube users that don't have tens of years of experience in finding them and the associated knowledge to do it, it's lucky when we get good ones.
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Whichever set of speakers you go with, as long a they're Klipsch, you'll be happy. If you want to stick your amp in a cabinet and forget about it, get a SS. If you want to have an interactive love affair with the most beautiful looking and sounding piece of audio equipment you will ever own, get a tube amp.
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A comment in an earlier post got me thinking about this subject.
I can only speak of my very limited experience with new vs nos tubes, and offer some thoughts, but I'd to hear from other tube gear owners.
I think we can all agree that there is a preference for the old famous tubes of yore, but we also know that NOS it a term used loosely by some sellers and we don't always get what we paid for. And, I believe that new production tubes have suffered in their reputation for reliability by new production problems, and many say they don't match the sound quality of the old. I think that mostly covers the controversies in a broad stroke.
Well at this point, having used new production tubes for a couple of years only, I can't really speak to the reliability of them, other than I have only experienced one failure in about two dozen new tubes. But NOS tubes, from several sources, even reputable ones, have had about a 1 in 5 failure rate within a short time of initial use. I've bought at least 50 NOS tubes in the last several years. Models of new and NOS tubes include: EL-34, KT-88, 6V6, 12AX7 and its derivatives, 6GH8A and its derivatives, 6C4P-EV, 5U4G, and a few others I can't remember.
Except for the Blackburn-made Amperex 6GH8A's (the best sounding tube I have ever heard), the new production tubes have sounded better IMO. Now, granted, I have not spent a grand on a quad of NOS Mullard EL-34's, but I did buy a NOS set of SED Svetlana EL-34's, and the truth is, an 80.00$ quad of New production Mullard's sounded just as good at almost 1/3 the cost.
Here's what I think: Reliability issues with new production tubes will soon, if not already, be a thing of the past. Tube makers are working out the kinks, and they can probably do it more efficiently than could be done in the past. And because new tubes are almost exclusively used for sound reproduction, the focus is on sound quality. That was not the case in the past. And finally, given enough demand, new tube sound quality will surpass that of any and all old production tubes. Something to think about the next time you have to buy: Buying new supports new tube development and improvement.
I, for one, would love to see to what new levels of sound quality and reliability new tubes could be taken, by scrutinizing the old designs we love with modern testing methods and remaking them with improved production capabilities.
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On 9/17/2019 at 11:15 PM, justinsweber said:
Absolutely Gorgeous.
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12 hours ago, Imsjry said:
Thanks all for your input. Sounds like there is not really a decent, "cheaper" way to try out tubes that would be worthwhile. My goal was just to find something inexpensive with a 30 day return just to see if i liked or even noticed the change. I've read some posts that talked about tubes being some life changing event vs SS and some of those I've read are somehow even using little tube "headphone" amps as the Pre to drive their system.
I'll stay very happy with my current "budget" SS gear (which really is wonderful) until i win the lottery someday.Read what others in other forums have said about these amps, I think you'll be suprised.
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On 9/8/2019 at 5:10 PM, justinsweber said:
Ive built monoblock versions which I use daily with my Cornscalas.
These are with the original front end config. There is no noise issue.
These are remarkable amps and are extremely wide bandwidth and low coloration.
FR is 6hz to 128Khz at 1 watt
Would love to see those monoblocks...
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I wish I could buy one of each of everything he has.
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Anyone who says Chorus II's sound better with solid state amps... is sadly mistaken. I bought a pair in 1994ish. I tried them with the Yamaha Natural Sound 100watt per channel amp and preamp, I tried them with a 1000.00$ Crown 1000watt per channel mosfet amp and the Yamaha pre, my Pioneer 100 watt per channel receiver, and my friend's Denon 80watt per channel receiver, all connected to an Adcom CD player and California Audio Labs DAC. They were loud, but that's all.
Then I bought the Dynaco Stereo 70 Series II... I was the first time I cried from the musical beauty that washed over me. It changed my life. There was NO comparison. NONE.
35 watts per channel of tube juice made those 15' woofers pound so hard I couldn't feel the couch I was sitting in! The woofers were pounding harder than any of the other amps, AND the mids!!!!! So crunchy! So windy! The Dynaco smoothed out the harshness that every solid state amp I tried had. I have been a tube junkie ever since. I eventually used an Adcom solid state preamp with the Dynaco and it rocked my world for 14 years until I had to sell the chorus' due to moving. I miss those speakers every day.
But the thing I will never part with is the Dynaco. I have since rebuilt it and it runs a pair of KLF-10's that, while not as loud, sound every bit as juicy as the Chours' did. I have a tube pre now and will never go back to solid state. Plus there's not an SS amp in existence as purdy as my glowing Dynaco. I hope every SS owner is terribly offended
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I've never heard a set of headphones that matched the sound of a good set of speakers, regardless of the room. Even the best headphones lack the physical impact.
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18 hours ago, DirtyErnie said:
Doesn't that first 1.75uf cap set a 6db slope to compensate for the constant-directivity of the horn? I see the same set-up on my CF2's, same horn I think. Would it be possible to both decrease the volume a bit (3db) and extend the treble by moving that cap's break-point up a half octave?
Your question is beyond me. Hopefully Maz4bz can chime in or maybe you can message him. How would you move a cap's break point? By changing the value? And if so, how do the values correspond to octaves? And please tell me about this constant-directivity of the horn compensation. I'm afraid I'm making you give knowledge instead of receiving it, hope you don't mind. I've been wondering what specific purposes the individual components serve.
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1 hour ago, 314carpenter said:
In 1996 for the KLF-30. The market trend was pushing hard for speakers with a smaller footprint. Tall narrow deep speakers were in vogue. Electronics were coming standard with subwoofer outputs. Multi channel at home was a finally a real thing. Big old box speakers seemed very old fashioned. Kind of like how old muscle cars were getting dumped at the same time. LOL.
I bought my Chorus II's in about 1994. The instant I heard the sound coming from them I knew. I compared them side by side with the Forte's and, to me, the Chorus' were significantly better. I compared them to speakers costing 3 and 4 times as much and nothing was even close. I had to sell them in the early 2000's due to moving into a smaller place. Now I just don't have the room for them and have the KLF10's. I guess we were looking for smaller footprints after all... I wish Klipsch would have continued development of the Chorus instead of the Forte.
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Why did Klipsch ever stop Chorus production?
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Maz4bz,
Just wanted to say thanks again for the time and effort you put in to improving your speakers and the benefit it will give anyone who looks over what you've done and decides to apply a similar tactic. I am still having those "I can't believe the sound I am hearing from my speakers!" moments! It's amazing what 2 10-ohm resistors did.
Another thing I noticed: I use the chromecast audio streamer to stream Amazon music over wi-fi. The bass and treble controls on the chromecast operate on the digital level so I believe they can be considered DSP level controls. Well, before adding the resistors, I was less than happy with the changes made by adjusting those controls. The music always sounded worse. After adding the resistors, the changes I make to bass and treble through the chromecast audio dongle make meaningful changes to music lacking a bit of high-or-low-end fidelity. The music quality does not suffer, which is supposed to be what DSP is all about. Some talk of DSP as the cure to all woes, but now I think it can work either way; improvements in passive circuits can make all the difference, even to DSP.
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If you want midrange crunch and rolled off highs, I would suggest an EL-34 powered amp. If you want flat and bright, KT-XX powered amps. Many amps will let you use either EL-34's or KT-77-88-66-120... If cost is no object you will never go wrong with the Mcintosh mc275
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17 hours ago, Maz4bz said:
Hi MechEngVic,
Glad you were able to have a play with the XSim .dxo it is a great tool.
I think you did the right thing here. 0.05uF is a very small difference in value and I would be highly surprised if that was audible.
I would hate it if you replaced that lovely looking Clarity Cap on the basis of what you have seen in the XSim .dxo I provided. The reason for this is that we are not using the KLF10 driver measurements for the combined system response. We would need these measurements to do any kind of granular change to the crossover, such as changing a cap by any value, especially a value of only 0.05uF, for example.
My intent in sharing the XSim model was simply to show how we might address the gross difference in output between tweeter and woofers, if these have similar efficiency to the KG 5.5 drivers. The beauty of the R2 tweak I have suggested is that it works like a simple volume control on the tweeter level that you can absolutely hear the difference of when implemented into a system like the KG 5.5's which are approximately 5db hot on top. 5db is a big/gross change to the level of the tweeter that will definitely be audible.
Notwithstanding I encourage you to change up your crossover however you like, its completely reversible and a fun way to learn. I would like to suggest that you can do that with nice cheap parts, like I have done in my KG thread, first. Then if you settle on a design as final, you can go nuts and spend big on parts then. Of course if money is no object please completely ignore me!
If money is no object then you really owe it to yourself to get a measurement mic. Then you will know precisely the impact of any changes you make.
I will very much look forward to what you find.
I also highly recommend trying other values for R2, mainly as a learning opportunity, and because the 10ohms value was just a stab in the dark on my behalf - we are not using your KLF drivers in the model after all. If you try a range of values and give each change a while for you to acclimate to, I'm sure you will find a balance that suits your taste. If you then give us a "review" of each value it may help others to zero in on a value that works for them too.
Have fun and good luck!
You did it.
Your 10 ohm resistor fixes the KLF-10/KG5.5.
I can't believe a pair of 3.00$ resistors made more improvement than the Crite's titanium tweeter diaphragms, the Clarity CSA and Russian PIO caps, and the silver plated pure copper 14 gauge wiring. Proof positive that the greatest improvements in sound come from a properly designed circuit, and not from fancy boutique parts or exotic materials.
The resistors actually measured 12 ohms so it's not such a drastic change but boy does it make a difference! I don't hear the need to make any other changes to the crossover at this time. But I will definitely be putting in some time with the XSim.
I owe you big. Next time you're in Los Angeles I'm buying you a steak dinner!
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50 minutes ago, Denman53 said:
Hello...my name is Denman....I'm new to this web site and have been struggling to navigate and learn how to communicate....I did find the talk about the KLF-10s....and i am needing one of the plastic carpet spike covers....is there a possibility someone my know how to find one of these....THANKS denman
Hello Denman,
Those covers will be hard to come by. A possible replacement is a set of 1" spike feet and 1" felt pads, they will do the trick.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B075WSC4HQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07C2KK96B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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On 9/2/2019 at 6:46 AM, Maz4bz said:
I should have added the XSim .dxo file I used to do the sims so you can have a play for yourself.
Just head over to the XSim thread at diyaudio.com and grab the latest version from there.
Please do let us know how you get on. If you need any help just sing out!
A million thanks!! I've been needing this. I wish I would've had it before I built my custom crossovers. Since the 1.75uf cap is not commercially available I went with a 1.8uf, and now with the Xsim I realize I should have gone with a smaller not larger value. I will make the adjustment. Also, I have 10ohm resistors on the way. I think your resistor fix is just what I've been looking for. I'll let you know how it goes.
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On 8/30/2019 at 12:53 PM, glens said:
The last part of that quote is unambiguous (congrats!) but I'm having a little trouble correlating the "corner post style" with the "open box style." Could you elaborate, or maybe even prove you actually did it™ with a pic or two? :^)
I hope you can see the pics now.
In earlier comments on this thread, moray james posted an image of stands with a corner post design which I thought looked good but others commented that without solid sides around the stands, they would lose bass coupling to the floor. By "open box" style I meant the four sided base with open top and bottom like the bases on Chorus and forte speakers. I sort of combined the two.
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14 hours ago, Maz4bz said:
Nice stands. They turned out really great. You have some wood working skills for sure.
I would imagine that your KLF10 sound wonderful as I adore my KG5.5's which are the KLF10's predecessor if I'm not mistaken, they do look similar with their dual 10" woofers and tweeter. As I sit in my lounge with my ears at tweeter height I've not lifted mine.
I think you may have found that the double woofer, two way arrangement of these speakers has a very narrow vertical forward lobe, like I have. This means that when I move above or below the tweeter much, the midrange suffers.
When I measure the KG's in two way configuration vs an all new 2.5 way crossover I've designed for this system there is a big difference in their off axis performance around the crossover region. Measured upwards 25 degrees above for 2.5 way (black) vs 20 degrees above for the 2 way crossover (red) ....
Here is the downward measurement both at 20 degrees (again black = 2.5 way, red = 2 way)….
So I think you hit the nail on the head when you say your speakers bloom when you're on axis with the tweeter. This is also why I think our speakers deserve a 2.5 way crossover, rather than the 2way that they have.
I thought I'd plug the KLF10 crossover that Moray posted a while back into XSim and load it up using the individual KG 5.5 driver frequency response measurements to see where your crossover is. I'd call this a 1500hz crossover where (green) both woofers wired in parallel and (red) tweeter frequency responses cross over:
Now this is a bit academic as we are not using the individual measured frequency response of your KLF10 drivers here, but no matter, it'll likely be close but certainly not perfect! The KLF 10 crossover schematic is almost identical to the KG 5.5. The KLF woofers are a different model number, however the tweeter seems to use the same diaphragm.
Notwithstanding if your drivers have similar sensitivity to the KG's then your tweeter will be around 5db or so hot like it is in the graph above. If this is the case then your KLF's can be sooooo much better!
So I notice you mention the tweeter is a bit hot, same for the KG 5.5's. Here is a little suggestion I've modelled for you. Similar to what I did on my KG journey.
Here is the original KLF10 crossover:
I would like to propose a single change to the tweeter (S1) circuit with the addition of a resistor R2 of 10 ohms:
This will result in the following change in output to the tweeter, grey is original and blue is new:
This flattens the tweeter to be more in balance with the woofers and should be a BIG improvement. It was for the KG's.
Of course we are not working with the measured response of your KLF10 drivers so you can adjust R2 to taste, there is no right or wrong here, as Troels Gravesen says:
"Some call the voicing of speakers an art. I don't think so. Voicing a speaker is a matter of taste like adding spices to a stew. Some like it hot, creamy or crunchy - some don't."
So here is the same crossover with a 6.2 ohms R2 for a more subdued top end:
Or here with a 13 ohms R2 if either of the above took out too much sparkle:
What I am proposing here is to experiment with the value of R2 until you enjoy what you hear. Resistors are really cheap. Buy a handful and have some fun experimenting. This change is completely reversible if you don't like it.
It will take some time to acclimate to the changes, give it time and if you start to think too dull or too bright, tweak R2 some more. It took me some weeks of listening to adjust to the Lpads that I originally added to the KG's. I incrementally changed these until my speakers got too dark/dull. Then I retreated a little to regain some top end sparkle. What I settled on ended up being just about ruler flat with no measuring equipment. Trust your ears!
If you are the scientific kind however, then a cheap USB mic and some free software is like being able to see for the first time. I highly recommend the investment. Wish I'd done it earlier. I use the Dayton Audio Omnimic system, it is a terrific tool and so easy to use.
And don't worry about how low you can go in terms of ohms with R2. As an example if you set R2 to just 1 ohms, which I really doubt you'd ever do as it cuts about 15db output from the tweeter and would sound very dark, the system impedance never dips below 4 ohms.
Here is the original crossover in grey compared to R2 @ 1 ohms in blue:
Hope this helps and may your terrific Klipsch provide you many years of enjoyment - they are undoubtedly very fine speakers.
Cheers
WOW! I'm gonna have to spend some time going over your post.
I do have the Crite's titanium diaphragms and custom upgraded crossovers, but using warm tubes & PIO caps in addition to height and placement adjustments really helped tame the high end. It's way more "S", "T", "P" and "H/CH" articulate. But I am certainly not opposed to revisiting my crossovers...
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Painted Heresy II
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
A difference between RP160m's and Heresy II's? They'll make a big difference.