Mallette

Jeff: Like many audiophiles, I recommend returning all not clearly marked copy-protected CD's to the dealer as defective...if they won't play they are legally defective under the Phillips CD standard. That is the only way we will ever win that battle. Of course, there are still about a MILLION lp's out there I've not sampled...but they are not copy protected! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

I've experienced a couple of periods recently where the system would return a "server not found" when attempting to post. My post would also disappear )-:. Sometimes I had to back out all the way to the Klipsch homepage and come back in to get it to work. The system in general would be very slow at the same time. However, I've not experienced a complete failure to update like you. I've been copying my post to clipboard befort hitting submit lately. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Maybe I forgot the smiley? I was trying to be playful. Didn't intend to be rough...not my style. On the amp, lowest cost path to nirvana is to obtain a Dynaco ST-70 chassis with a good power supply and get whatever version of Van Alstine's (www.avahifi.com) ST-70 rebuild kit fits your interest and budget. I think the low end is about 70.00 for circuit boards, parts lists, and plans to 589.00 for a factory rebuild. Bill Barista of this list shared his VTI-70 with a group of us a while back. It was awesome to look at as well as to hear. Less than a 1000.00 ready to roll. Listener mag reviewed an Antique Sound Labs amp this issue they freaked over both visually and sonically. It was 999.00...but 3.2 watts/channel so really needs horns or very high efficiency. BTW, the Card Deluxe can be clock sync'd and you can stuff as many in a box as you have slots. Lot's of possibilities. If an apology is in order, my I extend it? Best regards, Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Crikey, your a GEEK and using a CD changer? Contradiction in terms. A GEEK has a Card Deluxe and dumps his CD's to HDD like God intended so as not to have to paint the edges of the discs green or some such BS to get good sound. Can't believe this... Dave (GEEK) ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

"Maybe I should pay more attention to Music Guild records." A good plan. Like I said, I am constantly amazed at what I find behind the least likely covers. At these prices, I just buy it and try it. Personally, I think this is the greatest musical period in my lifetime. Damn near FREE MUSIC. I think I may tone down my analog proselytizing. Geez, who needs competition? Just drives prices up! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Probably should have pointed out that my Dynaco interest was based on having owned a Dyna SCA-35 integrated many years ago, as well as an ST-70 power amp, which I still have. I ran my K'horns with a friends SCA-35 just a couple of weeks ago and was very happy with the sound. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

I've an AVA Super PAS4i that I've benn very happy with. Paid about 750.00 for it new from Frank. He is now offering a new line that concludes with the Transcendence 7 for a lot more bucks. Not sure what that would get you, but AVA is well workh looking in to if you are considereing "new" vintage equipment based on the Dynaco heritage. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Well, #7 doesn't get into wall length, though of course, #6 does. I've not seen any of PWK's direct writings that connect his statement of the requirement for three speakers to provide a correct image to his preference for the long wall in any given room as the best placement for the speakers. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Damn, my writing is not getting any better... Next to last sentence should read "To state that he was doing so would have pointed out this weakness, something a pure scientist might do but not something a scientist who also made his living selling his product would NOT do." I'd be a POOR engineer. :-> Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Yes, I understood what you were saying and was not debating that. It appeared that you and MH were stating that the Bell Labs experiments used only mono sources, and that PWK's statement referred to the same research as being done with stereo sources. That confused me, as one doesn't need to do and experiment to determine that more mono speakers means more sound from more places, but staging certainly would be improved since there isn't any. BTW, my staging is vastly improved with the Cornwall. It may well be that the "muddying" you mention as a flaw in the center channel application is reduced by having a less efficient speaker than the left and right mains. I don't have a sensitivity spec for La Scalla or Belle. Could you refresh my memory? While not disputing anything you've said, I would maintain that PWK states clearly in both marketing and in his engineering papers that "Ability to localize the virtual (reproduced) sound sources in their original spatial relationships requires 3 widely spaced speakers, regardless of size or type..." From a 1972 Klipsch brochure. Those words simply are not subject to interpretation. Please understand that I realize both from my own experience and that of myriad audiophiles that the above does not hold true outside the Klipsch universe. I've done a pretty poor job of attempting to state clearly that it is my belief that PWK was referring to Klipschorns specifically, due to their imaging weakness in any but ideal rooms. To state that he was doing so would have pointed out this weakness, something a pure scientist might do but not something a scientist who also made his living selling his product would do. Am I making any sense here? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

OK, then Mark Twain or The Joy of Sex. I was simply counciling satisfaction. Lao Tzu is neither religious nor mystical. However, his discussion of how desire ruins life is quite applicable to the audiophile gone ape. Your system is enviable. Well matched and capable of everything a music system needs to do. While I've K'horns with a Cornwall center and a pair of vintage Fraziers in the rear (fed by a passive Hafler DynaQuad), my system is pretty much a mishmash of odds and ends. Nonetheless, it is capable of transporting me to realms of joy. Made a trip to Half-Price Books yesterday, and came away with yet another stack of goodies for next to nothing. Lots of good stuff (including 4 Firesign Theatre albums in near mint), but there was that surprise. Music Guild MS-114 "Buxtehude, Latin and German Cantatas." Took it mainly for repertoire purposes and because it was 50 cents. Put it on the TT, and there was this wonderful silky silence followed by two violins, a cello, and positiv organ. The the counter tenor popped in...90 degrees to my left and as if someone had entered the room and begun to sing. So startling my 4 year old daughter spun around a looking in that direction. The tenor and bass were in the left front and right front respectively with the instruments spread between. Awesome. You can't judge a record by its cover! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Pick up a copy of Lao Tzu to read whilst you listen. Then you will understand you've reached an enviable state. Desire destroys life and is the true root of all evil. The audiophile who sits in front of a system and hears nothing but all that is wrong with it is a truely sad person. My system is probably in worse shape than yours, but like you, the music so magically erases all those issues that I find myself in a state of complete gratitude to be so blessed. Now, if someone would just mow my yard! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

"The Bell Telephone Laboratories used three speakers, the center either in an electrically independent channel or bridged across two stereo channels." Was PWK mistaken about this? It is directly from the 8 Card. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

"By the way, your Khorns sure looked big. What were they, about 8' tall or so???" No, they just SOUND that way. :-) HDBR: Well, you were there, and I've come to have enormous respect for your knowledge of PWK and Heritage. OTOH, I just re-read Section VII of the 8 Card, and it must be like the Bible: Saying one thing to one person and something else to another. "The Bell Telephone Laboratories used three speakers, the center either in an electrically independent channel or bridged across two stereo channels. No subsequent development has succeeded in obviating the need for three speakers, ecept where only the simple right-left effect is sought. For the hearing mechanism to be able to fuse the sounds into a curtain resembling the original, a source in the central area is needed." The last two paragraphs: "Filling of the "hole in the middle" becomes incidental; when the virtual sound sources correspond to the original locations, the resulting "accuracy of geometry" includes eliminating the hole in the middle. Without the center speaker, the absence of a hole in the middle becomes a rare "special case" for perhaps just one observing location and perhaps not even one location. This is true regardless of the stereo recording technique or number of microphones. no bridging of microphones can fill the hole in the center if there is no speaker there to reproduce it except sometimes for one unigque observing location. The center speaker is capable of affording the "solid sound curtain." That all sounds pretty definite to me. As I said somewhere above, I feel the entire 8 Card is Klipschorn specific. I toed mine in some this morning, listened with and without the center. Granted, this didn't get them closer together...that would be a real hassle. I heard no dramatic change in staging except with and without the Cornwall. What MH said about priorities: "The number one priority is still tone and a sense of life. The "visuals" do take a back seat here. Horns and tubes tend to do the TONE thing so damn well. Of course, we cant leave out dynamics. But the imaging has never been the strong suit although it can be damn good. In some ways, I miss the amazing soundstaging capability of my monitors and ProAc speakers. They both really excel in this area. But the Cornwalls make up for it in other ways, especially when employing low watt SE tube amplification (or even quality vintage)." This rings true for me. Some of my own location recordings have an excellent stage...perhaps because I was there and know where things and people were? Also other various recordings. Others are either LR or occasionaly LR and center. However, the MUSIC, the REALITY, the PRESENCE is always there. These are the critical things for me. I like it when my K'horns simply disappear, and there is nothing in the corner but Louis Armstrong. Now THAT is an IMAGE! Hey, you guys have made this thread fun and educational, too. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Actual room dimension from the plans is 23'9" X 15.5. The measurement I gave above was from tweet to tweet across the front, then from tweet to sofa center. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

You seem dead convinced that PWK and Bell Labs were totally wrong about the center channel concept. Certainly has become established in HT apps. Granted, that's not music, but I've heard music mixed for it that was quite nice. Anyway, I've no placement options at the moment without returning to the living room, and I'd rather live with weak staging (there is no "hole"...just not precise positioning). Since I listen to lots of pipe organ, symphonies, big band, and 78s that have little or no precise positioning anyway, I can live with it as opposed to having to battle with the HT. Might try toeing them in a bit just as an experiment to insure that I really CAN live with it for a while. If I am so overwhelmed with the improvement in staging that I can't live without it, false wall would be the route. BTW, what is the SIMPLEST (even if not ideal) false wall method? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Isn't it nice when what you've got floats your boat in spite of theory? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Since all Technics products assume the use of a whizzer cone to handle its output, it is not surprising that the stuff ran down all over the woofer. As I've just finished listening to the Mobile Fidelity LP reissue of the London Solti Beethoven's 9th with the other Cornwall in the center, I can assure you that it is working fine. And my PAW Kecia can assure you that it doesn't smell like dog...the system is in our bedroom. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Thanks HDBR, and all, for input on this thread. Since 18' puts me behind a sink in the master bath, I am going to have to live with the situation...which is still very, very, nice indeed. While I could easily place a false wall in my living room and would have PLENTY of sweet zone, that would entail having to compete with the TV again. I'd rather have less image anytime I feel the urge than a great image I can't use because "ER" is on. Even the PAW requires maintenance to keep her that way! Should we be blessed with the resources to do so, we have eventual add on plans (which will be based on the needs of K'horns!) for a separate family room. In the meantime, I remain happy and content to be lucky enough to have what I do. Got the stylus replacement for my Grado. In luck yet a third time-no hum, just really great music. Also managed MacGyver a solution to the SME meeting the back part of the dust cover. I placed two faucet washers, the 1/4" thick type, in the two bottom hinge holes. I did not put one in the top hinge hole. Then, I tightened down the bottom screws to compress the washers, which provided adjustability to the clearance. The top washerless screw provided another bit of adjustability. It is very stable and now JUST clears the arm when it is at rest. A fine conclusion to a Summer Audio Weekend. Hope you all have the same! Best regards, Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Some turntables have a mechanism to lock the float for transport. Make certain the transport is floating freely, if it is designed to do so. If all that checks out, try placing it directly on the floor (this assumes a slab or stable floor) away from any other components. If it persists, you may have bad bearings or some similar terminal defect. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

MH: I don't doubt what you are saying. I am simply a bit dense about understanding it. Why something with low mass would help a suspension "do its thing" better just don't penetrate me noodle. HDBR's hanging solution (I actually did that once for a TT myself under similar circumstances)...would that qualify as rigid but low mass? Anyway, I'd appreciate both of you guys (and, of course, anyone else) commenting on my response to the last couple of messages in the "Summer Audio Afternoon" thread. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

As I've said before, I am a proponent of dead-weight for turntables. Someone said some sound better on lighter surfaces, but this doesn't make sense to me. When I did my audition for AFRTS many years ago at the old 30's vintage KWKH studios in Shreveport, LA, the turntables were on 3' square solid concrete pillars. At the moment, mine is on a shelf, but that shelf shares space for 500 or so LP's, and another 100 lbs. or so of out-of-service amplifiers. Tapping on the surface yields nothing at the speakers. I hope to build a box soon that can hold 150 lbs. or so of gravel for my turntables. Such supports standing independent of any other structure but the slab totally isolate the table from anything short of an earthquake. When you can walk up to it with a record playing, kick it and hear nothing more than your own "OUCH," its about right. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

I've also heard a lot about Grados and hum. Mine did not either with the P-4300 or the PL-610, both direct drive, so I am hoping for the best with the Rotel. However, the reports are from reliable sources. New stylus should be here any day, so I've got my fingers and toes crossed. My Grado Signature is the first cartridge my PAW immediately approved, so that is important. Anybody have a source for guidance on SME 3009 tweaks and adjustments? Sounds great, but I've a ways to go before it is "perfect." Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

OK, guys, I've done some measurements and some thinking. Big trouble ahead! But first... When I was a kid, I absolutely idolized Abe Lincoln. Thought he was as sinless as Christ, and brilliant as da Vinci. Then I read Frost and a few other objective biographers, and was pretty let down. Then, I got to thinking about how Abe overcame his human frailties to achieve one of the sublime moments in human history, and he now resides even higher in my esteem than before. What to do with PWK. I hung on every word he said when I visited him in the days of my youth. For 3 decades I considered anything contrary to the teachings of the Master to be bullshit not worthy of contemplation. However, being, in spite of my tendencey to hero worship, a fairly objective sort, I've spent a bit of time questioning the foundations of some of his reasoning, especially the notorious rubric number 7. Not only did he state this, it is in his 8 commandments as committed to an AES paper...not just in a marketing brochure. Heavy stuff. I am not going to go over it entirely, but some of you will have read my musings on the "why" of 7. PWK's belief in the corner horn as the ultimate, and only, trully honest loudspeaker. The unlikeliness of perfect rooms, the problems with the spouse and room decor if the speakers were on the short wall requiring seating in the middle, etc., resultling in his decision to require a center speaker. (My thinking is) He could not suggest the center channel a corrective measure to make up for the above "deficiencies," as that would somehow suggest the design was flawed. For a man like PWK, he had to square this with science, not marketing. So he drew on the Bell labs experiments and made it law. Your thoughts on this, HDBR, MH, all great experts, would interest me greatly. Now, my room has gotten a bit blown out of proportion. Actual speaker to speaker center is about 21 feet. Speaker center to apex of triangle (where my ears are) is about 16. Hardly equilateral, but not as bad as reported in the press. As I've said, imaging is much improved with the Cornwall, but since it is fed with a signal dirived from L+R after the power amp, it is slightly less pronounced than a more efficient La Scala, Belle, or Heresy might be. Jeff has a Heresy I hope he can bring over at some point to test this theory. As a music lover, suffice it to say I LOVE my system. Would I like to have better imaging? Sure. Would I like to have a Rockport? You bet. But none of that prevents the wondrous shivers and exultation that courses through my body when the music starts... Life is too short to be ruined by constant desire. More audiophiles should take a bit of time to read Lao Tzu. :-> Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless

Hmmmm.... PWK said it was a certainty with Klipschorns and developed several loudspeakers to deal with it. I am sure there are perfect locations where it might not be an issue, but building one of those is not an option. A center channel in accordance with the 7th Cardinal Rule is much easier. Works, too. Ol' PWK was no idiot. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless