RWMIN

I must say that I have never heard the RB 5 just the RF 3's and they were anything but great to me. As you pointed out with different acoustic perception, It's entirely subjective and depends on the person. For me though, I don't know how to give a better discription of how the RF 3's sounded to me when played on a Denon 5700 compared to the Legends. When I a-b them against the Legends the coloration seemed very clear but alone at first I liked them yet my wife didn't. That's when I a-b them against the Legends that I didn't even want to hear because of the price. That's when the imperfections really stood out to me. Perhaps I was lucky to have something to compare them with. As for me being in the minority, you may be correct as the Ref line has been a winner for Klipsch with tons of sales and I would have probably taken them home over everything else in the room if not for the KLF's. Perhaps someday you will have a chance to A-b them. If so I would like to have the chance to read your well written opinion as given above.

My Klf 10's did the same thing to me. All I had to do is buy a pair of Klf 30's. Perhaps your placement is a factor. BTW, I think the above post has it backwards. The Legends smoked the metalic, tinny, break up as soon as it gets loud RF 3's to me. But that's just my opinion.

I bought the ref rc3 center and I got to A-B the Legends against the RF 3's. I choose the Legends and returned the rc 3 for the Klf C7 once I learned it was available. I thought the Legends were much more accurate. The RF3's absolutely colored the music to me and the Legends didn't. At first I liked the RF3's open, detailed sound but after several trips to and from my local dealer, my wife and I both agreed on the Legends. The ref line broke up when pushed and the Legends played like they were just getting started. I liked that. As for the difference between the KLF 20's and 30's. The 30's have a more bass inclined tonal balance then the 20's (not as bright?). I have read that some prefer the 20's to the 30's because of the clarity from the 20's rather then the bass tonality from the 30's. I have also seen were people thought that the Legends were Bright, I don't think they are referring to the 30's but instead the 10's - 20's but to me the 30's are anything but bright. In fact I think the 30's kick a-- exspecially when mixed with the KLF C7 and Klf 10's in 5 ch stereo! VERY CLEAR and it actually "HAMMERS" it out when cranked with absolutely no sign of distress at any volume from my Denon 3300 (105 watts X 5). Others have referred to the 30's as being muddy compared to the 20's(dull, not so bright?). I found the 30's are very smooth to me. As BOBG once said to me, if you find yourself smiling when it's loud and at it's best, then your a 30's kind of guy. He actually said it better but that's close enough and I am a 30's kind of guy! Denon 3300 KLF 30's mains Klf C7 center Klf 10's A. rears Klf s5's B.rears Paradigm PW 2200 sub This message has been edited by RWMIN on 09-03-2001 at 10:46 PM

If you are going w/ the ref series then try to get a pair of RS7's. They should do a much better job then the RS3's for those mains. My wife is convinced that we do not need a sub and she is almost right. The Legends "Hammer" with the Denon in 5 ch stereo but you do need a sub to really experience the 5.1 on movies. It will make movies a real treat! Denon 3300 KLF 30's mains Klf 10's A.rears Klf C7 center Ksf S5's B.rears (movie surrounds) Paradigm PW 2200 sub

Try HSU's web site for more info. I see it advertised at audioreview.com alot for around $450ish. It looks like you can order it direct from HSU like the SVS. http://www.hsuresearch.com/ This message has been edited by RWMIN on 08-22-2001 at 11:25 PM

Boa The HGS 18" is the best in my book. I know of nothing in that price range ($3000) that can outperform it. The SVS CS Ultra is priced right making it my "best buy" between the two but I think the Velodyne is still king of the hill and it will be that way until someone can diliver "ultra clean", ultra loud 16 hz bass and a remote. Of course owning an HGS may have influenced me. I know TWO SVS CS Ultras would cost about the same (or less) and they would best the HGS above 20 HZ. It's just not the same having two to do it though. Yet, if someone did need that kind of output, I could never justify the price gap between TWO HGS 18's and TWO SVS CS Ultra's. Until I am "blown away" (like HornEd w/CS Ultras) I will be looking for more then I have w/my PW 2200 and more then what I had w/LF 10's and from my Velodyne HGS 12.

Oogins I would look at the HSU VTF-2 instead of the HGS 10. The HSU will deliver more bass then the HGS 12 for half the cost. I had an HGS 12 and it was a great sub but I HATED to hear a sub that expensive go "POP" every now and then because I asked too much of it. Mr Blorry There are some great subs for those speakers in that price range. Nousaine data: 1. HSU VTF-2 107.1 / 93~20 hz $500 2. Paradigm PW 2200 107.4 / 104~25 hz $800 list 112.8 db peaks 3. SVS CS 20-39 w/700 watt amp 109.5 / 20~91 / 25~105.8 $850 (dual subs w/amp $1250) 4. SVS CS Ultra W/1000 watt amp (APPROX) 112.5 / 20~98 / 25~110 $1575 (sub only $1099)

Horn and Boa are right on the money. I just sold a Velodyne HGS 12 and replaced it with a Paradigm Pw2200. I was, at first going to buy the SVS CS Ultra. I have been longing for the Velodyne HGS 18" for a long time now and suddenly SVS came out with a sub with similar performance and for a price that I could afford. Anyway, as when I bought my Velodyne HGS 12" I let my wife influence my decision to by the lesser expensive sub then what I wanted. If I would have bought the Velodyne HGS 15-18 as originally planned, I would be done with subs(so I think). Anyway the Paradigm PW 2200 is a better HT sub then the HGS 12 but it does not go as deep as the HGS 12". I am pleased with the PW 2200 as I was with the Velodyne HGS 12 but I am sure that I need yet an even bigger, better sub. I have owned 2 Klipsch Lf 10's, 1 Velodyne HGS 12, 1 JBL D112 (D.O.A.), and now a PW 2200. I got a great price on the PW 2200 from a local dealer so I jumped on it instead of buying the SVS CS Ultra. If you guys thought Seb was a bass freak, well just look at me. I MUST have more!!! I am pleased with the PW 2200 as I was W/ the Velodyne but I am by no means done. I have decided that no matter what, my next sub will be either a STRYKE 15", SVS CS Ultra, or my absolute favotite, VELODYNE HGS 18"(comes with a remote). I think that if you were to buy ANY of the three subs I have listed that you would own your one and only sub for years to come. If I could start over, I would do it with only one sub and it would be 1 of the 3 mentioned above because dual subs just don't (won't) do it for me. Sorry REL owners and lovers but I know nothing about them other then their great praise here on the board.

Gamer The SVS CS-ULTRA is a monster sub and it only cost $1099 shipped to your door. You will also have to buy a good amp for it unless you already have one. The amp SVS sells for that sub is an additional $475 delivered and is an awesome 1000 watts. Now you are talking serious output, near DD requirments, HornEd? Also for $850 you can get the standard SVS 20-39 CS w/700 watt amp and later you could add an additional sub only and your total out of pocket is like $1250 for 20~97 db / 31 hz 120.9 db(peaks of 124 db!) Tha ULTRA is said to produce about 0 - 1.5 db more then the dual 20-39 package in the 20-30 hz range and about 3 db less then a dual 20-39 (that's about 3 db more then one cs 20-39's above 30 hz or so). The Velodyne HGS 18 is also a major performance sub. In fact 16 hz output is Velodynes speciality (so to speak) with ULTRA LOW, LOW, LOW distortion. They are about $2500 (list $3000). Pmburnet This info came from Tom Vodhanel. He is the V in SVS subwoofers. He is the one with the knowledge of bass. As for me, I just try to share info printed or seen from actual people who KNOW what they are talking about. Anyway, if you do a search in the sub section of this board you will find the data you are looking for. That reveiw and a lot more were posted on 6-12-2001. The topic was: "SW15 subs-The best?" There was also another similar "list" of subs and there specs listed, again by Tom Vodhanel, on 12-19-2000 in the subwoofer section, the topic was: "Nousaine subwoofer data-listing" I printed out the data and I often use them for reference. I would suggest doing the same. This message has been edited by RWMIN on 08-08-2001 at 10:52 PM

It seems that you do have it hooked up correctly. You want ONE in (via Y adapter) to the LFE AND one to either the R or L input. The R OR L inputs are probably summed internally and they are for bass during music. The LFE is specifically for the L.F.E. (low freq. effects) during movies. You do want a Y adapter as T2K pointed out and it does need to go to BOTH LFE AND L or R input.

WOW, Good choices!

Gamer I have some sub specs here that may help out. I will use the info I have on the JBL D112 as it may be similar to your current model's specs. Corner loaded, 2 meter mic, 10 THD. JBL D112 - 105.3 / 25~95 Klipsch KSW 12 - 104.9 / 25~90 Klipsch KSW 300 - 106 / 25~92 All of the above reveiws were done by the same reveiwer, Tom Nousaine. As you can see if your JBL PSW 12 specs are similar to the JBL 12" D112 sub then you would actually loose some output by switching from your sub to the one you mentioned. In fact it would take TWO KSW 12's to produce the output of the JBL at 25 hz. I think T2K has a good point, spend the money on a good quality sub and be happier in the long run. I am on my 4th sub and I am still longing for yet another. If you want Klipsch, wait for the new line. They claim they are GOOD ones. We will see.

I have owned 2 Klipsch LF 10's, 1 Velodyne HGS 12 and I currently own a Paradigm PW 2200. Out of the 3 subs you have listed, I choose the PW 2200. I actully have a print out with some specs (but I can't find it right now???) anyway the PW2200 is very near the top of that list in performance. I can say that the PW 2200 has very good music performance and SUPERB movie performance. I picked the Paradigm over an SVS myself only because my local dealer MIS-QUOTED me at $599. How could I not buy it at that price? Although SVS is a newer company I wouldn't overlook them by anymeans. The Paradigm is great but I still want even more. My two subs of choice would be a VELODYNE HGS 18 $2500ish and an SVS CS-ULTRA w/1000 watt amp $1575 delivered. That is if money wasn't a big consideration.

I should have said that the KSF S5 "was" the best match to the KLF 10's because Klipsch has said that the new surrounds are the best for the Legend line. I wonder if they are considered the best of all previous and current models? I can't imagine anything from the reference line being a better timbre match but this new line is supposed to be very good. I wonder if they are "better" rears then previous models because of their higher efficiency rating? Sorry I can't offer any info on the SS1 other then if their efficiency isn't much different then the other rears mentioned, keep'em. The differences may not be worth the change. As stated above a good warm receiver is a great idea but it just might not be the end of it either with the KLF 10's. I think that with any of the receivers listed you will find high quality. It will come down to your very own personal preference as to which is best for you. There are a lot of good receivers out these days, I hope you get a chance to evaluate some of them.

When I bought my KLF 10's the paperwork that came with them showed the KSF S5 for the best rears on the KLF 10. The KSP S6 where actually the best (according to my paperwork) surrounds for the KLF 20 and 30. I started out with the 10's as mains and I liked them for short periods of listening as they fatigued me. I also started with a Yamaha (lower model 795 or something) and replaced it for a Denon 3300. The Denon was a nice improvement but the KLF 10's still fatigued me. I didn't really think they were bright but after short periods of listening (moderate-loud) I was certainly ready to turn them down. I later added a pair of KLF 30's for the fronts and I put the KLF 10's in the rear for stereo (A. rear ch.) with the KSF S5 (B. rear ch.) Anyway the 30 are a much smoother speaker. It took them to tame the 10's for me. In regards to the rears, I prefer the 10's for music and movies. The S5's are at +5 db just to keep up with the mains. The 10's provide a much LARGER sound feild then the surrounds but the surrounds are nice for the plain flying over your head effect as they are wall mounted. Efficiency may not be a problem with the new S7 or the more efficient S6 but again the KSF S5 is the best timbre match to the KLF 10's. I know that if you could swing a pair of KLF 20's or 30's for mains you would be thrilled. I also have a liking for Denon, Marantz and Yamaha in that order. I think the 5 and 7 ch stereo is awesome with a choice of A. rears for music and B. rears for movies on the Denons. JMO and I hope it helps.

No DSP for me. Sometimes I listen to 2 ch stereo and direct but mostly I really like 5 ch stereo. For me there's nothing better then 5 Legends hammering away in stereo. This message has been edited by RWMIN on 08-03-2001 at 08:30 PM

I agree W/ D2000 We all enjoy HornEds information and woderful opinions. He writes them quite well. I wish I was able to convey my thoughts as adaquatly as he does. Horn, Ask T2K about the left feild post I through at him not long ago. Talk about being off topic. \ As for SVS Yout right on regarding TV. I think that's part of the reason so many people want to (and do) buy from him. His knowledge and the mannor that he represents it and himself is SUPERB!

According to TV the PW 2200 has been RE-REVIEWED and the current specs are correct at 84 db 20 hz. That is really some change in performance. I will see if I can return the PW 2200 as 84 DB 20 HZ just doesn't do it when the SVS can do a lot more (91 @ 20) for just a couple hundred more then I have already spent.

WOW, that's some difference TV. I will be seeing about returning my PW 2200 for the SVS for sure!

Perhaps TV is posting some updated information and the past review is moot. If that's the case then please let me know TV as my PW2200 will be returned in no time for a better sub, SVS 20-39 or CS-ultra! HornEd I get the impression that somehow I have made you feel like I don't think the SVS is as good as it is. The only thing I have ever done regarding SVS, Paradigm and Velodyne was post info on experience or by specification only as I have not had the pleasure to experience an SVS first hand but I have experienced the Velodyne HGS 12, Klipsch LF 10's and now the Paradigm PW 2200. Again HORNED I have NEVER compared the PW 2200 to a SVS CS-ULTRA! The are in a different league all together BUT the PW2200 DOES COMPARE to the SVS CS 20-39 in SPECS! NOW I have given the best praise I know of regarding the CS Ultra by comparing it to the incredible HGS 18. In fact a single SVS CS-Ultra can produce the same and maybe just slightly MORE output then the HGS 18 and it costs HALF as much $1575 VS $3000! Now if you want to spend as much on a pair of SVS CS-Ultra as on ONE Velodyne HGS 18" you can get as much bass as more then 2 HGS 18" at the same price point. Also the SVS is doing this with only a 12" WOOFER compared to the Vel w/an 18" woofer and a more powerful amp! Is this a clear enough praise for SVS? For the PW2200 and the SVS CS 20-31 given the actual specs ARE so close the price of $599 for the PW and the price of $850 for the SVS made the 0-2 DB advantage of the SVS is not worthy of my extra $250! The subs DO IN FACT have the same 20 HZ output! (A more current review put the PW 2200 @84 DB 20 HZ, down from a previous review of 91 @ 20 hz, both reviews are from Nousaine) I did compare the PW 2200's OUTPUT to that of a Velodyne HGS 15". Praise be to Paradigm for being able to compare to the output of the HGS 15" with their $800 12" sub! NOW, as previously stated elsewhere, If I had to pay full price for the PW2200 ($800 plus tax) I would have a DO recommend to others that they buy the sub with more BANG, (a whopping 0-2 db 20 hz and up)THE SVS CS 20-39 @$850 delivered! Is the PW2200 "my great sub", H*** NO. Is it the best sub for less then $1000, it is surely one of few IN THAT PRICE RANGE WITH THAT KIND OF BASS!!! Forgive me for trying to cover a price range as one was never given. As you may clearly see, now that I parted the above post, I recommended the $1575 CS-Ultra over the $2500-$3000 Velodyne HGS 18". CLEAR? This message has been edited by RWMIN on 08-01-2001 at 10:56 PM

TV has made a mistake regarding the output at 20 HZ with the PW 2200. He originally posted the data on 12-19-2000 (I printed it out). TV's current data is either a typo, mistake or a different review. The data listed above by HornEd is pretty much a quote from TV from another thread regarding the 2200 20 hz output. The correct output of the Paradigm PW2200 "WAS" (as referred to by me) 107.4 / 20HZ 91 (the same as the 20-39 cs @ 20 HZ) TV is using Tom Nousaines data. Mr. Nousaines review and specs listed above can be read by all as they are currently posted at Paradigm's web site in a review done for "Sound and Vision" by "NOUSAINE". http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/PReviewsIndex.html This message has been edited by RWMIN on 07-29-2001 at 10:00 PM

At Paradigms web site (Nousaines data from the review) and from a previous post from you (TV), the Paradigm is shown with an output of 91 DB at 20 HZ. TV initially posted the info on 12-19-2000 PW 2200 - 107.4 / 20 hz 91 This info is from Tom Nousaines review for Sound and Vision and it is posted at the Paradigm web site. The current info at 84 db 20 hz is a mistake, typo? http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/PReviewsIndex.html This message has been edited by RWMIN on 07-29-2001 at 07:01 PM

I have to agree with the Velodyne HGS subs. I just sold an HGS 12 and I liked it alot but it has been replaced with a Paradigm PW2200 and I like that one even more and it was less then half as much. Simply put if you want to look at the terrific Velodyne go for the HGS 15" or 18". The Paradigm Pw2200 ($800 list)has the same output above 20 HZ as the HGS 15 and some great peaks too. Now for some sub of subs 1. $1575 SVS CS-Ultra with a 1000 watt amp or 2. $2500-$3000?? Velodyne HGS 18" with a peak of 3000 watts. I only put the Velodyne as 2nd due to price even though the Ultra should out do the Vel in output by a slight margin. Bang for buck the PW2200 can't be outperformed for the dollar from anyone as far as I have seen. I just bought one from a local dealer for $599 brand new! If you must pay list for the Paradigm then you might also look at the SVS 20-31 w/700 watt amp $850 delivered and it does have more output then the 2200 but only by a 1db or 2 across the board. This message has been edited by RWMIN on 07-29-2001 at 06:36 PM

I would do have to agree with Cjett. Email Tom at SVS and ask. He will let the know. I don't think that particular sub would best the PW2200 at 20-25. In fact the 20-31 w/300 watts has the same 20 hz output and just slightly more from 25 and up.

Thanks HornEd I have to say that SVS in general is a cut above the rest. I do yearn (ACHE) for the Very sub that you own, no question about it! I really do wish that the extra cash for the Ultra wasn't a problem. If it were ALL my decision (and if my wife didn't have my credit card)I would have ordered that sub the very moment I finished reading about it at SVS's web site. I feel like I am missing out on something great by not having one. Enjoy it Horn!