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Don't need no Monsanto engineer Maron to lower resonance in paper cone driver. A little brake fluid lightly brushed on will do nicely, lowering resonance as it loosens up the paper. The resonance will keep right on dropping until paper disintegrates, LOL

It is Male Singing on some lower male voices. On a grapcic eq, the 180 hz band has the most effect on it in a 7 band wide q graphjic eq

Was George Ashworth a WW 2 General ? Who was he, and Bob Smith, and what is Bob Smith Horn Route ? I was not alive until 1954/

But listen real good Cut Throat, there is that "folded horn sound" on male speech and voices. Unless you run your midragne horns level way up, then you get a thin sound. Maybe you are just used to it, having had the Belles and all ? If you can live with it, it's all good. The folded horn has SO much to offer.

I BET they sound awesome! I heard that Fostex wooden horn at CES way back in the 80's and was just mesmerized by it. What are the other drivers ?

If you read the previous post, and the information I posted about what Dr Edgar said, you might have the same thoughts I am having. Since Edgar makes straight horns, the dustcap is exposed to the world. He has measured resonances coming off the dustcap of many drivers. His solution is to glue a big piece of felt over the dustcap to absorb these resonances. So, in a folded horn, WHY not do the same thing ? he says these resonances "get lost" in the folds of a bass horn. Maybe so, but MY ears "find em" again as they leave the horn.

I have never heard an Edgar Horn, but have owned 3 pairs of Klipschorns, and a pair of SpeakerLab SK Corner Horns. IME, the folded horn is colored and woody sounding. I love the dynamics, power, etc, but the coloration bugs me. I MUCH prefer a Model 19 or VOTT even. The Model 19, while not "perfect" is a lot more free of this coloration, and I think has a beter midrange then the Klipschorn.

That is quite a slope! I owned JSE Infinite Slope speakers back in the 80's that used this approach. I was hoping someone would chime in and identify WHAT this coloration is, what frequency is it occurring at, and WHY is it occurring. Here is what Bruce Edgar says about some horns. Bass horns have their own resonance problems. Typically, a well-designed bass horn that can go down to 35 Hz will have a total volume of 20 cu.ft. or more. A company's marketing department will say that it can't sell a big speaker like it. Moreover, the marketers say, "Keep the 35 Hz flare but make it smaller." So the horn length is truncated to make it smaller. The net result is long folded slowly expanding tube that sounds more like a resonant tuba than a wide band bass horn. The response plot looks as a series of harmonically related resonant peaks And, from another interview - It turns out that lead guitar speakers, such as the EVM 15L, have mass rolloff frequencies close to 400 Hertz. For a bass horn to match up with a midrange horn, it has to go up that high. Many commercial bass horns haven't gone up that high. People tried to use speakers that were designed for bass reflex and then put in a lower midrange horn. The old University Classic horn used a 15-inch, which rolled off around 200 Hertz, and a Cobraflex 250-Hertz lower midrange horn that had many colorations. Electrovoice also used a reflex PA horn to bridge the difference. Klipsch tried a variety of drivers, but the Klipschorn always had a problem of extending the upper bass horn response. At one point they went to a constricted throat, which they still use, and that helped a little bit. But I investigated the constricted throat in a Speaker Builder article and found that all it really did was change the standing wave pattern. It didn't really improve the upper bass response Let's talk about straight horns versus folded horns. I have built both. In the beginning, I thought that the secret of designing a good horn was to come up with the optimum folding configuration, but after a number of experiments with folded horns and straight horns, straight horns sounded the best, especially for the upper frequencies. The higher frequencies, above a couple of hundred Hertz, don't like folds. They change phase, have reflections, and have an irregular response structure due to reflections. There's a myriad of problems, but if you have a straight horn, the sound is cleaner. You have an unobstructed wave front that is not bent out of shape coming out of the horn. The negative side of straight bass horns is that the dust cover of the speaker can see the outside world. In a long folded horn, the high frequency sounds coming off the dust cover are lost in the folds. There are high-Q resonances due to the breakup in the dust cover. The dust cover on a 15-inch Electrovoice is four inches in diameter. The high frequencies that radiate off the dust cover are much above the mass rolloff, but they can still be pretty significant. Gluing a big thick felt pad to the dust cover will damp out a good deal of the peaks. The same phenomenon happens when you have a midrange cone driver in a midrange horn. The round button dust cover produces little spikes running well above 5 kHz.

MAYBE an extreme slope ? But I did try my Rane 24 db electronic on some Klipschorns, no luck, unless I dialed the crossover down real low. Then I got a big hole in the response. I just do not see any way to allow a folded horn to play all the way up to 400hz w/o serious coloration. I was reading Bruce Edgars thought on this, something about a Tuba ?

Hey, we are talking absolutes here, and no speaker is perfect. The Klipschorn has many strengths, but the woody sound is it's achilles heel. Maybe it is time for Klipsch to recognize the problem, and do something about it ? From what I hear, it is caused by having the bass horn play clear up to 400K Why not think aout using a different midrange horn/driver to play lower ?

Grandma was all Italian Maron, and a very devout Catholic who attended Mass more then once a week. She was a volunteer down at the Church, and good friends with several Catholic Nuns. Nuns are into QUIET, except when they are teaching school, or beating your azz. ANY loud noises drove Grandma nuts. As far as turning the Corner Horns around, good idea. Maybe that will get rid of the mid bass hump ? Hey Maron, got an idea I wanted to ask you about ? Why not place some Fiberglass in between the horn and Tailboard. Is that called the mouth of the horn ? Maybe the fiberglass in the right amount can act as a filter, get rid of that woody sound ? Will That work ?

I feel your pain Bruce. I lost my Grandma, she had Altzhimers. She was "gone" for years, and didn't even know me her last years of life, though I was her favorite Grandchild. Her picture sits proudly on the mantle, and I swear I can still hear her saying "Stop making all that racket".

Maron, after 37 years, she might argue that point. Lynn is much, much older than me. I was a child when she................well, today law forbids such things. (in most states) 37 years ago I focused on a pair. Today, the focal point is her pair of golden ears. I swear, I can change a cap and she asks "what's different"? Critical Bi%&h! Big smile. tc Edit: Man, if she ever reads some of this stuff....... They DO hear better then us I think. My girlfriend, upon hearing my old Klipschorns asked "Why Does the TV News Guy Sound Like He Has A Chest Cold" ? I have several pairs of speakers, and my girlfriend does not live with me. Of all my speakers, she likes the B&W Matrix 801's the best, calling them 'The Ugly Speakers From England" Her name is Eileen O' Riordan, full blooded Irish, she dislikes most things British. At first, she liked the idea of the Corner Horns because I sold her on the fact they were "Out Of The Way".

I know Paul did not like BS claims. I remember meeting him in Detroit at Cobo Hall. He was wearing a BS Button, as were all his employees.

Absolutely! She saw the dual Luxman M 117's and knew she had a keeper!

Hartley was a different company for sure. They made complete speaker systems with air column midranges, or something like that. I am only familiar with that big 24 inch driver. Why did PWK take them to task ?

an Irish Girl was sitting by a swimming pool. I asked her what she was doing there ? Her answer "Patty O' Furniture"

In Seattle, a friend used his fireplace as an enclosure for the big Hartley. He sealed his chimney/fireplace. The big hartley barely moved, yet it flutttered pants legs. Most impressive!

I used to breed Dobermans, and of course, MY Dogs were the best Maron. Unfortunately, I overlooked what other breeders had accomplished. It is called being Kennel Blind. PWK was a great man, for sure. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us. There is much to still be discovered and applied. I just got my Stereophile, and will look for the article.

It really is a shame Paul is not with us any longer. He truly was a pioneer, and is missed. But Maron, times have changed, new Guru's have come onto the scene, people like Bill Fitzmaurice and Tom Danley. I have been reading their thought on reactance annulling. There is a program called Hornresponse I think. I wish I knew how to use it. According to Hornresponse, below the low frequency cut off of the horn, the rear chamber determines response. If you port the rear chamber, it rolls off like a ported box at 24 db octave. But, if you leave it sealed, it rolls off like a sealed box, at 12 db. You are correct Maron from what I read. IF the woofer is carefully chosen, and the horn well designed, the two chambers should null perfectly. Maximum efficiency takes place in this condition. BUT, Hornresponse shows that if you will give up a little efficiency, often lower bass can result by playing with the rear chamber. This is JUST what I read, and may be total BS ? Maybe someone else will chime in with another viewpoint ?

Yeah, right ..... Hey Duke, Sold The JBL L 7's, the VMPS RM 40's, and the Von Schweikert VR 4 JR's since we last talked. Picked up some Polk SRS 2's and some Infinity Preluder PFR's, and of course the SpeakerLab SK's. It is my opinion you need to find a Luxman M 117 amp for the L 7's, it was by far the best amp on them. Oh, also sold some SansuiSP 5500X Kabuki Speakers too ...................... ...........It is my opinion you need to find a Luxman M 117 amp for the L 7's, it was by far the best amp on them.............. And ya know, a pair of them can even push the old Cornwall bins[]. tc Hey, that ain't no fair, you got two of em. I had a hard enough time finding ONE. You dew be slammin, and sounding good doin it. I love my Luxman M 117 . I am always on the lookout for Cornwall 2's locally.' DJK suggested them, and he was right about the old Forte's IMO. I liked the old Forte's a lot, just too small physically for my room. They looked "lost" in here. How did you find out about the Luxman M 117's ? Please do not tell anyone till I find another one ?

"And behold, they melted down all their Gold and made a new God, a Golden Calf while Moses was up on the Mountain" So, what you are saying is this "If PWK were here, he would not approve" ? Now Maron, let's look at a possibility ? Is it not at least possible that SpeakerLab took the Dacron Stuffing effect into account when they made their own woofer for the Klipsch Copy ? The other day Marion I made me some coffee to wake up. I was out of sugar, so I used some Honey instead. The objective was to get the coffee sweet, and the Honey did the trick. Could it be possible that SpeakerLab intentionally made their woofer parameters " slightly wrong" with the intention of having it "made right" in a tunable fashion by the addition of Dacron ? My old VMPS speakers come over damped from the factory. They have a passive radiator with a mass of putty on them. You simply remove a small amount of the putty until bass is right sounding. I have not actually seen the SpeakerLab SK bass bin plans. But some who have claim it says to use Dacron, and even gives an amount. Now I realize that the owners of SpeakerLab were NOT PWK. But they were audiophiles, and electrical engineers too. Pat Snyder worked at Boeing as an engineer, and Dave Grabner owns Bohlender Grabner today. I am having a difficult time with this Marion. I simply can't imagine a pair of bright young music loving engineers taking the time to copy the Klipsch Patent, and making their own woofers and Horns, yet screwing everything up by adding stuffing to what they copied ? COULD it be they actually improved a little on Pauls design, and that is why he hated them so much ? Could it be he had a "dam, why didn't I think of that moment" when he saw the SpeakerLab SK ? Angled woofer chambers are fine, but they are still bare naked wood with no stuffing to absorb the sound. Both the Klipschorn and SpeakerLab SK woofers are playing well up into the midrange, so why not have some damping material in the rear chamber to reduce coloration ? Lets say the design calls for a 1 cu ft rear chamber, ok ? Why not make the chamber physically .8 cu ft and stuff the shit out of it instead ? This way the chamber appears to be 1 cu ft, and you reduce coloration too ? Am I missing something ? .

Yeah, right ..... Hey Duke, Sold The JBL L 7's, the VMPS RM 40's, and the Von Schweikert VR 4 JR's since we last talked. Picked up some Polk SRS 2's and some Infinity Preluder PFR's, and of course the SpeakerLab SK's. It is my opinion you need to find a Luxman M 117 amp for the L 7's, it was by far the best amp on them. Oh, also sold some SansuiSP 5500X Kabuki Speakers too

You put a port on the access door, and all the air will vent out of the compression chamber......."Compression" "Air spring"...think about it. I would guess that the air wont' properly flow into the horn/wall flare interface. Maybe lost bass, efficiency.....you lose bass efficiency, and the mid and top-end will start to sound hot. It would be the same thing as drilling a big 3 inch hole in the center of your Speakerlab K. All the air would go out the hole, not the horn. Dunno about felt under compression drivers....damping? From the backwave? I have a Lascala project going. I cobbled them together with parts on hand until I can get the right parts. I was using a pair of Magnavox 8 ohm 15" woofers. Not optimum with too high a fs, and too small a magnets, but I had to try it. It was too objectionable, (boomy, no low extension, one note kinda sound) so they are getting sanded now. But with one I put about a half-pound of polyfil in the doghouse, just to see. The 8 ohm drivers are too inefficient as it is, the polyfil made it even a bit more inefficient. Not much, but noticed. It did seem to smooth out the bass I geuss, but it also seemed to dampen the higher frequency range of the bass. I noticed no lower extension of bass from the polyfil. Maybe I'll try it again with the K33 replacement...who knows... I think keeping the compression chamber sealed as much as possible like PWK mentions, is the best option. He designed the things. But I keep reading stuff like this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-25493.html and this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7252176.html that make me wonder ? Getting back on topic regarding SpeakerLab, one must wonder if the amount of the stuffing for the rear chamber was taken into account when they designed their woofers ? Is it not possible they purposely designed their woofers to work in the Klipsch Folded Horn with stuffing ? IME, a stuffed chamber has some advantages over an unstuffed one, like keeping sound from re radiating through the cone.

Yeah, I saw that. No comparasion to my Speakerlab SK's, that's for sure. I do not know WHAT those are ? Even the SpeakerLab K's had a crossover with capacitors. Those could be Speaker FACTORY clones ? SpeakerLab was quite successful in it;s day. I know, I lived in Seattle back in SpeakerLab's heyday. A copy of Speakerlab called Speaker Factory popped up. They did offer a folded horn speaker.