Rudy81

Another amp to consider is the new Parasound HALO line. I have the A-52 at 125 WPC which is more than enough for me. The A-51 has 225 WPC and may be had in your price range. You can see the specs at www.parasound.com. If you are interested in the line, let me know and I can put you in touch with my Parasound rep.

---------------- On 11/13/2003 5:44:36 PM Rob P wrote: Rudy... Where are you? I am between Dallas and Fort Worth, Texas and am driving my Klipschorns with tubes. You wouldn be welcome to come take a listen!---------------- Rob: I live pretty close to you. I would love to hear your system. It has been about 18 years since I hear a pair of Khorns. I almost don't want to again....I know I'll want some, and I can't fit those monsters in my HT, I already measured. I will PM you later and maybe I can swing by some time for a listen. Thank you for offering.

---------------- On 11/13/2003 7:58:09 PM Q-Man wrote: Rudy, I don't know of anyone using tubes in their home theater set up. I wouldn't go there. Don't feel that you have to change tweeters and such with your Heritage speakers. Just be thankful that you have Belles and a LaScala center. To me bass horns is where it's at. If you don't have bass horns, you don't have speakers. The LaScala center makes a big difference as you found out. I thing changing to a LaScala center was a major improvement in my home theater experience. I'm just glad to see you begining to experiment a little. ---------------- Q-Man: The La Scala was certainly an improvement in overall speaker matching. I had a very nice pair of Chorus II's as center before, but the timbre differance was very noticeable. I'll tell you what, the bass the Belles and La Scala put out is simply awesome. I supplement the lower end with the SVS for movies and it is a very nice complement to the front 3. I now have the speakers pretty well matched. I just need to get the highs matched up a little better.

---------------- On 11/13/2003 12:22:43 PM Q-Man wrote: Rudy, Didn't your mother ever teach you not to hang out in a gang? This Forum is bad news and will lead you down the evil path of which there is no return. I was perfectly happy with my pair of LaScalas untill I decided to get into home theater and found this Forum. But it has been fun. John is right about the JBL 2404H tweeter. This mod is one of those night and day ones. The half dozen or so people that I let listen while I A/B stuff like this tweeter. When we listened to an A/B with a stock Klipschorn and one with the 290/311 and 2404H the tweeter was the first thing they all commented on. Just like you are doing with the ALK network and K77. There is no end, it's like a curse. Just when you think you have it right you discover something elce and your starting over again. ---------------- There is no return, that is for sure. As a relative novice in this arena, I can make one observation. No two people hear things exactly the same. Good thing, or else there would only be one manufacturer producing the perfect speaker, the perfect wire and connectors, the perfect amp etc. What fun would that be. Hey, some people swear by BOSE cubes and a sub. For the time being, I will be happy with a good timbre matched HT system. I have been able to put together, what is for me, a nice Heritage HT system. I know many will look at my SS pre/pro and amps and think I have no clue how good it would sound with some good old tubes. Perhaps it is a good thing I have never heard tubes with my system. I really don't want to go down that evil path right now. So far, I don't know anyone locally that uses tubes and Klipsch. In the mean time, I'm having a great time learning and listening!

Al: I finally decided to put the questions in my mind to rest and do the only logical thing, put one of the ALK networks on a La Scala and do some comparissons. One La Scala got the ALK. One La Scala kept the AL-3. One Belle kept the other ALK. Results: The Belle and La Scala with the AL-3: noticeable differance in the tweeter section. The Belle (ALK) has a slightly louderand more "open" tweeter. The Belle and La Scala with the ALK: These two sounded identical. I had previously set the taps to 4-0 and they have stayed there. The squawkers sound very much the same. The tweeters sounded exactly the same. One La Scala with AL-3 vs. La Scala with ALK: Same differance in the tweeter section, the ALK slightly louder and more open. Of course, my unscientific tests can be biased since I knew which speaker had which network. The biggest and most obvious differance in the two networks turns out to be in the tweeter section. That is clearly audible. Conclusion: My '93 La Scala and '88 Belles with the same networks are extremely close to each other. The Z bracket differance does not seem to make much of an impact on music. There is a very notable differance in the tweeter section of the networks. The ALK's are more "open" and "airy" than the stock AL-3. The mid section is very close in both models with the ALK's set to 4-0. Seems I will just have to get a third ALK for my center channel La Scala.

Yes, that is the layout I have on the '88 Belles. The '93 La Scala does not sport the Z brackets and therefore is mounted on the inside of the baffle. I think I may be stuck with the current arrangement until I start truly customizing my speakers. The problem with hanging out in this forum is that the longer you hang out, the more expensive it gets! You sure learn a lot though! Thanks for all your help guys.

---------------- On 11/12/2003 9:52:28 PM John Warren wrote: Now Rudy, IF you want to REALLY hear a difference, one that will make your wife (or significant other) take notice get a pair of wire cutters, "snip" both the tweeter leads and forget that the T35 ever existed. Take the $550 you plan on spending on new netwroks and go out and get yourself a pair of JBL 2404H tweeters (www.usspeaker.com). When my wife heard these "any an all" resistance to subsequent "hi-end" purchases seemed to fade away. It was the best damned $550 I ever spent. ---------------- John: Great! Now you want me to modify my tweeters. Fortunately, I have a terrific wife. In the last year she has allowed me to get a pair of Hereseys, Forte II's, Chorus II's, La Scalas, a Sharp Z9000 projector, all my HALO gear, a pair of ALk's and the entire interior for OUR HT. Of course, I am now on the hook for the piano room furnishings. Just for the sake of argument....how would one mount those JBL tweeters in the Belles and La Scala without trashing the cabinets??? I have studied what AL K did with his Belles and might some day try to do something similar. However, in the world of modifying Klipsch speakers I'm still in kindergarten.

Al: Never mind, why wait until tomorrow when I can run up there and look. Once again you prove that you are a wealth of information. Here is what I found. The '88 Belles have the K77M mounted with black Z brackets that seem to put the tweeter flush with the OUTSIDE or exterior of the speaker cabinet. The '93 La Scala has the K77M mounted flush with the INSIDE of the cabinet, no Z bracket on that tweeter. Perhaps that 3/4' tunnel is making a noticeable and very audible difference. Any ideas or suggestions??? The La Scala tweeter opening on the cabinet is obviously not large enough to accept the entire tweeter housing, so I don't think I could add Z brackets to it without enlarging the opening. I would hate to take a saw to the speaker. I guess an option may be to replace the Belle Z bracket with a flat backet and in effect recess the tweeter flush with the back of the cabinet opening. However, I like the Belle tweeter sound so much more than the La Scala. The reason why I have been struggling to get as good a match as possible is that the La Scala serves as my center channel and the closer I can match the timbre to my Belles the better.

Al: Thank you. I will look at the tweeters of the Belle and La Scala closely tomorrow and report back. The Belles are '88 vintage and the La Scalas are '93's. If in fact the Z brackets are an issue, can they be reversed or removed? In other works, can the tweeters all be made the same, short of buying new tweeters?

---------------- On 11/12/2003 9:15:27 PM Q-Man wrote: The tweeter on the Belle should sound a little cleaner making it even sound louder. The ALK does more to open up the tweeter then any other network. I don't think there is anything wrong with your LaScala tweeter. On the other hand, I have had a few problems with them. One thing that leads to trouble is where the female disconects hook up to the tweeters. See if the male disconects on the tweeter rotate, they should not move. Movement will eventually cause the very thin diaphragm wire to break or short out. I had a pair that would work fine in one position and nothing in the other. While in use they would go on and off do to the speaker vibrations. I now check all mine, if they move I super glue or epoxy them in place. This will save you from having to replace diaphragms in the furture. I also had tweeters about 2dB down because of oxidized monster cable and loose disconects because of the oxidation. ---------------- Q-Man: That's IT!!!! I have not been able to adequately describe what I was hearing, but this is it precisely. The Belle tweeters sound cleaner and in my opinion are louder!!!! When I listened to both La Scalas by themselves, it is not very noticeable, although they sound more "constricted" in the high range than do my Belles. This gives the Belles a much more "airy" sound. It makes the soundstage seem larger and more enveloping. When I compare the La Scala with a Belle, the tweeter difference is VERY evident. I will check the items you mentioned, although I do not have any problems with intermittent operation or other anomaly. It was simply a different sound between the two, although they are identical tweeters. I will have to keep an eye out for a used ALK or just order another one from Al. Thanks for all your help. Your comments have helped me to properly set things up as much as I can. My thanks also to Al K, who has also helped immensely.

Q-Man: Yes, less attenuation was an almost perfect match for the La Scala. Al K confirmed the setting I came up with as the closest to the LaS. The only differance I note now is in the tweeter section. Needless to say, there are differcances in the balancing networks that may be causing that issue, or they may be something amiss with the tweeter. Once I get the other La Scala worked on, I'll try it and see how it fares.

Dave47: Extremely nice deal!!! I thought I got a good deal on mine at $911.00. I am no expert on refinishing them, but there are many threads around here to help you. You won't be short of help here. What are the serial numbers on those? Run a search on the site for veneer and you will find lots of ideas. Enjoy them.

I decided to spend some time today messing around with the ALK tap settings to see if I could get the sound closer to that of my La Scala center. I originally had the ALK taps set to 4-X, near the "normal" setting. I increased the attenuation and found that I was getting farther from the sound produced by the La Scala. I tried decreasing the attenuation, fearing I would make the mids too harsh, and found that the 4-0 setting is really close to the La Scala sound. Not only that, I found the 4-0 setting very pleasing for simple 2-ch music using the Belles only. Not bright at all. I'm sure my room acoustics makes my results different than anyone else's, but I was glad to have the flexibility the ALK's provide to change the attenuation easily. The ALK's and AL-3 are very close in sound and performance from what I can hear.

Q-Man: There is most definately a differance between the Belle and La Scala. To be honest, I don't know if it is in the mid range or tweeter, but I can hear the differance when using pink noise to balance the speakers for HT use. Mind you, the differance is very minor, but it is there. Interestingly, the Belles and La Scala that I have have the same drivers in them. The only differances are the crossovers, horn and cabinet. When I get some time I might pull one of my ALk's out of my Belles and put it in a La Scala and compare the balancing networks. Thank you for your input.

Q-Man: Thanks for the response. I had actually read that discussion earlier today. I noted that you did use the AK-3 with the Khorn and I posted this message wondering if anyone had done a true AL-3 to ALK comparrison. For the time being, I think my AL-3 will be just fine. However, way in the back of my mind, having 3 ALK's seems like the optimum solution.

Has anyone swapped their AL-3 crossover for an ALK? I am curious as to how much differance you heard if you did? I have searched the forums, but can't seem to find that comparrison listed. The reason for my question is that I have a set of Belles with ALK's and a new La Scala as my center channel with an AL-3.

Merk: Glad to hear you are enjoying the Chorus II's. I knew you would. This repair will be nothing like your damage. This is all minor cabinet work. It'll give me something to do.

Mike: I agree with BobG. I think it will be just fine as is. I have a dedicated 20Amp circuit to my media room, nothing I had done, it just turned out that way when I purchased the house. I'm sure it does not have any special grounding. I have not had any ground loop problems and ever since going to the unbalanced HALO outputs, I have absolutely no noise in the system. Is there any way you can temporarily set up part of your system and take a listern?

In essensce, what the chart shows you is that in order to increase your output by 3dB's, you need to double the power. So, if your amp is maxed out at 113dB's, you are not going to get to 116 dB's without doubling the amp power. Frankly, with the layout that you have, I don't see how you are going to get much more. Do you really need more, 113dB's is extremely loud. Your ears could take a beating too, and those are next to impossible to fix one you damage them.

Many thanks to all of you. When I get done I will post the results. BTW, Klipsch was good enough to tell me how t best match the paint. In my case, I gave them the year and model and they told me what color to request at a paint store.

Also, remember the SPL vs. amp power relationship.

Orange Peel: Darn, how big is your room? I wasn't taking measurements when we listened to Finding Nemo. When the tapping on the glass started or the submarine slid off the ledge, we were shaking in our seats. I only have one SVS sub and I can't imagine having more. My room is about 27x14. Besides, you are getting tremendous sound pressure levels anyway. Also, with three subs, if they are not all perfectly in phase, you are defeating the purpose of getting max bass.

Michael: Thank you. I will be trying those ideas as soon as I finish some other more pressing projects. You are correct that matching the gloss will be the difficult part. I have been looking at the veneer items at HD and Lowe's. They have a small roll of veneer that is pre-glued and you use an iron to attach it. Has anyone used this? I am afraid putting an iron to the patch might damage the surrounding area of the cabinet. Is it better to just go the contact cement route?

Well, as I feared, Craters and Freighter won't admit to any damage. They just keep giving me the continuous run around and point fingers at everyone else. If anyone needs to ship speakers, these guys are not the ones to use.

The animation and video presentation is just as impressive. The colors and detail are extraordinary. At times, the scences are so "real", you forget it is an animation. The sound track is killer though. In many scenes, the dialogue pans from left to center to right as the characters move on screen. That'll show you any differances in your main and center as far as timbre goes.