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Quad Khorns

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  1. Ok, this is what I get in trying to educate ...a wasted afternoon responding to nonsense. This reminds me why I didn't go into teaching. So why don't you explain what measuring the voltage difference between the neutral at the load, and the ground at the panel through 50 ft of Romex 14 carrying 15 amps has to do with generating a ground loop? That will be interesting ... Let me save you time - it has NOTHING to do creating a ground loop and that has nothing to do with the noise and ground loop discussion. Let me educate you more - That zero potential must be measured at the neutral and ground AT THE SAME POINT WHERE THE DEVICE CONNECTS TO THE POWER not the voltage difference of the neutral at the device and the ground 50 ft away! What are you thinking? With the neutral and ground bonded together at the panel, the voltage difference will be zero between the two at the same point equal distances from the bond point. Let me guess your next response - "but the voltage difference at the same point will still be different by 0.001 volt... See I'm right" Yea sport you are right... I know I know, you have to find some way to save face...so knock yourself out, but I I have better things to do. Oh BTW why don't you post your vast education and experience credentials that generate such great electrical engineering wisdom. Otherwise have a great day!
  2. I'm sure by now the OP has long nodded off and tuned out of this discussion. But back to the OP's original question of the power conditioner being worth it, I read a little about the Furman units on their website. They do not provide any technical details on what exactly their system is and does, and that in itself is telling. The most I can glean from their information is that these units provide some level of filtering and perhaps voltage regulation. They are concerned about RFI and EMI but how do they correct for it? No explanation. They offer units that do power factor correction, which is a power delivery efficiency issue, not an audio quality issue (fewer amps are needed to drive the load with power factor correction). I could get into another long technical discussion, but I'll try to avoid it. In a few words this sort of "power conditioning" is not worth the price tag and will not correct many of the real-world problems present in home power systems. Period. If you want RFI and EMI protection, install twisted pair power wires in metal clad shielding or conduit is the accepted method. And keep the wires away from motors, transformers, and strong magnets. The filtering is almost certainly filters for high frequency sources (such as digital sources), but ignores the most common noise on power lines which are 60 Hz and lower. These are corrected with isolation and shielding. And you also must not connect digital sources (your CD, DVD, streamer players etc.) on the load side of the power conditioner. As I discussed previously, if you need voltage regulation, you got bigger problems than your audio system. Do you share power with an industrial plant? Another high dollar, snake oil product IMHO. There are more cost and performance effective solutions.
  3. Got it thanks. If I would order that through Amazon, Im sure it would ship from Italy...
  4. As I wrote the potential (voltage)between the ground and neutral must be zero or a current will flow somewhere in the system. For there to be a voltage difference between the two, equipment connected to the conductors also are connected in some way to another ground, and the two grounds are not connected directly together (there is a resistance between the two ground points). This sets up the ground loop. I'll say that we are saying the same thing. If wired correctly, if there is a fault on the load side of an iso transformer, it clears back to iso transformer through the ground wire. The iso is the new separately derived power source and is not the house or utility power source. It is now its own system with its own ground. All grounds need to connect back to the power source - the iso. Connecting the secondary side ground to the primary side ground not only defeats the purpose of the iso transformer, but you are potentially setting up a dangerous condition. Think of the iso transformer as the utility and everything connected on the load side would be analogous to your house electrical system. And as such you need load side circuit breakers to protect wire and equipment against overloads and short circuits. If you are concerned about personnel safety or arcing fires you can also install GFIC's and AFCI's on the load side. But I would be judicious about using these as you could be susceptible to nuisance trips, a real PITA.
  5. At the risk of being nit-picky, maybe. To be nauseatingly accurate, if the PC uses an isolation transformer the input ground (house/utility) must be totally isolated from the output ground (iso transformer). Grounding needs to be at the source of the power, and in the case of an iso transformer, is the iso transformer secondary side (this is a separately derived power source per NFPA 70 (the National Electric Code). The primary side grounds back to the house/utility and the two must be separate for effective noise isolation, and I believe safety. This is also true of double conversion UPS's Not interested in an argument or long technical discussion, but this is the correct situation. Other than noise from digital sources (high frequency pulses switching between 1's and 0's), other noise comes from a voltage difference between the ground and neutral (the infamous ground loop). This voltage must always be zero or noise could result. Just about any source of noise that can occur in audio systems that I can think of is a result of a voltage difference between the two.
  6. Ok thanks. It appears in order to see the ingredients, need to request from manufacturer. Site says its a vegetable oil...
  7. Very nice, thank you! Don't know if that brand is sold in the US and I can't read Italian, but what are the ingredients of this oil? What is straw oil?
  8. This isn't necessarily true, if power conditioners have isolation transformers with Faraday shields. The output of the isolation transformers is completely isolated from the source power, including the grounds. The output is a new source of power derived from your power source and isolated. Same if the power conditioner is a double conversion UPS system Noise can also originate when there is a voltage difference between the ground and neutral wires (they are tied together at your electrical panel so the voltage difference should be zero). Noise can also originate from TV cables that are tied in some way to your audio system, and digital sources within your system (CD's, NAP's, etc.) if they share power with your amplifiers and analog audio equipment. Noise is a complex subject that takes books to explain. Unless you can hear noise on your audio system you don't need any of these. If you have noise, investigate and find the source, then investigate ways to mitigate. If you have voltage swings so great that your system cannot handle it, you have big problems in your house way beyond your audio system, or you have absolute junk equipment. If you are worried about voltage spikes, isolation transformers and SPD's will protect your system. (forget about power strip protection, they are useless).
  9. I will admit that I have not looked at the technical details of "power conditioners" because I considered those to be over priced and in most cases unnecessary. If you have audible noise in your system caused by the incoming power supply, then the most cost effective way to mitigate that issue is to install isolation transformers. Another benefit to isolation transformers is they are protection against short duration voltage spikes that can fry electronics. Another solution is "always on-line " or double conversion configured UPS's (uninterruptible power supply) but these are expensive and require maintenance (batteries). If "power conditioners" are essentially one or both of these concepts then they will work, but again too expensive. If all they do are voltage regulation definitely don't buy them. If voltage swings to your house are so great that your normal sound system's power circuitry can't manage it, you need to have discussions with your power company.
  10. Unless pictures really can't depict the effect various products have on the Klipsch oiled veneers, words written about these products are just that, words.
  11. No it won't sound better, unless you are getting noise over your incoming power lines, or you trip your 15 amp breaker - which isn't a sound quality issue, just starving your system of power, which is highly unlikely in your case, ever. You are starting to get it with your thoughts on the expensive gear you listened to. This hobby is infested with high-priced money-making gear (for sellers) that even though people rave about the sound improvement, in reality they wouldn't be able to identify sound differences in statistically valid A/B listening tests. This has been proven time and time again. Save your money
  12. If the “censorship” had to do with topics that has been identified as off limits on this forum (modifications to OEM Klipsch and after market products), well the people who own this forum and pay the bills have the right to do so. Every person here has the right to leave and take their knowledge, experience and contributions elsewhere. I personally found this site to be permissive in terms of discussing various topics and allowing people to disagree, as long as the topics are not modifications or aftermarket products meant for Klipsch products. Try having a heated, controversial discussion where differing ideas are presented and critiqued (ideas not people) on AK … it will be snuffed out immediately. I have permanently deleted them as I don’t tolerate elementary school level, nanny moderation. Outside of this forum, those that think the 1st Amendment has limits, that is complete and utter nonsense. You need to go back and really learn American history as to why it is there. Who decides what is acceptable speech – whoever is in power in the government? Go look at what social media did/do at the request of the government. If you are so fragile that you can’t tolerate differing viewpoints (or as they call it "fake content"), then turn it off. Free discussion and freedom of speech provide a stronger, better-informed community.
  13. Lets see some more pictures of your speakers with your product of choice
  14. I too used the Trade Secret for repair touch ups on other woods and it worked fine for certain types of defects. With all due respect, the tree-hugging propaganda surrounding the VOC crusades that started in the 80's was unscientific and unsubstantiated to this day. The $ trillions in economic impact eliminating so called ozone killing chemicals hasn't resulted in any loss or gain in the ozone that can be distinguished from random chance. You'll never see that reported anywhere ... nor do you hear any more fear mongering about the ozone destruction and the end of humanity. The industry has found another more profitable boogey man. Sorry for the rant
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