Troll
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50 minutes ago, Benbanksy said:
I picked them up and been listening for 30 minutes.
HOLY SHIT… chills. With the right recordings, It’s like listening with headphones that immerse your entire body. Haven’t felt that except at a concert. Ramsey Lewis Trio, Jacob Collier, Tori Kelly, Mozart, Ty Dolla Sign… these do it better than anything I’ve ever heard in a home setting.
I was seriously considering getting the Quartets for a good bit cheaper, and maybe I would have loved those too, but man, I’m not complaining one bit.
As far as moving them, I did need help getting them into my Honda sedan (one in back seat, one hanging out the trunk), but I successfully gently unloaded them, got them on the dolly, and got them up 2 big flights of stairs on my own. I’m not a big guy either—130 lbs.
Worth every penny. Wife is on her way home after being away for a week. Surprise!
Fantastic review. If you are new to Klipsch they can be very revealing and you might find some of your favorite tunes aren't your favorite on Klipsch while other tunes you liked seriously wake up and you love them even more. I've heard songs on the radio that weren't my favorite that came alive on Chorus and I loved the song just for the sound quality. The artists I have known love to hear their songs played on all sorts of things, they don't care as long as you play their tunes. I have a neighbor who is a professional musician and he had never heard his own music on any hifi gear. I had total fun watching him.
When you get over your "what can these guys do" then just sit back and enjoy your new world, save your ears. When I moved I used to set up my Chorus first before I moved anything else in so I could hear good tunes and also hear the room change as furniture moved in. The imagery of one in the back seat and one hanging out the trunk is fabulous. I hope you took a photo! If not throw the boxes back in there just for the shot!
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15 minutes ago, Tom05 said:
Mono and stereo will be substantially the same signal , particularly after the common practice of summing when mastering a recording . You may be capable of hearing a differences in some recordings , or maybe you just think that you can hear a difference , but your perception of improvement would definitely be subjective , not universally seen as improvement 🤓
Also if the mix engineer uses stereo sound shouldn’t we not override “the artists intention”? They can do mono if they want.
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12 minutes ago, Tom05 said:
Mono and stereo will be substantially the same signal , particularly after the common practice of summing when mastering a recording . You may be capable of hearing a differences in some recordings , or maybe you just think that you can hear a difference , but your perception of improvement would definitely be subjective , not universally seen as improvement 🤓
True but the exact same argument was used for mono v stereo and 2-channel v 5.1 and 5.1 v Atmos. And what’s a sensation anyway? Whatever it is you’ll get used to it. Might as well just listen to AM radio through single speaker. What’s the point if you don’t perceive it. I know plenty of people that literally can’t tell the difference in sound quality, while others have golden ears like super tasters. If you can’t perceive it does it exist? If the mix engineer who works in an Atmos room wants us to hear something should we try to share their experience? Not everyone needs an IMAX level of sound.
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31 minutes ago, Don A. Childs said:
By the way, since I'm the new guy, would there be a better way to interact with the forum on this topic other than tagging onto this discussion?
Lots of existing discussions on isolation in general. But it is relevant to this discussion too since it is LS models and discussion of possible cabinet resonance. Up to you. Not sure if new members can start new topics immediately.
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17 minutes ago, Tom05 said:
So what does this mean for me , not much , actually nothing , not in my humble opinion . I’ve compared mono bass to stereo lots of times and concluded that any difference in my home setting is insignificant . Even this guy seems to realizes this , as he insists that we use earphones to detect a change in sound . Earphones are different than loudspeakers in that they give significant directional cues even with low bass signals ,unlike room loudspeakers . 🤓
What is the angle of separation in your setup? Mine is about 45 for mains and 90 for surrounds. I can totally tell a difference in stereo v mono bass, but my surrounds are chorus. Especially with Atmos on albums like Yello the bass waves move across the room. It’s lovely. You’d never get that if you were cutting off your lows and sending to sub. I’ve tried it.
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4 minutes ago, Don A. Childs said:
Actually cant see a thing except that the HF bin sits about 3/4 " higher than it did. I cut and painted one inch tall 24" long (black) square sticks to hide the pucks and add visual continuity. Raising HF bin helped too. Now the sound stage presentation is more appropriately lifted to a realistic level to my hearing. (May have contributed (1 inch) to the perception of enhanced clarity but one inch higher couldn't account for this massive enhancement since I've often experimented with height adjustments in a million increments. Do you own Lascalas or know anyone who does? Very curious if Its just me or if this is as dramatic universally?
If you draw a level line from your ear to the tweeter center, where is it now that you raised it? That might tell us something. Does it still fire level or at an angle now?
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3 minutes ago, Don A. Childs said:
In answer to the question what did I hear improvement in (the bass or upper end). At first I noticed the clarity of the upper end. The instruments took on more dimension and realism in that each musical aspect acquired more of its own flavor. this morning I noticed the violins now have that unique violin tone that makes them so intriguing. Let me know if you try it! Oh, now it seems, the bass stands alone in its own world. Much improved
Photos?
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10 hours ago, Tom05 said:
Deleted
IMHO the physics answer is unresolving speakers hide bad mixes. I bet the mix sounds great on harbeth p3esr near fields. Go figure out why. Also try on headphones. I watched a more recent Chris Isaac video and the eq on his voice is now totally different. I wonder why…. but at the time it had an unusual sound quality to rise above the fray. If you play with mix limits you play with fire. However it’s easily remedied on playback. There was one little bit in his voice after the enveloping warble that almost sounded like cone breakup. Maybe that’s the limit he hit with microphone or levels. It’s very brief. I always have to play a clean track to fix my head after hearing a bad mix. Compare this experience to over driving a speaker that can’t handle it, that actually does cone breakup. Heard that plenty of times.
Time to move on to the next song.
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Just now, Marvel said:
Actually, a lot of us ARE community. Traveled across country to meet one another, helped one another, helped move equipment and supported one another when ill.
So some of us are old timers who have been on here for years and have good friends here. We know each others families, whose living and who is passing away.
Cheers
That’s wonderful.
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57 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
A lot of people have tried lots of things to fix this.
On used original commercial units redeployed to home use.
Commercial plywood LaScalas had commercial woofers with higher SPLs and were often deployed in harsh environments, auditoriums with high temperature and humidity swings over many years. It’s fantastic people find them so good for reuse.
Before you go screw up a pair of AL5s which are MDF/HDF and therefore have different resonance characteristics, I’d consider your SPLs and real world use and actual audible measurements from listening position. Should be easily done with test tone and mic, to pick up actual signal mismatch and with someone alternately pressing on sidewall to dampen to see if errant signal reduces or goes away. Probably REW can do it.
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20 minutes ago, Deang said:
How can it amplify (sum). I thought it was out of phase wave cancellation? That’s why the response looks like a comb. I don’t see how this could ever be a good thing.That’s the way waves work. You can test it with water. It’s what you’d expect, two speakers play louder than one. https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/mcat/physical-processes/light-and-electromagnetic-radiation-questions/v/wave-interference
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21 minutes ago, KT88 said:
I'm sorry, but I see a lot of your posts @Stephen Buckas confusing stuff. In some places what you say is debatable (in my view), but in other places you contradict yourself. I'll make a bet that anyone who posts so much in such a short space of time, even without waiting for replies, is usually out again faster than you might think. Not that others do this, you do it by yourself. I appreciate your posts but I have the impression that you post so much that it's impossible to reply because five new posts are being fired off by you in the meantime.
This leads me to my real question: .... Do you want to be part of this community or do you want to burn off a quick firework and then do the same thing somewhere else...without developing your skills?If you are not able to wait for a discussion/reaction to your posts but keep on firing with more and more posts, then I have to assume that you don't really care about the answers of the members of this forum. The point is that a forum like this is due to its (thank God) openness about exchange, sharing experiences and communication, but at the same time it is always a platform for self-promoters for a short time due to their very short half-life. Perhaps you would like to think about this? I am always open to surprises and new impressions. It would be super cool if you only had one start issue. Why? Because a good part of your posts are very relevant and interesting in my view.
Sorry I post as I think, since sometimes I keep thinking about something and reading/watching from other sources after I post the last comment. Not trying to self-promote I have nothing to sell. But I’m also not about to get corralled by old-timers. I’m a live and let live guy. If my pace or wording bothers you just move on. Yes I will move on too. I’m not one to yell at the tv or newspaper. I just change the channel or read something else. Community is in-person. It’s a canard to think online is really community. But it’s great for information sharing. If I ever meet any of you and remember your fake handle online then I might show some regard and defer. However my oldest friends know I say the darnedest things and they like me for it. Let’s not try to control each other. That’s the beginning of real community. Cheers.
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I’ve a little crow to eat. When I reported I was able to reproduce the irritation of Big Blue Sky :37, I wasn’t running a flat PEQ.
As soon as I ensured I was running flat/straight, and ensured the sub was off, nothing was there that I detected to be a warble or phase type issue, or unlistenable at 80-100dB.
I also tried the suggested
PEQ of 148Hz, Q:8, -7db
at Yamaha’s 140.3 and alternately 148.7 and didn’t notice anything different than flat, though I was using my ears not a meter.
Normally with the kind of music and movies I like to listen to I run
PEQ 15.6Hz, Q:0.5, +6
PEQ 66Hz, Q:0.5, +6
all around.
That curve does raise 148Hz about +4-5 db and makes for great husky male voices like Santa on Violent Night. So at a loud volume the Isaac Warble (lack of a better word) comes out loud and clear esp with subwoofer, and yes it’s removed if only one channel driven.
Now, I’m not a set the volume and leave it kind of guy, and plenty of sources have irritating passages regardless of EQ settings so I just turn them down, skip ahead or as OP suggests, skip the entire song. I did that constantly with vinyl, 8-track, tape, and CD ever since I was a kid. Thank goodness it kept getting easier! Plenty of reasons to find songs and recordings unlistenable. My current scream is Morgan Wallen Thinkin’ Bout Me because it’s a stupid ear worm like achy breaky heart was. Don’t suffer people it’s just entertainment!
The horns on AL5 can definitely envelope you at center stage and either you call that tunneling or whatever and you like it or you don’t. I usually sit to one side unless I’m really trying to take in something. I love how they will throw and image even if not in the sweet spot. I never feel like I’m listening to one speaker which happens a lot with other speakers when you’re off to the side. If you don’t like that effect you can over-cross them.
Anyway, just sharing for what it’s worth!
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6 minutes ago, Marvel said:
I know that isn't true across the board.
Do you have any independently verified examples? I mean sure I could slap on the Jubilee Celestion driver atop my AL5 and make it more sensitive. Already verified that. But the usual networks upgrades with “high performance” components across the board lowered sensitivity in every case I read. Happy to look at an outlier, but the OP is unhappy precisely because of the choice to go 3rd party.
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29 minutes ago, KT88 said:
Stephen, I honestly have the impression that your statements are somewhat confused. Sonicaps don't sound quieter than original Klipsch caps. They even sound louder, but negatively louder, sharper, more metallic and edgier. They have a Q that is absolutely not compatible with Klipsch midrange horns. I don't share your idea that Klipsch should make the Xover a showpiece. It should remain inconspicuous, it is only a means to an end.
Whatever the mod guys do it reduces sensitivity and thus dynamics.
The McLaren edition is an example that would benefit from showing the crossover like one would make a car engine visible.
Different strokes for different folks. Klipsch is big enough to do it all while keeping heritage line classy and McLaren line racy and all things in between.
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It’s not a frequency it’s the arrival time of the same frequency from two locations that can either amplify or cancel. The mono bass guys fell into a religion they don’t understand and didn’t bother consulting the mix engineers.
When you play with frequency and timing you can sweep the comb filter for aural fun, you can eliminate it through delay, it’s part of what makes stereo and multi-channel mixing fun. Otherwise everyone would just have single speakers. The comb is part and parcel to stereo imaging.
No I’m not full of myself for doing fresh work compared to copy pasting old work or others work. I’m just trying and hoping others will too. Anyone else tried the songs?
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“somebody” on YouTube loves sonicaps and badmouths and “fixes” klipsch speakers, but the inevitable result is that well of course he doesn’t demo before and after and sensitivity is greatly reduced when he does produce the after specs. Distortion sounds like a bad component or loose/damaged diaphragm though. The mod world will never tell you to use factory parts because they make a living off visually fancy high margin parts. Physics doesn’t care how cute the part looks. Perhaps klipsch should do a speaker line that displays the crossover and make it visually appealing for the people that want that custom look similar to custom pc builds and car stereos.
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3 minutes ago, Schu said:
What are the 'Advantages' of a 'Stereo' bass?
Bass and low frequencies are not directional and the 'snap shot' of the output and phase issues I posted are indeed of one frequency... not ONLY indicative of One frequency. they are a snap shot after all... But I would have thought that would be apparent.
comb filtering, phase issues don't change or reduce with frequency, they still occur... what changes is the shape of the interference patterns... but they are still there
I think if you take the time to comprehend the two videos posted above where actual mix engineers talk about it and you can hear it for yourself then you might understand.
I do understand comb filtering in a large or open air venue but in the average living room with fast reflections it’s not material.
Anyway give them a watch and respond as if you learned something.
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1 minute ago, Benbanksy said:
I am picking up on Friday! Hopefully I can dolly them up stairs... 90 lbs cabinets solo is tough to wrangle. I may need (will likely need) to ask a neighbor for help. I'm going to clear out a bunch of audio stuff I don't use anymore to justify these. Can't wait.
Woohoo! It’s not the weigth per se it’s the width. Even out of the box it’s still hard to move alone esp on wood floor. We do a 2-hand press and lift method on both sides. You can certainly lift and flip up stairs in box if desperate just watch the shifting. Also if in original box open top, leave styrofoam in, flip then lift.
You’re gonna love them. Hope they’re in good shape and working order.
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2 hours ago, billybob said:
Yes, I paid zero. Brought them up some stairs by hand. Miss them and LS...
What are you running now?
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Did anybody see Top 10 Worst Speakers to Invest in?
Not the best example of someone who doesn’t get what happened during pandemic when people settled in and what happened when the bills came due and people resumed prior activities. Had he compared used car prices over time it would have been more accurate.
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Oh, and I paid $1600 for my originals new and gladly paid $3200 for the mint condition ones a couple years ago. I considered storage fees and inflation. As much as I have hauled my originals and laid on sides before abused with candle wax and who knows what else, the wood, glue and veneers are intact and the woofers are as tight as ever, crossover caps look clean no leakage. Glad my hearing survived. At some point mine need a little finish cleanup but I have other priorities.
If you’re familiar with live piano, the Chorus nails piano. I mean nails it.
Listen before you buy. Pay close attention to the drivers, ensure originals. Any mods besides a simple replaceable Crites diaphragm will lower the value in my opinion. Use klipsch or klipsch certified repair.
But don’t buy for future investment value. Buy because you can’t live without the sound.
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27 minutes ago, Schu said:
This is your multi source bass when summed correctly @63hz... Placed within a 1/4 wave length of each other.
Low frequencies are Omni-Directional
This is your multi source bass, ON CRACK, when they are not summed and placed in a 'STEREO' layout @63Hz... you tell me which one should sound better.
Good thing I don’t listen to the same tone all day long and live in the valleys. But if you watch the above videos on engineering music you’ll understand that modern engineering takes advantage of stereo bass and accounts for you mono heads.
The Chris Isaak example and others I have yet to check may be artifacts and expertise of the mix engineers either taking into account this complexity of deployment or not.
If I was a mix engineer I’d write some code to scan through thousands of tracks, identify the troublemakers, and send a signal to an intelligent dac to handle it, or perhaps I’d just fix it in the source. Spotify for example already does this for “loudness”. It would be easy enough to do programmatically for old tracks that violate stereo bass principles.
However so far it’s sounding pretty clear that most speakers can’t resolve this mix anomaly in an intelligible enough waveform while the AL5 can. Therefore the cost/benefit analysis is not making any effort worth it. I bet it can be heard in JBL though.
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I’ve had my original pair of chorus I since college. Hauled them to dorm and home for 4 years, and every other place I lived since. I started with a 27 watt Denon. In the square footage you are talking, 27 watts is plenty and will clear the room. I like them so much I bought a vintage pair in good shape a couple years ago, fixed a tweeter, and all is good. More watts can do some interesting things with the bass as it can handle 1000 watt peaks but for everyday listening you don’t need or quite frankly want the sound of a big amp at low volume due to noise floor and other issues I have discovered over the years unless you have good loudness controls…the old Denon had variable loudness. As I stepped up to Sony AVR it had more power, a little more shimmer on highs but was kind of a dolt on the midrange. I got used to it. More recently I upgraded to Yamaha AVR and two channel gear and have exercised the Chorus quite a bit with high power and artists like Yello in Atmos. Quite a treat.
One of my best old friends used to help me carry those Chorus in the box in college. We still chat to this day. Maybe it was the experience of needing two people to haul those things upstairs and get them carefully unboxed and reboxed that helped cement the friendship.
The point is that you can move a Heresy by yourself in the box. You won’t be able to haul a Chorus by yourself up stairs unless you’re a dolly professional and even then it’s a risk doing it alone. The trade off however is potential friendship, sharing a beer for the help and some good tunes when it’s hooked up.
I use my Chorus as surrounds now because thankfully they are tall enough to fire over the couch. Once your Heresy’s play second fiddle you’ll need stands or brackets.
Both are fantastic for what they are. My first Klipsch experience was at a friend’s house who put Heresy’s way up in a bookshelf in a sunken den with bumper pool, pinball and popcorn machine, wired to some pioneer elite gear playing
I will never forget the sound. I still get the chills.
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RP-500SA II or RP-502S II (Rear Surround Sound)
in Home Theater
Posted
I’m seeing a lot of reflective surfaces. Clap and if the echo fades in less than a second you’re good, otherwise consider bigger rug and some honeycomb or fabric blinds. Your patio door is going to reflect energy and probably hit you with left speaker more. If you want more bass and greater separation I’d flip the room and float the sectional so you have room for side and rear surrounds. But seeing you have kids you may or may not want them flipping off the back of the couch!