roninklipsch

I listened to both. I have the CW IV with two REL subs paired. Both are great speakers no doubt. Is one worth 2x the price- not for me. Pretty big difference from my Forte's to the CW. As with most equipment, as you move up the line there are performance differences along with diminished returns. If you got the $, buy the biggest baddest Heritage you can afford. They all sound pretty awesome. Also in my room, I have a "L" shape. No corners. I am still working placement and it's been three weeks. All fun though. The CWs are very balanced and really respond to what is upstream. I have a pretty robust SS amp. I tried two different tube amps. Neither one did the trick and the 2nd was very bright. So CW or LS, look at what you are pairing with. I'm really surprised by Kilpsch and the Heritage line. My previous speakers were Wilson. I'll have these CWs a long time. Great for Jazz to acoustic to rock...... Best of luck on your journey...

Thanks everyone. I applied information to Cornwalls as I already traded up! End of thread

I solved my Forte upgrade issue by getting Cornwall's. Very easy to move around and I had them delivered. No sweat. What flattens my spine are the 100lb amps... I was on a tube thing as well. Would love to try SET and also I do see a few DecWares out there. Cool thing is the Heritage line can run on anything....

I would suspect some devices might, like tubes perhaps or brand new caps. However I question a lot of what I hear on audio forums anyway. Heck, some folks say you can replace a fuse and hear it so they spend 250 bucks on a fuse. Then they- wait for it, turn the fuse 180 degrees and again hear a difference! But to answer your question from my personal perspective, I have seen mfg recommendations on speakers and amps etc quote 200-500 hours needed to fully break in. Who the heck remembers exactly what their system sounded like weeks/months ago? In short, I have never heard a difference but that's just me. My last amp was bought new, sounded great then, sounds great now.

Kinda a omen I think. The Corns are staying. Perhaps the Michi is too as like another article I read, the only thing I have heard better was a Dag. I even liked it better than Pass. To have Klipsch pick a very similar amp to mine and the same Mfg of course to show their Jubilee says a lot I think. And what is just as interesting in my quest- they did not use tubes. Different speaker of course but a Klipsch none the less. I use AQ wiring as well and a Hurricane power cable but use Kimber for speakers. I am still going to play with tubes. I started another thread to get opinions on if that was fun or folly. But as much as I like to play around, a keeper is a keeper.

I did see some monster tube amps... Well one thing I learned, there are a lot more variations then I thought. Tube single-ended triode (SET) Tube single-ended OTL (Output transformer less) Tube push pull OTL (Output transformer less) Tube push pull Transistorized single-ended Transistorized push pull Transistorized digital Single-ended hybrids Push pull hybrids And another good point was "You cannot say that any type is superior to another. Just look to the several articles that appears on the specialized magazines and internet. Also, personal reviews that justifies each one type and its variations with arguments that sometimes reach religious or fanatical status. You simply can not doubt those people as they can be honestly reporting what they hear with the type of music they enjoy and in their location with their loudspeaker systems, cables, pre-amplifier and front end (CD player, turntable, etc.)." So I guess a SET is an option for some of us simply because we can. And, it's proven. Lot's of folks love these things...

I’m thinking of trying a pre-out from an integrated SS amp with the speaker connections to low end. The pre-out would go to a tube amp and run horns. (speakers are bi-ampable (not sure that’s a word but you know what I mean- 4 posts) I’m not sure how a pre-out would differ from a preamp … at least as far as what the power amp would see...? However maybe I’m missing something? Output vs input sensitivity? Integrated Amp pre-out is 1 volt… 480 ohms Running to a tube amp with 880mv Input Sensitivity and 100k ohms impedance for example? Are the above specs worth matching? Or what should I look for? Thank you!!!

Agreed. And no way really to measure/tweak a set up like that for optimal performance possibly. Sounds like a great idea and aesthetically balanced but may be functionally flawed. Folks do it, but every system is different. Really two paths I guess... 1. Replace Michi with tube integrated that sounds better on Corns. (This will be hard, the Michi does not have a tube sound but it does a damn good job with the Corns) 2. Try the monos knowing full well I may need a "real" pre and put in the effort to set up a tube system built around the Corns. Cool thing about SET etc (even Decware) is it's not too expensive to try. That being said I just saw a Japanese tube selling for 2400.00 each! But I see some SET out there that seems like great stuff. Good news is even if I just give up, I got music. It's a hobby and its fun. Even more fun now that I'm staying with stuff I can lift..... 50lbs max and I don't think they make 50lb SET amps...lol

Update- In short.. The Ayon is going back. The Michi is staying. I may start another thread or may not. I don't want to tie up the forum with newbie crud. My hope is to run pre out from Michi to tube mono blocks. Michi powers bass, tubes power horns. That seems to me to be the best plan. I guess a tube power amp would work too- really same scenario from a sound prospective as many are dual mono. I see stuff out there (even Decware). I will pause, learn and proceed...... Many thanks to all who chimed in. Your input was in valuable and helped ton. I know a lot more today about where I'm heading. I also use a lot more Advil but that's temporary. And that would be lesson #2. I'm done buying equipment I can't lift! (exception being the Corns, they are staying)

Thanks Gents. I'm learning a lot already. Had I of known I would of asked earlier and before I shopped. Oh well. I like what I'm hearing so far but need a few more sessions to really get to know what's best with what I have on hand.

So I wrote Paul a well thought out paragraph. I got a 4 word response. "Put it in triode" Thanks lol. Also found out it was sold new 7/22. Pretty fresh unit and tubes I suspect.

Thank you! Got the bookmark.

Thanks guys. I'm not giving up on tubes. I'm just getting started! Lots of options though. Now I see Audio Mirror (I love mono blocks) and RM 10. Looks like great stuff. I'm 100% digital btw. I run a Laptop as a server with Amazon HD and Spotify. I have also tried Qobuz. I have also tried Aurender etc bit I like the PC type interface. The tablet control is pretty good these days though. Passive pre may be a thought. Ill research. It's all fun at this point...

Holy smokes Henry.... That is great info. Do you charge for phone consultations? (lol) Great insight. The tube rolling hobby I understand has gotten a lot more expensive these days I hear!. Yeah you are right on at 350mv which at the time did not register with me. BIG diff between that and 1.6. I'm not quite sure how/what an active buffer / passive pre would look like (on an integrated) ...... BTW- I run subs too. REL T9x (2) but connected at speaker terminals. Another avenue is I'm just using the DAC on board the Ayon. I can't find any data on it but it's probably not the best. If I'm lucky a good AKM chip. I will try a couple inexpensive DACs today I have lying around. I know DACs well but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole just yet. Difference in Lab 12 and Ayon- Lab 12 was really lush. A little more meaty. Ayon sounds like nothing I have heard really. Great sense of space with wonderful detail. However listening experience is determined by volume or in other words- there is a bite to some presentations like piano at volume. I have experienced this with solid state devices and traditional speakers. Like a Pass into Dynaudio. My current set up is not near that degree of ear bleed... Ayon seems to have artifacts of tube and SS if that is possible to define in that manner. The Corns like tubes... The capacitor mod is intriguing. Thank you for your time and insight.

I thought they two symptoms might be related. They are not. Noise is gone but I guess quite frankly, I got more power than I need. I switched to Triode mode and that is nice and gives me a little more flexibility but a little awkward with remote as 1 "click" can still be too much high or low. I have a workable set up now at least. I guess in theory I could remove the KT 150s and swap for EL34? I'm going to just listen for a while. Maybe call Paul at USA. I have lots of options. My guess is even (way low power) SET would work fine. But I do like soft acoustic to rock. Right now I'm probably over shooting on power. That is better than under shooting with my habits.

UPDATE- On another forum a gent wrote me and said he had the same Lab 12 amp. His hummed too but not that loud. I suspect he did not have as efficient speakers. TA DA! Hooked up the Ayon- not a peep even at 3/4 volume. Dead quiet. Volume is touchy though as it gets loud quick. I did a bias and ran in Pentode. I hooked up the RELs and did not get a peep but I learned it helps if you watch polarity! (Rookie mistake). Tonight I'll switch the subs and try Triode mode. At least I'm cooking with gas now..... I can evaluate....

I guess there are subs with a remote. Velodyne for example. I am very happy with the bass. Bass output in general is room dependant to a degree and you need to explore crossover and volume settings to integrate well with your speakers. All depends on what you would like your end result to be. You mentioned a remote? Do you want to crank it a bit so you hear it noticeably on every song? If so then that is somewhat opposite of most systems. For example, I want the subs to dissappear. The added base simply melds itself into the main speakers. I start my set up with Thanks To You by Boz Scaggs. If that sounds perfect than I'm going the right direction. But does rock have less thump than hip hop. Yep. That's just the way is was recorded....

I do rock pretty hard at times and it is a lot of fun. The other 60% of the time it's jazz, Govi, acoustic etc. What's cool about the Corns is it does them all. I'm sure my past audiophile buddies have throw me out of the club having Klipsch and tubes (lol) but fact is, the Corns rock AND do a great job on most everything. Especially when paired with REL subs. If I could try a SET I would. If I could find a Decware I would.... I'm new to this tube stuff and folks have some strong opinions on SET, push-pull, Class A, and some a distaste for ultra-linear. It all comes down to what you like in your living room. I have a hard time with the idea of a 2 watt amp but that is almost 100% because I have no experience. That other amp may be a bad apple or just a poor mix with what ever else I got going on here. I got a darn 20a dedicated run and a freaking Hurricane power cable. Stuff should work (lol).... Also I'm still fiddling with room placement with the Corns. I just moved them further apart and placed the subs inside the speakers vs outside. I'm trying another amp today. It's a Class A , works in triode or pentode mode. KT 150s. That should answer the question as to if the Lab 12 was funky or I have a really noisy room. Thank you for your input.

Integrating a factory sub which has a ton of engineering behind it is still tricky. So if you built these and are trying to work out power, placement etc. over different genres that could be one heck of a task. My advice is buy a sub that is proven and is known to work well perhaps with Klipsch. It will save you time and maybe money if you are considering amps, drivers etc. I have Corns and use two REL T9xs subs. They connect on high level output (speaker terminals) but do not create any load. A pretty unique bit on engineering. They are not really expensive if you look at the product line.. The Reference are but you could probably get by with one of any good sub. RELs are quick and musical. I have never had a Klipsch sub, but reviews are good. And I guess my point is, dialing in a sub is a lot of tweaking even if it's a REL, Klipsch etc. and takes a lot of experimenting. Depending upon the genre and recording quality, you may still get differing results.... Best of luck

After some research I have decided a bi amp may work if I grab another power amp but I'm looking at tube Integrated. While I may be able to rig something up, I'm hoping a good integrated tube amp will do the trick. Thanks to all who chimed in....

Thank you. I'm not sure what they used but I did a test on the amp in another room with Klipsh bookshelves. Probably 90db? Anyway I still heard it enough to be spooked. I thought it was a tube for sure. They said all was fine and I'm sure it is....sort of. Anyway, it ain't fine here so back it went. If this hums and or does not sound Class A really darn good freaking great (lol) I can audition a i50. If that does not pan out I'll know I have more work to do. I'm not giving up on the Cornwalls. Even if it solid state all the way....

Try #2 by tomorrow. Anyone with Ayon experience please ping .. Thanks all..

Love the Mustang

No but someone I trust took it in. I'm not super surprised that it is NDF. Different location, load etc. But no harm no foul. Did not cost me anything to audition it. I'll shop a bit but I'm staying away from "boutique". AR, Quicksilver, Primaluna,Unison, etc. Folks with a history. Sounded darn good though. Hopefully my room is not possessed...

Update.... Tech looked at the Lab 12 and said it is functioning perfectly. Crap. Now I'm spooked a bit about going tubes. I have had Octave and Primaluna with no issues but not on 102db speakers and not in this room. They asked about dimmers or maybe switching power supplies. The Lab 12 hummed with even small klipsch bookshelves in another room! Thanks everyone for the help. I had a ridiculous deal on the amp and it sounded wonderful but not quiet at all. The journey continues....