Bob_Collins

Most articles I've read concerning how to set the phase correctly when using the SMS-1 say to adjust for the flattest response at the crossover point, or for the cleanest transition at the crossover point, which in most cases would be 80 Hz., however, isn't the whole point of getting the phase properly adjusted to get your subwoofer and main speakers properly "timed" so they are not cancelling out each other? Shouldn't you adjust the phase control to give you the flattest response across the entire spectrum below AND at the crossover point? I've noticed that the phase adjustment can introduce some deep cuts in the below 80Hz. response, as well as introduce some large peaks. Also, whether I run my speakers (Klipsch RF-7s) at LARGE and in mixed mode output (both the sub and front L/R speakers produce the low end bass) versus running them at SMALL where they are rolled off and all low end content is fed to the subwoofer, has a direct result on the flattest response, and thus what I believe to be the proper phase adjustment. Example: Running all speakers at SMALL, flattest response output from the SMS-1 display graph before any EQ applied, phase = 45 (positive). Running front L/R at Large and sub set to mixed, flattest response output from the SMS-1 display graph before any EQ applied, phase = 165 (negative). Am I correct in that the phase control should be used to give the flattest overall response and not just try to "optimize" the crossover setting?

Has anyone else noticed that when running a self-EQ (sub only) on your subwoofer it doesn't roll off the low end and it plays louder than when you run an auto-EQ or manual-EQ? Is the flatter low-end response simply the result of the volume appearing to be louder, or is this the result of some subsonic filter in the receiver (Marantz SR8200) cutting off the very low end of the subwoofer output? Note, the volume setting on the subwoofer was not touched, nor was the volume changed on the SMS-1 (it was kept at a value of 15 for all modes (self-EQ, Auto-EQ, and manual-EQ)), however the output registered higher on the display output from the SMS-1 when running the self-EQ, and as I noted above, the output was not rolled off but rather was pretty flat across the entire low-end spectrum that the SMS-1 displays on the screen (down to 15 Hz.). Any ideas as to why this might occur? Is the SMS-1 outputting a louder signal (even though the volume setting is the same) when it runs a self-EQ versus going through the receiver when doing it via auto-EQ or manual-EQ, and is this louder signal the reason why the very bottom end does not drop off?

And the winner is.......... Paradigm Servo15 v.2!!!!!!!!!!!! I got this sub about a month ago, and have very little time to try to work with it or calibrate it, but the little I have done, I am pretty happy with my choice. I was able to get a price I was happy with (especially since the price increase of $300 occurred earlier this year). I also bought a Velodyne SMS-1 to use with the above sub, and am pretty happy with that unit with the little time I have used it. The combination of these 2 should provide me with the quality and quantity of bass I was looking for in my room. Thanks to all for their thoughts, comments, and input on my choice. I'll be posting additionally on the SMS-1 with some comments, wish-list types of features I'd like it to have, and questions on proper use (especially with the phase settings), so be looking for those. Thanks again, all!!!! []

Correct. I am not looking for a bargain basement subwoofer. Right now I am thinking that the Servo 15 might be my top choice, with the Revel B15a as the second choice (although I do like the EQ options available on the Velodyne DD-15).

Nope, size is not an issue. I just want to stick to subs that I can walk into a dealer, look at, hear, take home, and be able to return without the hassle of having to deal with a shipper. Also, I tend to prefer the idea of a sealed subwoofer rather than ported or with a passive radiator. Ear, elsewhere you mentioned that the Revel B15 was your personal favorite subwoofer, can you tell me why? Also, which of the 3 on my short list do you think will dig deepest (play the lowest notes (below 20 Hz.), audibly)? Bob

Yeah, I don't think the sub-12 would dig near as deep as I want, especially since the RF-7's are very capable of digging fairly deep on their own. I know that TheEar has (or had) a Servo 15, a Velodyne HGS-18, and the Revel B-15, and previously has stated that the Revel is his favorite sub overall, so I'd like to get him to chime in with his recommendation on my short list in the original message that kicked off the thread (not the old antiquated versions he has (just kidding!) ;-) I'd also like to ask TheEar to respond as to why the Revel is his overall favorite, is it for its ability to dig deep, its musicality or accuracy, or the ability to match it with virtually any speaker combo due to the EQ it has? Ear, again I was only teasing about you having older models. I have great respect for your opinion on this subject, and hope my comment above was taken in the joking manner in which it was meant. Bob

OK, here is my current shortlist of subwoofers that I am considering purchasing. Paradigm Servo 15 v.2 Revel B15a Velodyne DD-15 Which one of the above would be the best choice in terms of quality, low extension (must dig lower than 20 Hz. and be audible). The main speakers and surrounds are Klipsch RF-7s, RC-7 is the center channel, and Klipsch Fortes are the rear surrounds in a 7 channel config. I will be listening to both music and home theater, but mostly movies in home theater mode. I want QUALITY, DEEP, LOW bass, not looking for maximum output, hence my short list above. If additional output were needed, I would be looking at adding a second matching sub, but at least initially there will only be one. One sub to rule them all is what I am after. ;-) Thanks in advance! Bob

Call the Klipsch parts department and see if they have one in stock to send you. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but believe it is on the website. I had to call them about a replacement driver in the past.

It's nice to hear Ear talk so highly of these subs (Velodyne & Paradigm Signature Servo). They are certainly on my short list of subs to choose from (Velodyne DD15, Paradigm Signature Servo, and Revel B15a). Nice to know I have good taste! As for the James sub, I too own RF-7s, and the demo I got on the 12" version of the James left me thinking that I have more bass from just the RF-7s. I wondered if the sub were actually ON, or possibly not calibrated properly to the room and other speakers.

---------------- On 5/23/2004 8:44:33 PM TheEAR wrote: Bob, You have PM ---------------- It's better than being told I have PMS!

Hopefully this coming Friday I will be auditioning the Revel B15a, and will get to be there to assist or at least see how to use the LFO software and 3 band parametric EQ on this sub to match it to the mains and room. After that demo, I hope to make it to another dealer to audition the Paradigm Signature Servo, and just for good measure, a pair of Paradigm Servo 15's. I'm going to try to listen as many different ones (highly regarded ones, that is) as I can, and will report when I make a decision and lay down the cash!!! In the meantime, all help, guidance, and opinions are welcomed. Thanks!

I didn't find Ear's response to be condescending in the least (towards me anyway). I welcome ALL opinions, and will audition as many as I can, but will definietly avoid those ultra-low-end boxes that most large retailers call subwoofers which are in point of fact, woofers (won't hit the low frequencys that a true, capabale subwoofer will). Which brings me to another question regarding the Revel that TheEar suggested. Will it dig low and deep (below 20 Hz. like many of the others will, say down to 16 Hz or even 11 Hz which is the lower end of what the Signature Servo is spec'd to do)? Thanks again!

---------------- On 5/18/2004 8:40:11 PM TheEAR wrote: You are looking at a sub around $3000 that will match with ANY large speakers,perform music duty with finesse and have mad output down low when called upon.Or serve as a killer HT sub,with giant output and refined when needed... ---------------- Ear, you hit on the head exactly the qualities I am seeking, and my goal (to get the most for the money spent). I will definitely give a look and find a dealer to give a listen to the Revel B15. Just a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. First, does this sub have a connection to the TV to produce the visual graph out, or do I use a sound meter to calibrate it manually? Also, how do you compare the Revel against the Paradigm Signature Servo? Do you know anything about the Kleiss S15A? And finally, just how important is it to EQ the sub for the flattest response? Michael Hurd mentioned earlier that: ---------------- if you tame a peak at one listening position, then you are surely adding peaks at another. ---------------- With this being the case, should I be worried about having that EQ circuitry like the Velodyne DD, or even trying to manually EQ it at all? Sorry to be so clueless here, but this will be my first sub, and I want to get it right.

Can't really say I'm overly impressed with Klipsch subs, especially those of the past. One other sub that looks good from the reviews is the Kleiss S15A, as reviewed in the June 2004 Stereophile Ultimate AV mag. Again, if I wind up going with something that does have the EQ ability internally, can someone tell me what I need, and how to best accomplish the same thing on a sub that does not have that capability? Thanks everyone so far for your input, as I said before, I am looking to you guys for guidance here.

Main use will be for HT, however it has to be accurate and capable for music also. I'm picky about music. Not an audiophile, but picky. I don't like boomy bass, just to be boomy. I am of the school of thought that the subwoofer should not be noticed, but rather the lack of it should be noticed (at least with music). It should enhance, not overpower the music. I don't need to spend the whole bundle on a sub, would be willing to spend less and get other things too, like whatever i would need to accurately and easily EQ the sub, maybe a 2 channel amp, or some gadget i don't really need.