Bob_Collins

Most articles I've read concerning how to set the phase correctly when using the SMS-1 say to adjust for the flattest response at the crossover point, or for the cleanest transition at the crossover point, which in most cases would be 80 Hz., however, isn't the whole point of getting the phase properly adjusted to get your subwoofer and main speakers properly "timed" so they are not cancelling out each other? Shouldn't you adjust the phase control to give you the flattest response across the entire spectrum below AND at the crossover point? I've noticed that the phase adjustment can introduce some deep cuts in the below 80Hz. response, as well as introduce some large peaks. Also, whether I run my speakers (Klipsch RF-7s) at LARGE and in mixed mode output (both the sub and front L/R speakers produce the low end bass) versus running them at SMALL where they are rolled off and all low end content is fed to the subwoofer, has a direct result on the flattest response, and thus what I believe to be the proper phase adjustment. Example: Running all speakers at SMALL, flattest response output from the SMS-1 display graph before any EQ applied, phase = 45 (positive). Running front L/R at Large and sub set to mixed, flattest response output from the SMS-1 display graph before any EQ applied, phase = 165 (negative). Am I correct in that the phase control should be used to give the flattest overall response and not just try to "optimize" the crossover setting?

Has anyone else noticed that when running a self-EQ (sub only) on your subwoofer it doesn't roll off the low end and it plays louder than when you run an auto-EQ or manual-EQ? Is the flatter low-end response simply the result of the volume appearing to be louder, or is this the result of some subsonic filter in the receiver (Marantz SR8200) cutting off the very low end of the subwoofer output? Note, the volume setting on the subwoofer was not touched, nor was the volume changed on the SMS-1 (it was kept at a value of 15 for all modes (self-EQ, Auto-EQ, and manual-EQ)), however the output registered higher on the display output from the SMS-1 when running the self-EQ, and as I noted above, the output was not rolled off but rather was pretty flat across the entire low-end spectrum that the SMS-1 displays on the screen (down to 15 Hz.). Any ideas as to why this might occur? Is the SMS-1 outputting a louder signal (even though the volume setting is the same) when it runs a self-EQ versus going through the receiver when doing it via auto-EQ or manual-EQ, and is this louder signal the reason why the very bottom end does not drop off?

And the winner is.......... Paradigm Servo15 v.2!!!!!!!!!!!! I got this sub about a month ago, and have very little time to try to work with it or calibrate it, but the little I have done, I am pretty happy with my choice. I was able to get a price I was happy with (especially since the price increase of $300 occurred earlier this year). I also bought a Velodyne SMS-1 to use with the above sub, and am pretty happy with that unit with the little time I have used it. The combination of these 2 should provide me with the quality and quantity of bass I was looking for in my room. Thanks to all for their thoughts, comments, and input on my choice. I'll be posting additionally on the SMS-1 with some comments, wish-list types of features I'd like it to have, and questions on proper use (especially with the phase settings), so be looking for those. Thanks again, all!!!! []

Correct. I am not looking for a bargain basement subwoofer. Right now I am thinking that the Servo 15 might be my top choice, with the Revel B15a as the second choice (although I do like the EQ options available on the Velodyne DD-15).

Nope, size is not an issue. I just want to stick to subs that I can walk into a dealer, look at, hear, take home, and be able to return without the hassle of having to deal with a shipper. Also, I tend to prefer the idea of a sealed subwoofer rather than ported or with a passive radiator. Ear, elsewhere you mentioned that the Revel B15 was your personal favorite subwoofer, can you tell me why? Also, which of the 3 on my short list do you think will dig deepest (play the lowest notes (below 20 Hz.), audibly)? Bob

Yeah, I don't think the sub-12 would dig near as deep as I want, especially since the RF-7's are very capable of digging fairly deep on their own. I know that TheEar has (or had) a Servo 15, a Velodyne HGS-18, and the Revel B-15, and previously has stated that the Revel is his favorite sub overall, so I'd like to get him to chime in with his recommendation on my short list in the original message that kicked off the thread (not the old antiquated versions he has (just kidding!) ;-) I'd also like to ask TheEar to respond as to why the Revel is his overall favorite, is it for its ability to dig deep, its musicality or accuracy, or the ability to match it with virtually any speaker combo due to the EQ it has? Ear, again I was only teasing about you having older models. I have great respect for your opinion on this subject, and hope my comment above was taken in the joking manner in which it was meant. Bob

OK, here is my current shortlist of subwoofers that I am considering purchasing. Paradigm Servo 15 v.2 Revel B15a Velodyne DD-15 Which one of the above would be the best choice in terms of quality, low extension (must dig lower than 20 Hz. and be audible). The main speakers and surrounds are Klipsch RF-7s, RC-7 is the center channel, and Klipsch Fortes are the rear surrounds in a 7 channel config. I will be listening to both music and home theater, but mostly movies in home theater mode. I want QUALITY, DEEP, LOW bass, not looking for maximum output, hence my short list above. If additional output were needed, I would be looking at adding a second matching sub, but at least initially there will only be one. One sub to rule them all is what I am after. ;-) Thanks in advance! Bob

Call the Klipsch parts department and see if they have one in stock to send you. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but believe it is on the website. I had to call them about a replacement driver in the past.

It's nice to hear Ear talk so highly of these subs (Velodyne & Paradigm Signature Servo). They are certainly on my short list of subs to choose from (Velodyne DD15, Paradigm Signature Servo, and Revel B15a). Nice to know I have good taste! As for the James sub, I too own RF-7s, and the demo I got on the 12" version of the James left me thinking that I have more bass from just the RF-7s. I wondered if the sub were actually ON, or possibly not calibrated properly to the room and other speakers.

---------------- On 5/23/2004 8:44:33 PM TheEAR wrote: Bob, You have PM ---------------- It's better than being told I have PMS!

Hopefully this coming Friday I will be auditioning the Revel B15a, and will get to be there to assist or at least see how to use the LFO software and 3 band parametric EQ on this sub to match it to the mains and room. After that demo, I hope to make it to another dealer to audition the Paradigm Signature Servo, and just for good measure, a pair of Paradigm Servo 15's. I'm going to try to listen as many different ones (highly regarded ones, that is) as I can, and will report when I make a decision and lay down the cash!!! In the meantime, all help, guidance, and opinions are welcomed. Thanks!

I didn't find Ear's response to be condescending in the least (towards me anyway). I welcome ALL opinions, and will audition as many as I can, but will definietly avoid those ultra-low-end boxes that most large retailers call subwoofers which are in point of fact, woofers (won't hit the low frequencys that a true, capabale subwoofer will). Which brings me to another question regarding the Revel that TheEar suggested. Will it dig low and deep (below 20 Hz. like many of the others will, say down to 16 Hz or even 11 Hz which is the lower end of what the Signature Servo is spec'd to do)? Thanks again!

---------------- On 5/18/2004 8:40:11 PM TheEAR wrote: You are looking at a sub around $3000 that will match with ANY large speakers,perform music duty with finesse and have mad output down low when called upon.Or serve as a killer HT sub,with giant output and refined when needed... ---------------- Ear, you hit on the head exactly the qualities I am seeking, and my goal (to get the most for the money spent). I will definitely give a look and find a dealer to give a listen to the Revel B15. Just a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. First, does this sub have a connection to the TV to produce the visual graph out, or do I use a sound meter to calibrate it manually? Also, how do you compare the Revel against the Paradigm Signature Servo? Do you know anything about the Kleiss S15A? And finally, just how important is it to EQ the sub for the flattest response? Michael Hurd mentioned earlier that: ---------------- if you tame a peak at one listening position, then you are surely adding peaks at another. ---------------- With this being the case, should I be worried about having that EQ circuitry like the Velodyne DD, or even trying to manually EQ it at all? Sorry to be so clueless here, but this will be my first sub, and I want to get it right.

Can't really say I'm overly impressed with Klipsch subs, especially those of the past. One other sub that looks good from the reviews is the Kleiss S15A, as reviewed in the June 2004 Stereophile Ultimate AV mag. Again, if I wind up going with something that does have the EQ ability internally, can someone tell me what I need, and how to best accomplish the same thing on a sub that does not have that capability? Thanks everyone so far for your input, as I said before, I am looking to you guys for guidance here.

Main use will be for HT, however it has to be accurate and capable for music also. I'm picky about music. Not an audiophile, but picky. I don't like boomy bass, just to be boomy. I am of the school of thought that the subwoofer should not be noticed, but rather the lack of it should be noticed (at least with music). It should enhance, not overpower the music. I don't need to spend the whole bundle on a sub, would be willing to spend less and get other things too, like whatever i would need to accurately and easily EQ the sub, maybe a 2 channel amp, or some gadget i don't really need.

I'm in the market for a subwoofer to add to my system. I want something that goes down below 20 HZ, and is accurate and clean. Quality is more important than quantity. The room size is about 12x24 with vaulted ceilings (peak is about 16 feet high). My main speakers are Klipsch RF-7s, RC-7 center, and the surrounds are also RF-7s. The rear speakers for those few soundtracks that support DTS-ES or DD-EX, are Klipsch Fortes. My budget is enough to buy the new Paradigm Signature Servo (approx. $3000). My top choice I was thinking might be the Velodyne DD 15, as I like the idea of being able to easily and quickly EQ the sub to flatten out and room resonance or bring up any "holes" in the room also. But I also like the Signature Servo. It seems quite capable. I've also considered the Paradigm Servo 15 (substantially less costly), but would like to know how to properly EQ a sub that does not have the EQ circuitry internally? How time consuming is it to do? How expensive to do it externally to the sub? One other sub that looks interesting is the Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ Signature, which also has the EQ circuitry internally, and can automatically perform said EQ. I'm looking for guidance here fellas, if you had the same amount to spend ($3000, give or take a few hundred), what would go with? I would consider SVS, but am not too keen on the idea of having to pay shipping in either direction should I not like it. Suggestions, opinions?

Ok guys, I have a question to pose. Are there any Home Theater receivers or processors out that include the venerable, old tape loop function? Im referring to the ability on older stereo equipment to select a source for recording out to the tape outputs, but still allow you to choose to listen to a different source while the recording continued on its merry way. Example, record from a CD player, while listening to the tuner or phono input. Adjusting volume, tone controls, etc., all have no effect on what is being passed out to the tape deck. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I know some early A/V receivers included this feature also, and would allow you to view one source while recording another. Example, record from laserdisc to VCR while watching and listening to a DVD, or other input. Again, adjusting volume, tone controls, etc., would have no effect on the picture or audio being output to the VCR. To me, this is a pretty important feature, as it would allow me to actually use my 3-head tape deck as it was intended to be used (monitor off the tape the just recorded signal, including calibrating to the tape type used), and would allow me to be certain that what I thought was getting to the VCR to be recorded, was actually correct (audio and video, S-video connection, not composite). Does anything include this feature anymore?

This question refers to any HT receiver that does not have jumpers or switches to disable the input to the internal amplifiers. Most HT receivers above a certain price range have pre-outs. Some have inputs to the amplifier stages, most probably don't, however. I would guess that most do not have jumpers connecting the pre-out to the amplifier input, until you jump up a considerable amount in price, if at all. Which leads me to my question. If I use an external amplifier (feeding the pre-outs of my HT receiver to an external amplifier), wont the internal amplifier still be receiving and amplifying the signal, thus producing heat and drawing power, just as if it had a speaker load attached? The jumpers I am referring to are what used to be found on most decent, upper end stereo receivers. They simply provide the path from the pre-out of the receiver, to the input of the amplifier. My Nakamichi TA-4A had them, and the Yamaha DSP-A1 has them for its L, R, and Center channels (I believe).

Thanks to everyone for all the responses, and recommendations. It seems that SVS is worth looking into, based on the remarks made by everyone here. As for the BIG Velodynes, IF an HGS-18 can be had for under $2000 from an autohorized dealer, I'm there! I believe it to be one of the best subs on the planet, and is a legend in terms of subwoofers. You may be seeing this post, or a similar one by me on some of the other forums, so please be patient with me, if you see it elsewhere. I'm just trying to make an educated decision here, and trying to gather knowledge from as many different and (hopefully) valid sources as possible.

I've considered the RSW-15, but I've never really been impressed with Klipsch subwoofers from what I remember of them in the past.

Thanks to all that have posted, it seems that SVS gets high marks from everyone here, so I'll have to give them some consideration, and hopefully somehow arrange an audition or something before I purchase anything.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> TheEar, I was really hoping you could offer input on the Vandersteen, as it is in the top position of subs I want to audition. Unfortunately, the only Vandersteen dealer in the state (<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Ohio) doesnt have them in for audition, but they do have the Vandersteen 2W-Q, which is supposed to sound pretty similar, only not quite as loud. I knew the HGS-12 rolled off sharply below 20, but didnt know it started to roll off sharply at 25 (although when I looked at the table I included below, it dropped14 dB when going from 25 down to 20 Hz., so I have to say you are indeed correct). I have a friend who has one, and was quite impressed with it, but I havent done any low frequency sweeps or testing on it to see how it goes. He has the subsonic filter set to 20 Hz., which is that guys lowest setting. The 15 and 18 both have a lowest setting of 15 Hz. for the subsonic filter. The servo 15 was the top guy on my list not too long ago (until I read The Essential Subwoofer Buyers Guide special edition put out by WSR, which didnt give it overall high marks in a few areas. Ill have to be sure to audition it, as I have been told it will go well below 20, and is clean and not boomy. According to these same reviews, the output of the subwoofers I listed at 20 Hz. are: Vandersteen V2W 94 dB (down 10 dB from 25 Hz.) Bag End Infra 18 90 dB (down 12 dB from 25 Hz.) Mirage BPS-400 Not stated (105 dB at 25 Hz.) M&K MX-700 92 dB (down 8 dB from 25 Hz.) Paradigm Reference Servo-15 96 dB (down 10 dB from 25 Hz.) Velodyne HGS-12 90 dB (down 14 dB from 25 Hz.) The 2 highest output units (of the ones with an output listed at 20), are the Servo-15 and the Vandersteen, separated by only 2 dB. Again, remember, I am not after ultimate loudness of the bass, but rather a low, extended bass response that is clean (distortion free), not thumping or booming just for the sake of making things rattle. J. Gary, I agree with you that the 2W-Q can be blended in with the mains better than anything else, do to the unusual method of connection, although I have not actually heard them either. Ultimately, I would love to have a 2W-Q attached to each speaker in my system, but right now I am looking for something to hook up to the LFE or .1 output to get me started. Formica, I am leaning in the direction of the sealed box units, due to their improved transient response, and less aggressive roll-off below their nominal cut-off frequency. Again, Im talking theory here as expounded by Richard Hardesty, and Im counting on knowledgeable folks from this site to set me straight, if I am mistaken.

Thanks for the response. Just a reminder, the Fortes are now the SURROUND speakers, and I have RF-7s as the mains. They are even more bass-capable than the Fortes were/are.

I've not checked into them (SVS) much, except to browse their site a bit, and to be honest, I am not too keen on buying something "blind", which is what I would be doing if I went with the Bag End, or SVS, or a DIY sub. With a DIY sub, there would be no way to return it if I did not like it in my home. I'm not willing to take that risk. I know SVS is in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Ohio (I am too), and maybe if I could audition them beforehand, I might be more inclined to be persuaded. It's just that in my mind, a sealed enclosure would be better, as there is no worry of any "port noise" to even remotely enter the sound that is being introduced into the room from the subwoofer. I was hoping to get some comments on the subwoofers I listed as possibilities (to reinforce their being on my list to audition, or rule them out completely), and to get some recommendations (brand, model, and price) of others I should check out.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I understand that the V of SVS is here on the board sometimes, and maybe he could help to enlighten me, and correct any misconceptions I may have stated in my original post as to what I believe a subwoofer should be and do. Remember, I am after QUALITY and not quantity. Most of what I have read in regards to the SVS and HSU subs seem to be more for those who want maximum output for the money, which is NOT what I am after. Again, maybe this is a misconception on my part, but most of the posts I have read and can remember for SVS, HSU, and Sunfire, have dealt with getting the highest SPL into the room, and not with getting the most accurate and deep bass output. At any rate, I appreciate and welcome all input, and thank you for responding already.

I am new to the whole subwoofer shopping experience, and trying to make heads or tails out of the current offerings, and am in need of some guidance from those who know more than I. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I am of the opinion that a subwoofer should play down to 20 Hz. minimum, and actually should extend below that. If it cuts off at 25 Hz., or 40 Hz., I dont want it, and in my opinion, it is not a true subwoofer. I am also of the opinion that the subwoofer should actually not be noticed so much (when playing music, anyway), but rather the lack of it should be noticed (playing music with the subwoofer engaged should sound good, true, and accurate (not boomy, or thumping), and then if the subwoofer were suddenly switched off, you should notice that it is missing). The subwoofer should not be the main, most noticeable piece in the system. It should enhance your other speakers, not overpower them. I have been running Klipsch Fortes for my main speakers for a number of years, and these are rated down to 32 Hz., (verified with test material, it rolls off SHARPLY at about 32 Hz.). I am now running the Fortes as my surround speakers with Klipsch Reference Series RF-7 speakers for the mains. These too, are rated down to 32 Hz., yet testing with the same material shows that the RF-7s actually extend down to at least 20 Hz., thus I am in need of a TRUE subwoofer (one that can extend below 20 Hz.) to get any improvement in bass extension over what I currently have. The wife unit will not permit me to play things loud, so I am not looking for quantity, but instead QUALITY of the bass. It should be accurate, clean (free of audible distortion and no muddiness), no overhang, or blubbering (when the signal stops, the woofer cone better stop), and deep (low extension below 20 Hz.). I have read the WSR Essential Subwoofer Buyers Guide, and while I agree with some of the things Mr. Hardesty (Dr. Boom) states, I know that MY ears are going to be the final judges, however I am hoping to help come up with a short list from recommendations here, and from reviews such as those published in magazines, or on the web. In theory, the Feed Forward system of operation should be best, as those items that can create errors are looked at and removed prior to the signal being fed to the woofer cone. Servo Control should be second best, because of the tight control they can offer to keep things clean and accurate, however they are still trying to correct an error that has already been output by the woofer into the room where it may be audible, if your ears are good/critical enough. (The Mirage BPS-210 used both technologies; however it appears to have been discontinued.) Based on the reviews I have read thus far, I am considering the following subwoofers as main candidates to give a listen to (retail prices listed). Vandersteen V2W ($1295) Bag End Infra 18 ($1770) Mirage BPS-400 ($1300) M&K MX-700 ($1399) Paradigm Reference Servo-15 ($1500) Velodyne HGS-12 II ($2199) The Velodyne is a pricy item, and to be honest I would prefer to go with the HGS-15 (minimum) or HGS-18, but not sure I can convince myself to spend the extra bucks for them. (Im not sure I can convince myself to go the price of the HGS-12, unless it truly proves to be FAR superior to anything else I look at). As you can see from above, most of the subs listed are $1500 or under. As for the Bag End, Im not sure it is anything I will really consider since I cant go hear it someplace, even though it got a great review from WSR. To quote Billy Joel, you cant get the sound from a story in a magazine. The sub will be used for both movies and music (a good sub should be capable of doing either, equally well). This whole thing of being musical or movie oriented is in reality (I think), nothing more than the sub itself, putting emphasis in the area of the bass where most movie sound effects are occurring (35 Hz. and up), thus making it appear to be better for movies, because of perceived emphasis (thump). Im not stating the size of the room, because I am interested in QUALITY and not quantity (loudness), so I dont feel the size of the room to be relevant.

Thanks for the info, and the phone number. I figured being a drive replacement, that I would have to go through a dealer, and I wasn't aware that I could purchase the drivers myself directly from Klipsch. I'll have to give them a call and see what is available. The main reason that I thought about upgrading the drivers from the stock drivers was in hopes of improving performance (maybe a bit better bass response), and the cool look of the new copper coated drivers would be an added bonus. At any rate, I planned to replace BOTH drivers in the pair, even if I get the original one, figuring that it would provide a closer match sonically, to replace them at the same time. Thanks again, and any suggestion on which driver to upgrade to, would be wonderful!