KdAgain
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Posts posted by KdAgain
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Hi Rod
I think here is fine. By removing the 'top hat' of a Khorn and replacing with a mid and high driver motor board config, that you can more easily move around and point to the 'listening position', you get better perception of the sound and 'dimensionality' increases. Some don't need to do this in a room where the corners point to the ideal position. What is the ideal listening position? There is math and 'methods' but I just use my very experienced ears! Yes it doesn't look at pretty unless you rebuild a 'rotateable' top hat, but I'm lazy and I just love to play with different lenses I have built for the mid and high drivers (K55, K77 and Crites). I have used some Altecs and Beyma's but not happy with them in current config and would have needed to play with the crossover...which I avoided as I am simply not qualified and again lazy!
As to treatments, probably the single most cost effective & impressive improvement you can do to any listening environment...even makes a cheap system sound really good when done right. I have spent a great deal of time building bass traps and lookng at materials and ways to 'scatter' rather than cause unwanted reflections. Again using my ears with a little help from friends and relatives (does this sound better or worse...what if i shift this...etc). Lots of my ideas come from people experimenting with their ideas. There are no rules if you have a loving partner who doesn't care how the room looks. But if you don't have that luxury there are plenty of great looking products from a growing business 'Acoustic Room Treatments' -Auralex, Realtraps etc. Once I was able to control enormous bass in a small room I concentrated on diffussion to take out 'slap' and uneccessary rings & nodal interplay.
Keeps me off the streets and out of the wife's way!
All the best
Steve
When todays post appeared in my mail box I looked at this whole thread again. Then realized that I had not thanked you for your helpful and informative response to me. Sorry bout that, and thanks very much.
Rod
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G'day
I have been using Klipsch gear since 1977 and have run all of the heritage models and a few others. I currently run 2004 Khorns with a tractrix horn I built (thanks Al for the drawings) an Bob's tweet on a separate motor board. Didn't play with the crossover just aligned the mid and tweet more to centre of room and listening pleasure and kept bass bins tucked tightly into proper corners. Did lots of room treatment (key to getting the best out of a Khorn particulalry in small rooms). What a sound, the artists are in the room with me, it's almost 3D! I still get goose bumps and so do any that listen with me!
All the best
Would appreciate hearing about your room treatments; in the Architectural Thread if that's more appropriate. Also curious about your aligning of the mid and tweet more to the center of the room.
Thanks very much.
Rod
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Late to the party here, sorry.
I have used a product called E6000 with great success on virtually all substrates. It is about the same viscosity as silicon caulking. this stuff remains flexible like silicon, is water proof and very strong. Easy to apply but takes several hours to cure and gain ultimate strenght so you need to clamp some parts, the brads and small holes may help here to keep it in place while it cures.
Once it is dry, very very strong. Will definately work on both plastic and wood. Always a good idea to get rid of as much of the old adhesive as possible, the new bond is only as good as the weakest link in the substrate.
Years ago I used E6000 to glue and seal a small nylon pipe filling in a vinyl hose. Everybody told me it couldn't be done but it worked great.
I have found the Goop products to work similarly; Shoe goop, Plumbers Goop, etc. they all seem similar.
Rod
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Soundbound - Thanks for the link to more info on your build.
JBryan - Thanks for showing what you did. I like keeping the Khorns as original as possible. And after the warnings from heli001 on possible delamination in my old bass bins not having to put fasteners in it has some appeal.
Did you find the braces and the top necessary? Seems like I've seen some old threads where the false corners are free standing. Or perhaps that requires more structure such as internal 2 x 4 bracing that I believe PWK used.
Love those Oris horns!
Rod
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Here is what I did.
Thanks for showing it. Interesting way you integrated the old bass bin. It's a little difficult to see much detail though - Do you have a thread showing more on it?
Looks like you have the tweeter and squawker aimed down a bit. Do you notice much difference doing that?
Rod
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I dunno, I had ok corner, not a great seal though. I built them as a budget system and have about $700 into Klipschorns and enclosures. For my purpose with some coner gain to begin with they do what I want. The 48 inch dimension is a consequence of a sheet of plywood being 4 x 8 feet from what I have read. Look at the TSCM that Klipsch engineered
http://forums.klipsch.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=tscm&o=Relevance
for further info. My sides are effectively 40.25 inches long (see diagram), corner to end of mouth.
Thanks for your further explanation. I think I read the same thing somewhere about 48" being handy as it is a plywood sheet. So no magic calculations went in that I guess.
Thanks for the link on the TSCM - interesting stuff!
Rod
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http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/142576.aspx?PageIndex=2
Hi Rod
I built these enclosures for some budget/distressed
Khorns that I got off of ebay. These clearly aren’t for everyone, but they do
work for me. The mouth braces on the back side of the enclosure have been
removed now and I can slide them deep into a corner or pull it away from the
wall and still work ok. My guess is they work better shoved into the corners as
far as possible. I removed the backboard reflector from the Khorns for them to
fit with the front of the khorn flush with the front of the enclosure. If you
left the rear reflector on, them a 1/2 inch trim around the perimeter of the
mouth would bring them flush. They are modeled after the Klipsch TSCM theater
bass bins.Thanks for showing your handywork. Your build appears to be straight across in the front, in other words not angled at all from the front plane of the bass bin. I just took a tape measure to determine how far out from the corner the sides would be and it's about 36".
My understanding of true false corners is that they should be minimum of 48' from the corner. Perhaps this is why you suggest that they may perform better close to the corner.
It seems to me that false corners should perform better than this approach or the enclosed backs especially with the Khorns well out from the corner, but that may not be the case. I guess there probably is no one who has built both that could comment?
Any other thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rod
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Rod,
I would suggest building the false corners as opposed to adding the backs. The older K Horns used 1/2 ply for the cabinet and with age it has more than likely become somewhat brittle and flakey (delaminated). it is almost like dry rot on a lot of the older cabinets that i have seen. Trying to screw into it may become cumbersome and do damage that would be tough to repair. You would probably have a tough time getting it sealed properly, without adding a lotof filler, glue and screws. The false corners do not impact the speaker cabinet at all and would probably give you a better seal in the long run.
JMHO,
W. C
W. C.
Thanks very much for your warnings on the possible delamination of the old plywood. Nothing shows on the visible edges, but that may not be at all indicitave of the hidden inner layers. This possibility certainly argues for false corners.
Rod
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Within a couple of months I'm going to build one or the other for our 1958 Khorns but am having trouble deciding which way to go.
Aesthetically and space wise the enclosed backs are certainly the winner, but wondering what other tradeoffs there may be in the two options?
In our 5.1 system we would like to have the back corners about 2 feet out from the room corners and somewhat toed in. Think I may have read that with the enclosed backs the Khorns should be closer than that. They are on the long wall in our 19' x 13' HT room.
Not sure this will have an effect on the choice but I will also be converting the Khorns to 2 way active EQ with the Goldwood GM-450PB 2" CD Horns (similar to the PAudio PH-4525) with BMD-750 drivers.
We have a Danley DTS-10 sub so if we lose a little bit of the low end it's not a disaster. But what I would not like to lose is the wonderful way that the Khorns load a room with sound.
Any ideas would sure be appreciated.
Happy New Year!
Thanks,
Rod
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Home built Win 7 HTPC. Quad core CPU, 4 GB RAM. Previously had all media (several TB) on a Windows Home Server. Am in the process of migrating media HDDs to HTPC. JRiver MC17 Playback Software with it's Media Server enabled to share media to several other PCs. Asus Essence ST with H6 Daughter Card soundcard - analog outs straight to power amps. 5.1 Audio for playback of ripped and downloaded audio as well as video including BlueRay.
Very happy with what we have.
Rod
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I have tried mightily to use ITunes for distribution of media and I
can say this - DON'T USE IT. It is terrible at management and client
access.I've used a couple others in the past, Winamp, Music Match, WMC (Music Match ruled them all but was purchased by yahoo and basically shut down), I think I'll try the Jriver next, based on recommendations here.
When you try Jriver MC17 you may at first find a few things confusing. It's an incredibly complex program in what it can do and for the power it has I believe thay have kept it as user friendly as possible. If you do have any difficulties you will find their forum to be very helpful and friendly - like here.
I've used it for a few years, initially just for audio because of their outstanding SQ reputation. Now we have a full 5.1 Home Theater setup with it. Besides critical audio listening we use it for Movies, both DVD and BlueRay, as well as TV watching and recording. Recently replaced SageTV with it.
Rod
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As I mentioned in your other thread JRiver Media Center 17 has a remote control application for Android phones called Gizmo. I have no experience with it but have used MC for several years and find it to be an outstanding program for it's SQ and organizational abilities.
rod
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Check out JRiver Media Center 17. I believe they have something called Gizmo that allows MC to be controlled from an Android phone. They have another remote application call Tremote. I have no experience with either.
I have foundJRiver to be an outstanding Media Organizer as well as an extremely high SQ player. They also have an excellent and helpful forum.
Rod
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If you don't mind paying about$50 "for a quality program" I strongly suggest you look at JRiver Media Center 17. Using their 'Secure' ripping mode will give you as high quality of rips as any program out there. JRMC is highly rated in the computer audiophile community.
As others have suggested, do your ripping to FLAC. It's a 'Lossless' form of compression and has the ability to store a lot of metadata with the files. With MC17 you can easily make copies of the files to various MP3 qualities. But keep your originals as FLAC so if you get your computer hooked up to your playback system everything will be available in the best quality.
If you have "A ton" of Cds you will also find it to be by far the best program for organizing your media. It can a times be a little difficult to learn some parts of the program but they also have an excellent & helpful forum.
I started using it just for audio. We now have all our DVDs ripped to it and have switched from SageTV to it for our TV recording and playback. The program has incredible picture quality if you're into such things.
They come out with a new version about once a year, and it is being constantly improved/updated throughout the year.
I'm not on commision but obviously am very pleased with this program.
Rod
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What do you all think of using the term 'clone' for copies of Klipsch speakers? Such as a 'LaScala Clone'. Not a 'Klipsch La Scala Clone'. Or would it be better to use the Klipsch name with clone to give them some credit? Methinks this is a very fuzzy area.
Rod
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Check out ChaseHomeTheater.com subs. Probably the best bang for the buck out there now in really good sealed subs. They also have a very helpful forum. Suggest you put a post on it explaining your requirements and budget. Bet you wont regret it!
Have fun!
Rod
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Well Rod, see what happens when you stay away so long... lol...I haven't posted any photos since about 03 and don't seem to be getting anywhere. I first tried going to Options in Compose to add a single photo. It showed the file saved but it didn't appear in my Compose or Preview screens. I then uploaded the photo to Photobucket and did an Insert photo. Still didn't show up.
I'm wondering if perhaps they show up in the actual published post but not in the Write a New Post part. So here I'm doing an insert Image from PhotoBucket:
And nothing shows. So I'm going to post this and if there is not an included photo above I would sure appreciate any tips as to what I may be doing wrong.
Thanks,
Rod
LOL. Actually I have been around fairly regularly, just haven't had a need to post a photo.
Rod
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I gather it worked. With the upload system it won't show until you post.I thought that I should be able to see the photo before posting it, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
As for other methods, I can usually copy a jpeg pic by right-clicking on the pic to bring up the right-click menu, clicking "copy," and then going to the reply dialogue box, right-clicking, and "paste." I rarely upload pics any more.
I don't think you can move it around with copy-and-paste, but you can easily click the pic to bring up handles that let you delete or resize it.
Yes it did work. Just seems weird that it doesn't show until you post.
And thanks for the copy/paste suggestion - I should have thought of that!
Rod
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http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/68519/669320.aspx
In the above thread, Bob shows a picture of a tweeter and the Z brackets.
Well that sure shows them! Thanks. Guess Klipsch doesn't feel it important to do the same thing with the mid horn - or they can't be bothered.
And thanks also for the idea of swapping motorboards between speakers. After you wrote that it occurred to me that I could also just put them upside down within the same cabinet to reverse.
Rod
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Found this picture of the interior of a stock top hat. The tweeter has Z brackets.
Thanks Rudy,
A little difficult to see how the Z bracket is working but I think I get the idea. I believe I've figured out how to do the same thing with wood. It will get the horn flush with the front of the motorboard but be removable from the rear. Then the grill will cover the whole motorboard and wrap around the sides to look like the original one.
I also want to leave room for a tweeter in each one just in case I want to use one later. Since the PH4525 horn takes up almost all the vertical space available the tweeter will probably be mounted to one side and vertical. I'm trying to decide which side to put it on. My inclination would be to put it on the right side of the left speaker and vice versa for the right speaker. This would put it furthest away from any side wall reflections. Any thoughts on that?
Rod
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Thanks again Rudy for all your information. Looks like I'll have to get real creative to mount it behid the grill and not have it too far back in the top hat.
When I get my MiniDSP for Active Crossover and EQ I'll do some experimenting before making anything final. I really am curious if mounting behind the motorboard has any detrimental affects. Surprised Klipsch woull do it if it's an issue, but they are in business to make money and have to keep things as simple as they can.
Hope you are having a great weekend!
Rod
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Thanks for the helpful photos and descriptions Rudy. Brings up more questions.
1. When you put the grill on the Khorn did you just tack (or staple?) it across the front? Seems that the horns being front mounted would bulget the cloth out.
2. Did you wrap the cloth around the sides?
3. How would you remove a horn if you wanted to?
4. I'm wondering if the newer Khorns mount the horns from the rear of the motorboard. Then at least they could be removed.
5. If 4 above is true does the rear mounting have any negative affects on the SQ?
Enough for now!
Thanks,
Rod
On edit and after rereading your post perhaps even on the Khorn you did not cover the horn with cloth. If so I still wonder how the new Khorns do it?
Rod
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The newer grille designs do not include
those vertical strips you show on yours. The newer grillles have a solid
piece of lumber along the front, with holes cut for the mid and tweeter
horns. I made my own front to allow the PH-4525 to fit centered on the
speaker. I will look for some pictures of that project.
Hi Rudy,
I was hoping you would chime in here. Thanks!
Good to know about the new grills being a solid piece of wood. As tight as the 4525s sit in the tophat there wont be much wood left top and bottom though.
For our LS clone I'm making a separate top hat that is similar to the Khorn top hats. We want a grill on it and hope to have it be much like the Khorn grill.
Hope you can find some photos of how you did these horns and grills in your Khorns.
Thanks again,
Rod
PEQ question...
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Coytee,
Please keep in mind what the PEQ values you are using are intended for. They were put forth by Danley to mostly flatten the FR at the MOUTH of the DTS-10. They can be a good start but should not be used as the only correction. With any sub (or low freq speaker) the room plays a huge part in the actual response at the listening position. In fact many users don't even bother with those settings. They use a calibrated mic at the LP and RTA program such as REW and develop their corrections based on those results.
If you don't already have it I strongly suggest that you get REW and a calibrated mic, or some other such system. Otherwise you are 'flying blind'.
Great sub, isn't it? We've had ours quite a while and it plays wonderfully with our two old Khorns.
Cheers,
Rod