[Klipschorns: Can I seal/close the back w/ plywood or smth. else instead of adding walls to the room? (Do not kill me for asking!)]

Bob Green's (CB) closed-back's (mod) is the best LF from a Khorn that I have ever listened to. ( off and on starting in '68)

He is a great guy and I'll bet that he would help you out.

tc

Is this a mod that is shown somewhere in the Forum? I did some searching and couldn't find it.

Thanks,

Rod

[HTPC and sound card / sound quality... please help]

I'm doing your option 2 with the Asus Essence ST Soundcard and am very pleased. Had been using it in old Dell XP machine, but recently built a new quad core HTPC. We have all media stored on a WHS server I built. Had to order another HD for it as our two 1.5 tb drives are almost full. We have all our photos, hundreds of CDs ripped to FLAC, about 150 ripped DVDs and about two hundred movies recorded from TV.

For music I use JRiver MC15 because I believe it is the most accurate player. For ripped DVDs (soon BDs) and TV and recorded TV I'm using SageTV. Our mains are Klipschorns, centers are temporarily Heresy's. They will later become the sides when I build a new center. Sub is a Danley DTS-10. Temporarily using some old KEFs for sides. Our amps are a hodgepodge which will later be replaced with some Class D amps, except for the sub amp which is a Behringer EP 4000.

So we are basically going straight from the soundcard to the power amps and am quite pleased with the results. I feel the Essence ST is a keeper. Also we don't have a hiss problem with it. Something to think about is by not needing an expensive receiver you can put the money into better amps or speakers. And I agree with you that it would take a very pricey receiver to get the same quality DACs that the Essence ST card has.

We aren't doing any gaming. I know a fellow on the JRiver forum with the same card who is though if you would like me to put him in touch with you.

Good luck.

Rod

[JRMedia Center]

It's real easy to use. And so are the converters. I just like using one program for as much as I can as log as it does the right stuff.

Regardles of how you do it isn't it great to have it on the computer? We have all our music, photos, movies and recorded TV on our Windows Home Server.

Rod

[JRMedia Center]

I use dbPowerAmp as my CD ripper.

Rudy - Why do you do that? MC's secure ripper is generally acknowledged to be one of the best - if not the best.

Rod

[JRMedia Center]

I've been using JRiver MC for quite awhile. Have been using it on our HTPCwith XP but will soon be upgrading to Win 7. We use it with Asio on our internal Asus Audio Essence ST 5.1 card. Had previously used it with our EMU 0404-USB 2 channel DAC.

It's a very powerful program for database management of all your media. Quite a learning curve, at least for me, on using some of those features. Lately they have done a lot of improvements on their audio portion and have a bunch of adjustability for setup in a multi channel environment. It seems fairly recognized that their SQ is among the best of the players.

I have long wanted one Media program for everything - audio, video TV and Photos and have been hoping JRiver could be the one, especially because of their great SQ. Unfortunately I think that's a long ways off. We have been using it for Audio and video (ripped DVD's) and SageTV for TV including PVR functionality.

When we recently got our HD plasma TV n our HT room I was hoping to be able to use it with JRMC. Since we only have Cable here (no OTA) the Hauppauge HD PVR looked like the only device to use to record HD TV. JRMC claimed support for it, but that ended up being very minimal - not even an on screen guide that would work with it.

So we are having to stick with SageTV for the TV end. To allow use of one program as much as possible (WAF) we are now using SageTV for everything but critical 2 cannel listening. In our living room we have a Sage HD100 extender that is fed by our WHS server on the network. With a Harmony One remote and using Sage my wife can easily do everything - audio, video, tv, and even show her extensive photo collections that are picked up in Sage from our Adobe Photoshop Elements catalog on the server. We will eventually end up with a Harmony One remote in our HT room controlling the HTPC.

BTW we are feeding our HTPC straight to our power amps - no receiver or pre/pro. I'm very happy with the setup with the only downside being we can' feed external signals to the HTPC. But that should be the topic of another thread.

Thanks Rudy for starting this thread. I do think JRiver deserves a lot of credit for creating a very versatile player that has outstanding SQ. BTW Rudy I'm 'nwboater' on their Forum. Saw your post there the other day.

Rod

[Hughes AK-100 Expander/Compander]

For those with PC based audio systems there is the SRS Audio Sandbox and the updated version now called SRS HD Audio Lab. http://www.srslabs.com/store/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=38 I haven't tried it yet but recalled reading a review on an audio forum:

http://audioaficionado.org/digital-music-servers/69-review-srs-audio-sandbox-has-dsps-time-come.html

It is definitely not marketed in the audiophile world and I was disappointed to learn that it doesn't support Asio, although maybe the newer version does. Interesting that this review related it to the Hughes unit. When I get some time I may play with it.

Has anyone here tried it?

Rod

[HERESY HBR I Xover smoothing modification]

djk & DrTube,

Based on your recommendations I went ahead and ordered the resistor and caps from Madisound. I got all new Bennic Poly caps for the crossovers while I was at it. Did get Poly for the 33 Mfd but guess I could have saved some money on Electrolytic there.

I'm really looking forward to trying out these mods. Bet I'll be able to put my treble tone control back up a bunch!

Thanks to both of you for all your help on this.

Rod

[HERESY HBR I Xover smoothing modification]

djk - Thanks very much for your helpful post. I'll go ahead and get my other parts from Digikey, and go to Madisound for the crossover parts.

It will be helpful to have the 20-25% rule of thumb for resistors.

Thanks for the links on the caps and resistors. I notice the 15 Mfd Carli cap is 150 volts. Trust you feel this is high enough. Also since you didn't touch my question on "Audiophile caps" I also trust it's probably not worthwile to 'go there'. Sure a lot of Voodo in the topic - almost as bad as speaker wires and power cords!

Thanks again,

Rod

[HERESY HBR I Xover smoothing modification]

I am going to do the DrTube mods to my Heresy 1 (1983) heresy's and have some questions on the components:

1. The 12 ohm resistor. On similar mods I have seen 20 watt resistors called out. Would that be appropriate here?

2. For the 15 MFD 250 volt capacitor.

A. Is electolytic okay or should it be non polarized?

B. Is it worthwile to go to some of the more 'Audiophile' caps, or is general purpose okay?

c. Any suggestion as to the particular caps to use? There are literally thousands available. I'm going to be ordering some other small parts from Digikey.com.

Thanks very much for your help.

Rod

[Small Room Acoustics ~ Diffusion]

"He goes on to say that “diffusion can be improved by using sound-scattering devices, irregular, curved and angled surfaces, and especially designed devices, often called diffusors. Perceptually, a diffuse sound field sounds spacious and enveloping."

That would be true; and is the basis for small room treatment methods, materials and techniques.

Most of the forums on small room acoustics that I periodically check out refer to absorption, not diffusion. Most of the photos which are supposed to represent well treated rooms show primarily absorption. Artto is one of the few exceptions to this. For several years now I have read with great interest of his techniques and results. I only wish I lived closer to him - I would certainly beg a listen!

I have also wondered if Klipschorns (which I own) need different treatment considerations than most speakers? I have come to somewhat of a conclusion that in a typical room that a combination of absorption, diffusion, and heavy bass trapping is perhaps the best answer. But how to learn to implement all of that is my dilemna!

Rod

[2 inch driver/horn upgrade question]

Whenever I get in a strong argument I always know I'm 'Right. I'm thoroughly convinced of it. Trouble is, the other person is just as convinced of his position. There is rarely a meeting of the minds! Just a lot of strutting and ruffling of the feathers.

The difficulty for both of you here is that you are businesses and you are only turning people off to consideration of your products. And further I believe both of your products somewhat compete with the owner of this Forum. Klipsch has been very gracious in hosting you here and I strongly suggest that you take any more of your disagreement offline.

Thanks,

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

here are some general comments

check out this link

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/58060-need-help-pa-crossover-please.html

for PA use, they are using 18db per octave at 1200hz.

it makes sense to me that if you are going to run these at high volume that the xover point needs to be set higher.

the manufacture says crossover at 800hz. but if you are ok with less power handling, i'm sure you can go lower. how much power can these things handle at 500hz, don't know, but it's certainly less than the rated power handling at 800hz.

don't forget the impedeance rises quite a bit below 800hz, why should we care?

above 800hz , the plot shows 8 ohms, a 24uf capcacitor will crossover at 800hz

below 800hz, the plot shows a big spike in impedeance, the same 24uf capacitor will now crossover at 400hz

so, it makes sense that the PA folks are crossing over at 1200hz, that will result in 600hz at the impedeance spike point.

400hz is below the manufactures idicated frequency response range.

I don't think the folks that are using these at home are really putting a lot of power thru them.

I do play things quite loud at times in our 19' x 13' x 7 room. Besides music we do a lot of movies.

I can understand your comments about the impedance changes affecting the crossovers. But since we will be using active crossovers with one amp per driver it seems that this should not be an issue. Or am I missing something?

If the above is a non issue, I'm still concerned about running them below their indicated frequency range. Rudy seemed pretty clear that he had a gap between 400-500. That is sure less than optimum. Also we don't know the power handling capability below 800 Hz.

As I mentioned earlier, I can't go the cost or large size of the huge Jubilee horns, but are there others that I should consider?

I wish I could do as Rudy did and build new bass bins. Unfortunately that's quite a ways down the road for both budget and time constraints. My compromise is to enclose the backs so I can pull them into the room.

I should also mentiion that my Khorns are 1958 vintage with the old wood mid range horns. Another option would be to keep the system as 3 way, but use the BM-D750s to replace the tweeters crossing over much higher than 400. This unfortunately would complicate the 'Active' crossover/amp system and would require a new cabinet for the new horns. This is not sounding like a very appealing approach.

Ugh!

Thanks everybody for all your input here.

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

I have both the k-69 and the d750's.

the d750s claim frequency response of 500 - 18khz with a recomended xover of 800hz

I think the MCM grand IV's uses this driver as a tweeter in a 4 way system.

If your going to use these other wise at a low volume, id cross them over using a steep crossover.

If you look at the plots for the driver, it look likes the impedance rises below 800hz quite a bit.

don't forget this is an 8 ohm driver, and not a direct replacement for the k-55.



Impedance

8 ohms

RMS Power Rating 100 Watts above 500Hz
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 108dB
Frequency Response

500Hz - 18kHz

Recommended Crossover 800Hz or higher
Voice Coil Diameter 2.84" / 72.1mm
Mount Type Bolt-on

speakerfritz - Thanks for the info. I'm trying to understand your comment about needing a steep crossover if using them at low volume (if I understood you correctly)?

I'll be biamping the Khorns and new center. Will be using a DCX-2496 for crossover and time alignment so hopefully will have enough flexibility with individual gain controls and crossover steepness.

I keep seeing the specs for frequency response and recommended crossover frequency and am a bit bewildered with the good results people seem to be getting with this horn'driver combination.

I'm open to suggestions for other combos, but can't go the expense or size of the big Jubilee horn. Said another way, I sure do like the price and size of the PH-4525 & BM-D750!

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

There is the issue of pushing these hard to get them to play down to 400, and I still don't know how much of a problem that may be.

Speaking from experience, I don't believe that you've got any worries there: I've been using one of my "leftover K69s" with a PH-4525 horn as a center channel with a Heresy bass in between two Jubilees. It sounds pretty good to me--crossed below 450 Hz. I'm using an EV Dx38 crossover and a Crown D-75A to biamp the center.

Chris

Chris - Some encouraging words there. How does the center horn do with those big ones on the Jubes? And the 'little' Hersey bass too? Doesn't seem like great timber matching, but I'm very pleased that you are pleased! Are you also running a sub?

Anyway thanks very much - you are giving me much more hope.

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

djk,

Very kind of you to offer a group buy. I'll certainly be interested once I confirm that this is the best way for me to go, ie with the khorns. There is the issue of pushing these hard to get them to play down to 400, and I still don't know how much of a problem that may be.

Any way of finding out the differences between the BM-750 and the BM-D750?

When I proceed I'll need 3 drivers and 3 horns for the 2 Khorns and the new center I'll build later.

Thanks,

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

djk - I checked the link you gave for the pdf of the BM-D750. I believe that's the one Rudy bought. But I'm curious about the first one - don't see a link to any info or pricing on it. It looks different, but do you believe it to be electrically and acoustically the same as the PAudio BM-D750?

Thanks very much.

Rod

[My turn to build JC's DBB]

SkyDover,

Thanks very much for your reply. I took a look at the drivers on the link - boggling the choices. Trouble is it's tough to predict the SQ. So for now, unless someone comes up with a better idea, I'll probably go with Rudy's BM-D750 selection.

Thanks for trying!

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

Rod, several comments here.

1) Yes, I did put the P. Audio combination in my Khorns at one point. One issue I ran into was that you are really pushing the BM-D750 to get down to 400Hz. That was one reason I kept searching for a bass bin that would better match the two way setup. I considered the Jubilee bass bin, the Jamboree, and the DBB. Since it would be my first build, and after many discussions with JWC and other owners of the DBB, I decided to go that route.

2) While I had my Khorns in 3 way, I ran some HF tests in my room to see how high I could hear. At about 17kHz, I could not hear much, if anything. So, I can't comment on the very high end of the 2" driver since I can't hear it anyway. But, what I can hear is more than adequate in the HF department. I do have a high shelf boost in my crossover to help out the driver keep a consistent level above 10kHz. Several of my posts have plots of the response in my room posted, so you can see the measurements I have taken.

3) I have researched drivers until I was going crazy. Very few reasonably priced drivers can do what the P. Audio driver can accomplish, that is why I ended up with it....at least from what I could research. I paid around $160 per driver, NIB for mine.

4) Purely by accident I found that the performance of this driver/horn combination is superb once you move the top hat away from the side and rear walls. That is an issue that is difficult to work around with a Khorn. I did get very good results when I first used them on a Khorn. However, when I finished the DBB build and properly placed the speakers in my space.....WOW, what a difference. The soundstage is simply amazing in my room. I never got that type of response with my Khorns, either stock, with JBL drivers on Trachorns, or with the P. Audio gear.

If you are ever in the Dallas, TX area, let me know and you are more than welcome to stop by and have a listen.

Rudy,

Thank you very much for your well thought out and helpful reply.

I understand why you made the change to the new bass bins, but I'm not prepared to go that far yet. It's been awhile since I read your trials and tribulations with the
PAudio Horns and Khorns - I need to go back and reread it all. I guess you had a bit of a gap between the low end of the PAudio and the bass bin, but how noticable was it?

I don't mind spending the money on the BM-D750 drivers, but as I asked in another thread wondered if there might be a generic equivilant to this one such as Skydover found for the horn. Re the top end of the horn, did you run any sweeps to determine how high it will go? I think it's rated to 17k.

I recently heard a very high SQ system (not Klipsch) with the speaker location optimized for soundstage and it was stunning. And with your results and others from getting the speakers out of the corners I can certainly see the large benefit of it. You suggested in another thread that I put backs on my Khorns to allow non corner location. I need to look further into the amount of work required, but will probably lean in this direction.

Rudy it's very gracious of you to offer a listen to your system. Don't know if we can ever do it since we live way up in British Columbia, but I would sure love to.

Thanks again,

Rod

[My turn to build JC's DBB]

Do you know of a cheaper version of the 2" driver that Rudy used, the P Audio BM-D750?

I'm not SkyDover, but what's the application? There are plenty of other cheaper drivers that should yield similar bandwidth at the expensive of a little extra distortion.

Also, does it need to be a 2" driver?

Dr. Who,

Thanks for your interest. I'm putting my response in Rudy81s thread on the "P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69). http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/134856/1402666.aspx#1402666 It seems the appropriate thread for this discussion.

Rod

[P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)]

Do you know of a cheaper version of the 2" driver that Rudy used, the P Audio BM-D750?

I'm
not SkyDover, but what's the application? There are plenty of other
cheaper drivers that should yield similar bandwidth at the expensive of a
little extra distortion.

Also, does it need to be a 2" driver?

The above was in Rudy81s thread on "JCC DBB Speakers". I thought it more appropriate to be in this thread so am responding to Dr. Who here.

The application is for my 1958 Khorns and a Center I hope to build later on. I have long planned to go Active and am in the process of acquiring equipment to do it. While Rudy had his Khorns he seemed very pleased with the PH-4525 & BM-D750 as replacements for his original mids and tweeters. If I can go 2 way, and at a reasonable cost as he did here I would like to.

I'm suprised that this combo is going high enough to eliminate the tweeter and I know it's pushing the bass bin to go high enough with these.

Thanks for suggesting cheaper drivers, but if there is much additional distortion I'm not sure I would want to do that. Re the 2" driver, it seems that most who have gone to the larger size are very pleased.

I sure appreciate your interest in this and value your expertise.

Rod

[My turn to build JC's DBB]

Yes, it's an OEM product, much of the industry is such these days. You never know who really makes what anymore! Goldwood makes that particular horn, P Audio doesn't make all their products, comes from different vendors of what they want to offer/carry.

SkyDover,

Do you know of a cheaper version of the 2" driver that Rudy used, the P Audio BM-D750?

Sorry Rudy for taking this OT - perhaps I should start a new thread.

Thanks,

Rod

[anyone know a cheap way to do an RTA?]

I used it on a 4 or 5 year old cheap Acer Laptop and it was fine. I'm not an expert on REW, but I don't think it takes a lot of horsepower.

I found the folks on the REW forum to be very helpful (kinda like here!) if you have any difficulties. I found the initial setup and calibration a little confusing, but once I had it running it was great. Haven't tried their latest version. Also I used it for subwoofer setup and I think it's primarily designed for low end work, but don't see why it wouldn't do what you need.

Good luck.

Rod

[anyone know a cheap way to do an RTA?]

Might REW do what you want? Can't beat the price - FREE!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Rod

[Bring Khorn Top Hats Into Room?]

Thanks guys for all the good observations and suggestions - really appreciate the effort to help!

Interesting about the shift in location between the bass and mid further affecting imaging. No question that time alignement is needed and the system I use when I go 'Active'will allow that. But I am now wondering about imaging problems with a stock Khorn. Besides the long time for the lows compared to mid tweet, there must be some location confusion as a result of the mid tweet being direct and the bass feeding two walls which gives that enveloping low end.

Since we have a Danley DTS-10 monster sub moving the bass bins out may not be such a problem. The sub covers from 11 Hz up to about 100 (if desired). And being a tapped horn it does it with great authority! But since we only have one and it will end up on the side wall we shouldn't cross it too high because of directionality.

I think false corners are probably the proper answer, but since we don't need the bottom end from the Khorns I'm going to consider enclosing the bins a la 60th anniversary edition. Thanks for the links on that. Only thing I'm wondering is that I vaguely recall reading something about losing some upper register bass as well as the lowest end. Think it was around 200. Not sure why this might happen though. In any case enclosing the bins looks like the cheapest and easiest (?) approach and one that hopefully will work fine for us.

We are madly trying to get things ready on our boat for our month long cruise in July. Wont have much internet connection while were gone, so if I ignore any posts here please understand.

Rod

[Music server program]

Probably the best and most versatile player is JRiver Media Center 15. Their SQ is considered one of the best in the Windows world. They are constantly developing it and it has a pretty good Library Server. It has a 'Secure Ripping' feature that supposedly will do as good a job as EAC - nice to have it all in one program.

BTW Itunes is generally considered to have excellent SQ on a Mac, but not PC.

I must disagree with an earlier statement that your ripped collection will never be as good as the CDs. With good ripping software to WAV or FLAC AND a good DAC you can get outstanding quality. But do you have a good DAC, or are you just using the onboard audio? There is a huge difference.

Once you have a good computer audio setup you can then download high resolution music files and get way better than CD quality. When I say download I mean from paid sites. hdtracks.com is probably one of the biggest of the audiophile sites.

Have fun,

Rod