j glenn Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 thinking of useing a ksw10sub with a klfc-7 center, runing sub off center then center off sub for fullness kg5.5 main, rb3 rears,ordering sv20-39+ with samson 1000amp. Any thourghs on this, yamaha 596 baby reciver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 j, i believe bobg from klipsch uses a center sub w/ nice results. i'd put it underneath in line w/ the center & be sure to set the center channel to large. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 I'm very pleased with my SW-12II and RC-7 combination delivering great bass and dynamics for the center channel. I have a big screen TV, so putting the center sub directly beneath the center speaker is not possible. Instead, I have that sub just to one side of the TV. Works great and much better than bass managing the lf info to the main sub/s in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j glenn Posted February 20, 2002 Author Share Posted February 20, 2002 will svs help me? I may put my ksw10-sub in back of the Tv.Space problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 J glenn, if the sub is set to handle only frequencies below about 80Hz, the location problem is eased by the "non-directional" character of waves produced. Of course, the big problem of multiple subs is standing waves caused by the interaction of bass waves longer than your room bouncing off objects and creating uneven bass. Certainly, standing waves can occur with one sub... but with each speaker added that puts out <80Hz waves the potential for problems is enhanced. Thus, location of the subs is a critical point within each room environment... and the winning combination can be quite strange... as indicated in Video Essentials set up disk. Playing some heavy bass material source music while walking around with an SPL meter can help you "map" your listening environment. Pay particular attention to corners,along walls, and in every bit of your proposed sweet spot. Standing waves will cancel each other out in some spots and double the bass in others. Remember, that standing wave dynamics change with the frequency measured. I have run as many as five Klipsch subs located in the classic positions (LMain, RMain, LSurround, RSurround, Rear Effects) with good effect. Then I switched to two great subs stacked and six identical mains on "SMALL" and the effect was startlingly better. A testing maxim to remember is, always engage your BRAIN before shifting into EAR. HornEd\ PS: Ye Garrards and little Fischers... it seems that I have "freaked" into the "700 Club"... PTL (Post Those Legends) works for me! (No offense to any other 700 Club or PTL is intended. H.E.) ------------------ "LEADING 8 LEGENDS INTO THE 6.1 GENERATION!" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main KLF C7's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra SubTower, Samson Megawatt Amp KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Bass friendly, oversized, glove-leather LazyBoy Recliners Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808 in search of the Eternal Tweak! Music Respite Room: Vintage Cornwall's in Transition Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-21-2002 at 07:42 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 HornEd, You and your standing waves,stop waving the smilies. I use three and four subs in two rooms and the way they are set up there are no problems with the ole nasty standing waves. Its just a matter of careful setup and experimentation. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 TheEar(s), I agree that multiple subs can be done as indicated in the above post. I agree that good results come from careful set-up and experimentation... including mapping your area with an SPL meter. BUT, the reason I call attention to the existence of standing waves is because many people without your experience do not understand the realities of physics as applied to their bass space. This Forum has new members and lots of lurkers that have not followed threads, products or concepts to TheEar(s) degree... and only a hundred or so are likely to read any given post (although I have participated in several that attracted over 1,000 hits). That's very few folks in the world of audio... and illustrates the need for repetition. I think that repeating a few concepts that may help some newbies better understand these bad boys of bass and the need for a robust center is a fair price to pay for all I have been able to learn from this Forum. So, my bass friend, I shall continue while I can... and trust that the waving smiley will alert you to skip the rhetoric. Bye for now... HornEd PS: I enjoy many of your positive suggestions while helping folks... even if some are redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 I can't believe it EAR, I actually agree with you in this instance! The Klipsch powered towers that I use X4 and the Klipsch subs I use for both center and LFE deliver nothing but HUGE low end in my HT setup.My SW8II center sub is not so tall as to interfere with the screen of my RPTV.It doesn't give the output of BobG's SW12II,but IMO is better that plunbing the lows to the L/R fronts.This setup is used primarily for HT but the popular DTS/DVD-A music DVD's are impressive also.There is little if any earnoticeable deviation in bass at any seating position,so I'm a happy camper.No need for bass shakers either. Give it a try j glenn.You might like it. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 Hey Keith, I am truly glad you are happy with your powered sub enhanced towers. You and Boa have to be two of the most prolific helpers of newbies on this net. You have different approaches to what's best for bass in your respective households... but seem to get along well with one another. And, T-T-K, no one on the forum has your skills at getting good deals. I didn't get a chance to try powered towers, but I built my own... five of them by stacking Legends on top of Klipsch Subs in the rear and along side for the mains. I was very happy with that sound as was reflected on my posts many moons ago. In my case, the acoustic problems with multiple subs positioned around the room did not allow me to get to the Dolby Minimum Theater Standard of 121.5 dB... so I tried an alternate path with a seven foot double sub tower and my ears tell me I get more with the rest of the speakers set "SMALL"... why should this make me a poor, misguided, bad guy? So, your happy and I am happy... and TheEar(s) is climbing the slippery slope of ultimate happiness... or so it would seem. The nice thing about this Forum is that we can respect each others paths to audio contentment... even if it is only a rest stop before the next round of tweaking. Your insights contributed much to my getting current with the 5.1 world of audio, Keith... I just wanted you to know that you and your insights are much appreciated in this corner of it. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 One comment. Using multiple subs causes LESS standing wave problems as compared to using a single sub, not more. A single sub will excite room standing waves causing peak to trough ratios of about 20 dB. Adding a second sub (in a different location in the room) will raise peaks a bit, but fill in troughs a lot. This can reduce peak to trough ratios by as much as half, providing much smoother bass across all listening positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 just to clarify, i was thinking of directionality issues above. but as bobg shows it is usually hard to put the sub directly in line w/ the center & the sub can be just pretty much near the center w/ still great audio results. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 Good point... and well taken, BobG. That explains why I had a good experience with 5 Klipsch subs in the same room. But, by that inference, wouldn't we all do better with a roomful of subs? How about a downside to multiple subs in multiple locations? It seems that you advised me in a post against that long, long ago. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 Actually, an infinite number of subs all at different locations would yield smoothest in-room response. Also slammin' bass! If you haven't checked it yet, see the article from Floyd Toole at the Harman Int'l. web site. There are actually several, but the one I mean is on room modes and the 6 axis model. Very helpful to understand the phenomena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 HornEd, Take it easy,I was joking about the smilies.Your posts help alot of BB members and visitors.I like to read your posts and your input is always positive here. BobG said "Actually, an infinite number of subs all at different locations would yield smoothest in-room response. Also slammin' bass!" NOW WHY DO YOU THINK I HAVE SO MANY SUBS? Response is even,smooth and I get this sub human sub bass any bass fanatic dreams about. Four Sunfires,a Velodyne,a Revel and an Aerial are all gooood.I'll add more this year,probably a SVS and JBL. I'll butcher standing waves if I have too. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 "One comment. Using multiple subs causes LESS standing wave problems as compared to using a single sub, not more. A single sub will excite room standing waves causing peak to trough ratios of about 20 dB. Adding a second sub (in a different location in the room) will raise peaks a bit, but fill in troughs a lot. This can reduce peak to trough ratios by as much as half, providing much smoother bass across all listening positions." "Actually, an infinite number of subs all at different locations would yield smoothest in-room response. Also slammin' bass!" Thank you. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Keith, the first time we communicated, I was running five subs with five mains set to "LARGE" and had been for an extended time. I spent a lot of time and research tweaking that set up... and caught a lot of flack from those who said I was bass maniac. I am now enjoying even better bass (dual stacked SVS Ultras) seamlessly integrated with my six identical mains (KLF 30's) and can exceed the Dolby Minimum Standard for Theaters by a shade over 1 dB. I've read many of Dr. Floyd E. Toole's papers and suggest at least http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/interviews/FloydToole/FloydToole.shtml as an easy read (compared to his more technical stuff that I am still trying to absorb, understand, and turn into helpful Forum comments). There you will find support for the multiple sub issue (which started my multi-sub period). You will also find that setting up multiple subs can be an extremely tricky issue best suited for people who know what they are doing. So I think what you and Ears are doing is great... because, hopefully, you know what's happening. The average Newbie doesn't have that expertise... and so I usually recommend a configuration that is easier to control in most acoustic situations. It's better to learn a few strokes in the backyard pool before you jump into the ocean. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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