Q-Man Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 EAR, I've been meaning to ask you this question for some time now. Which do you prefer, or how would you compare your Velodyne HGS-18 to your Sunfire Signature? I have a Signature and I'm toying with the idea of adding another one to my system. The Outlaw (ICBM) bass manager splits the LFE channel , and the other channels that are sent to the sub into stereo. It gives you left and right stereo sub channels. I may try this set up. A no brainer would be to just order another Signature and have an equal match. I read a review , that I think that I found on the SVS website or on the Hometheaterhifi.com site. This review has be pondering over which sub might be the best one to use with Klipschorns. The review compared the following subs while using Klipschorns as the main speakers. I was trilled to have someone blending them with with the Klipschorns. He compared the SVS CS-Ultra, Velodyde HGS-18, Klipsch KSW-15 , Klipsch RSW-15 and a couple others. But, no Signature in the line up. So, I'm counting on your ears to help me. The SVS CS-Ultras were tops in SPL, but introduced some lower end harmonic distortion. They had no problem keeping pace with the Klipschorns The HGS-18 was second in SPL and didn't produce any harmonic distoration. It was the most accurate sounding of the bunch. It did however fall short of keeping up with the Klipschorns in one test. The other subs didn't compare in my opinion. I wish the Signature was included in the comparison. I liked what he had to say about the HGS-18. He couldn't say enought about the sound quality and how accurate it is , even at it's bottom end at max. volume. I'm a little affraid about the statement on it not quite keeping pace with the Klipschorns durning one demo track. I could judge this better if you can tell me how the HGS's SPL compares to the Signatuer. If it can't at least play as loud as the Sunfire, then it wouldn't do for my system. The HGS-18 can be had on ebay from $1850.00 to $2000.00. The Ultras could be the main left and right sub for around $2400.00. With a little loss in sound quality to the HGS, but a gain in SPl. Then I could always use the Signature for a dedicated center channel sub. I can get a Signature from a dealer for $1800.00, or on ebay for $1300.00 to $1400.00. Right now I'm leaning towards another Signature. It would be cheaper, matches what I have, and I like mine with the Klipschorns. I'm just looking at these other options. You know how it goes, never satisfied. Thanks, Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 27, 2002 Author Share Posted February 27, 2002 Horn Ed, My front effect companion . You can add in your two cents on your Ultras if you like. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Q-Man Here goes... The Sunfire Signature is about 3-4dB's shy of the much larger HGS-18 at 30Hz.With two Signatures you beat a single HGS-18 in output at 25 and 30Hz,why do I measure at 25-30,because that is where mid sized subs should give big output. *Before you read please note my Rat Shack SPL meter may not be dead on accurate.Its no reference tool,just an inexpensive $35CAN dB meter. The HGS-18 will give true 16Hz where the Sunfire Sig. sinks deep and has poor output.When I use a single Singnature I get around(measured with my trusty Rat Shack meter)I get 114dB at 30Hz(the Signature is almost corner loaded,I sit near the back wall,maximum bass boost!),this is huge.In my lager room I lose 7dB's! WIth the HGS-18 I belted 117dB at 30Hz in the small room and again a 7dB drop in the large room. Two Signature subs will give you 6dB extra,just shy of the large SVS subs.Quite a feat I tried the SVS Ultras powered by the mighty Carver TFM-75( 1000W RMS per channel full bandwith into 4 Ohms)dual mono and I blasted the Ultras over 125dB's at 30Hz in the small room(corner loading and all). The meter was reaching its limits and my ears were hurting,in the large room I could reach 116dB's at 30Hz!Huge output even considering these are BIG subs powered by an amp capable of 1KW RMS per cahnnel! I am quite sure two Sunfire Signature subs will give you all the power a sane(not TheEAR)human may want or ever need to piss the whole street. I did an experiment a few months before I started posting on this board.I borrowed two Sunfire Signature subs and used all three as ONE.OH BURP Inasane,over 120db at 25Hz in the small room,INSANE. From three tiny(well compared to the HGS18 and many oil barrels from hell). I may add a Super Junior,Mark IV and Signature new units when they come out.Just for the heck of it. Now if Sunfire could just build a stackable modular Super Sunfire using the new JL Audio 13W7 woofers.AH bass heaven would be so close. I am thinking about replacing my El Cehapo Denon 5800 by the Sunfire pre/pro.The Sunfire AV center has three subwoofer outs!YES I'll just split each in two and voila. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Hey TheEars, if you're looking to unload that "el cheapo" 5800... You know who to ask! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hey, Seb, I left a reply for you on the "Picture of my SVS woofers" thread. Well Q-man, recluse to recluse, your question has suddenly become more interesting to me than you may have thought. This afternoon I concluded a deal with the edster00 to buy a pair of walnut K-horns and a walnut Belle... all late models with the updated crossovers. They will be added to the music room with the existing vintage pair of walnut Cornwalls. So, my friend, you will get more than passing interest in your question. One of the reasons I bought a pair of the first batch of SVS Ultras is that I wanted something that would keep pace with Klipschorns, scrape bottom, reach the select the power amp and do the music proud! I took a chance on SVS based on extensive communication with Tom Vodhanel. I expect we will be chatting again shortly... particularly about that distortion bi I like gut level bass you can feel... yet bass that doesn't betray the music. I like organs... bottom scraping organs, and big bass drums. Did you know that a big bass drum get lower than almost any sub can go? So, when the K-horns get here next week, I will likely see what they can do alone and together to seamlessly extend the bass. Right now, they seamlessly extend the bass of the six KLF-30's to below 20 Hz. I like it smooth... and real as it can get! I have always liked the Velo 18 HGS as an outstanding example of its design type... and I think one would do because hitting Reference Level is not as important to me on the music side of the house. Anyway, like Boa's getting a positive answer to his left field question about Madagascar, you can never be sure what horn HornEd will come up with next. Give me a chance to regroup... I don't have all that Heritage firepower you have... I've gotta hit the books . HornEd PS: Oh, yeah, the Legends HT is for movies... the new stuff is just for music. ------------------ "LEADING 8 LEGENDS INTO THE 6.1 GENERATION!" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main KLF C7's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra SubTower, Samson Megawatt Amp KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Bass friendly, oversized, glove-leather LazyBoy Recliners Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808 in search of the Eternal Tweak! 2 or 5 CHANNEL MUSIC RESPITE ROOM Walnut Klipschorn Mains, Belle Center, Cornwall Rears Under construction. Tubular Research continues.... Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Seb, I have a buyer for it,I will not lose too much,besides its COD.I sold some inexpensive pieces a few times in the past and some goons were slow to pay,now all sales are COD. By the end of April my Denon should be gone,and Sunfire pre/pro will do full justice to my amps. HornEd, Yes the SVS Ultras "scrape" the bottom octaves well,they are awesome HT subs and great music subs.But for music the HGS18,Revel B15 and my face sub the Aerial takes the music crown easy. The Aerial has tremendous output,16Hz output to put to shame most 18" subs and bass quality you dont hear in any subs but the Pro JBL's and JBL Ti-K subs.A reference product,with a finish quality matched by Dynaudio and B&W Nautilus. For the money I agree the SVS line is a top choice,I cant wait to get the green to buy a pair of SVS SS subs.Maybe they will replace the Aerial(as much as I would like,I doubt). TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Congrats on the Khorn's HornEd...*cheers* Even though you are a "Legend" yourself, Welcome to the Heritage Family, oh yes . TE, definite thanks for "this" read, I appreciate your thoughts in previous posts and emails as a Khorn owner, the Sunflower kicks...as I said before, haven't met a match yet(how right you are). Always liked the VelHGS-18 musically, and the M&K350II. RSW15 not here yet(ugh)......SVS, undecided, thought of the 36-20PC. Only want 1 sub..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Ear, Thanks very much for your reply. I think I know what I want to do now. When I get my updated Signature back from Sunfire, I might sell it. I would like to keep it, but after buying the McIntosh amp and some misc. items to go with it, I could use the money. The Signature sells on ebay for $1300.00 and up. If I decide to sell it I'll put it on for $1100.00. As I said, I have always liked this sub with my Klipschorns. But, after reading the review and getting your opinion on the two subs, I think I'm going to go with the HGS-18 . I should like the HGS even more. If I can't find it in me to sell the Signature, then I'll use it as a center channel sub. It will fit in front of the TV. It's time to start shopping for the HGS-18. Maybe in the furture I'll get another one for the stereo effect . What's this about an Aerial? Darn! Now I have to look that one up. Probably too expensive. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 The Aerial Acoustics SW12 retails for $5000US and in canada will run you a solid $8000CAN! Not cheap While not cheap the Aerial eats the HGS18 and Revel B15.Eats them in quality and output,down low. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Q-Man: I read a review , that I think that I found on the SVS website or on the Hometheaterhifi.com site. This review has be pondering over which sub might be the best one to use with Klipschorns. Do you have the link for that review? sounds interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Horn ED, First of all, I wouldn't be too concerened with the lower end harmonic distortion with the Ultras. The review was very favorable about the clean sound that they produce. It just wasn't quite as accurate as the HGS. I'm going to try to find the link, so you can read it yourself. Since the HGS keeps pace with the K-Horns, in most cases, I'm going for the slightly cleaner sound. I just called a dealer and his lowest price on the HGS is $2500.00. If I don't feel comfortable with the $1800.00 to $1900.00 ebay price, then I will have to pay the $2500.00 In that case I might go with the Ultras and have my stereo subs with a little more punch. Decisions,decisions. Now your really living up to your name. Horn Ed should have fully horn loaded speakers. Q. ------------------ Q-Man This message has been edited by Q-Man on 02-28-2002 at 05:01 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 I found the review. Sorry ,but this little old cabinet maker isn't as smart as the rest of you. I don't know how to make it so you can just click on it. I'll have to have Mike come back over and teach me some stuff on this darn comp.. The review was from the SVS site. Go to svsubwoofers.com. Click on (Reviews) in the upper rt. hand corner. Then click on,( Discover Brian's entire review )to the lower right. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Thanks Q-man! You are still the Horn Loaded Champ of all time in my book! But it is a relief to finally track down the right horns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 q, i love my hgs-18 w/ MY klipsch but i highly recommend you demo it 1st w/ the khorns. many khorn owners & even the tech @ velo (kurt) say that 1 hgs isn't loud or efficient or "fast" enough for khorns. of course w/ like quad speaks it's great (& i think w/ my klf & cornwalls). but just to make sure demo it if you can. or maybe look into the ears' aerial. funny thing about the hgs is the reviews really vary apparently according to tastes or set-ups. some proclaim it a great HT only sub while others call it very musical. i think it's both but situations do certainly vary. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by boa12: funny thing about the hgs is the reviews really vary... I tend to think that this topic (as well as many others in the world of audiophiles) is kind a subjective thing... I think there is not such thing as a "fast" sub, the frequencies are played or not... there is no way to play them slow or fast, the term (for me) means more like resonances than speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 man, i agree. that's why i used the "". ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 A well set up Velodyne HGS-18 is "musical",unless you want upper bass the HGS-18 was not designed for. I sometimes hear "the Sunfire Signature is so slow" well BS,its a SUB WOOFER not a midrange dammit. I even heard that my Aerial is slow!HA HA HA this has to be the greatest lie in all audio.A lie made up by an ignorant who reads too many web reviews done by wannabe "award winning" reviewers. Its like I woould say " B0$e makes the most natural and detailed speakers for audiophiles" MUA HA HA HA TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 I just read that review again, because it's been about a year since I first read it. It said that the Ultras don't have a crossover. Does that mean that you can't adjust them to roll off at a desired frequency? I better go back and read more about them on the web site. I never had my Signature above about 50Hz. I also don't plan on adjusting any sub that I use to play higher then that. I want the Klipschorns to produce all the sound above that. Maybe the Ultras wouldn't be for me. Before I say more, I better go read about them. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 q, you're icbm attached to the sub preout will handle the crossover (well at least allowing a 40 or 60hz setting). when using the sub preout you shouldn't use the crossover on any sub unless you wanna cut off some lfe. that's why svs doesn't use a low pass crossover - shouldn't need one especially if you have an adjustable crossover before it like w/ the icbm. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Boa12, I know that in the ICBM manual, it says to turn the sub crossover all the way up. I didn't try this, I thought this would be wrong. Maybe I've been missing something here. For argument sake, let's forget about the ICBM. I'll get back to that later. In most processors you you have options. One is to set the mains to large or small. Another is to send the LFE channel to the mains only, sub only, or to the mains and sub. My thinking here is that the mains, in my case Klipschorns, will reproduce any any sound down to 45Hz. (maybe lower), better then any sub will. So, this has been my starting point when setting the sub crossover. I try to adjust the sub to pick up the low frequencies just above where the mains begin rolling off. Isn't this what they mean by adjusting your sub to blend in with your mains? Or, are they just talking about the volume? Also, arn't low frequency test tones designed to show you where your speakers are rolling off? This way you know where to adjust your sub crossover to pick up the slack. The LFE channel is being sent to the mains, in this case, so how can I be missing any of it? If I set the sub crossover all the way up, then the sub is also reproducing some of the same frequencies as the mains. Say 45Hz.to 100Hz. That to me doesn't sound desirable. This could be why some say subs are slow. They are reproducing frequencies that they are not intended to. At least for bass horn mains. Subs probably blend in better with conventional speaker, since they both use the same type woofer box design. Does this make any sence ? Am I off base here? Q ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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