Adjusting LFE cut on Denon 3802 and KSW-12

[Iftach Landau]

To cut a long story short, I have replaced my Denon 3801 with 3802 (I was waiting for the 3802 black model, and local distributor can only supply gold, so I had an interim display 3801 model). I am using a full Synergy set (sf-2, sc-1, ss-1) and ksw-12 sub. The 3802 offers 3 cutting points to blend the bass: 80, 100 and 120 Hz (the 3801 was fixed). Ever since, I am in hell, toying and tweaking, changing the fronts from small to big and vice versa, changing the volume and threshold on the sub itself, I just can not find the right blend anymore. Sound is either shrill and thin, or totally boomy. Please help - Im going bezerk. P.S. Gold is not that bad if black is not available, right?

[Audible Nectar]

Maybe someone who owns a Denon can chime in here (since I don't), but I will post a few suggestions.

1. First, I think you can benefit from an SPL meter (sold in US for $40) and the Avia Guide to Home Theater (DVD for calibrating your home theater). This will assist you in setting up the proper balance between the 5 speakers and sub. The SPL meter is a Radio Shack sold item here in the US; the Avia is sold where DVD's are sold. I consider both items to be as important as any of my components - since they ensure proper setup and balance for my system.

2. I believe that you simply have too many variables to control at once. The trick is to make one adjustment at a time. First, I would start by setting the 5 speakers as small, with an 80 hz crossover. Then use the Avia/SPL meter to balance the output of the speakers, then listen. When you are using a sub and receiver with this type of bass management, you want your sub to handle the lowest bass, so typically, the other 5 speakers are set to small. Also, make sure that the sub's crossover (the xover control on the sub itself) is bypassed, since the Denon is functioning as the crossover.

3. If you make a change in adjustments from here, try to make only one change at a time. Too many changes at once make it difficult to tell what tweaks are helping, and which ones are not.

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Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains)

Klipsch Academy (center channel)

Klipsch Chorus (surrounds)

Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165)

H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon)

Bass Kit:

2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets

Crown CE 1000 amplifier

Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ)

Sources:

Pioneer DV-333

2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks

General Instruments cable box

Panasonic VHS PV-4459

Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound)

f> c> s>

This message has been edited by dndphishin on 05-16-2002 at 07:28 AM

[HornEd]

If it seems like it is impossible to get it exactly right by ear, Iftach Landau, it is! Human ears are great in many ways... but are not set up for the critical functions required to set up your system.

dndphishin is right on the money with his SPL meter and set-up disk approach. BTW, get the Analog version of Radio Shack's SPL Meter... it tends to be more accurate. It is a good idea to recalibrate your system two or three times a year... you will be pleasantly surprised if you do.

The sub you have is not the strongest... even by Klipsch standards... so I would not ask it to carry the ball any higher than the 80Hz option. Moving the subs location may help with the boominess. Try setting the sub in the sweet spot running some low bass material and test out different potential sub positions around the room. Using your Radio Shack SPL meter will help for frequencies between about 40Hz and 15,000Hz.

Be aware that most cone speakers (I am not sure about yours) have a frequency range where the low bass meets the mid bass where nasty things happen. That is part of the reason that "THX standards" and many manufacturers use 80Hz as the "SMALL" roll-off point. Obviously, astute Forum members, like Boa spend the money for better bass management which enables them to tweak subwoofer and speaker characteristics with much greater precision.

Remember, the acoustics of your listening environment will have a lot to do with your set-up... so experiment with toe-in toward the center of the sweetspot on all your horn equipped speakers. Horn tweeters and midranges need to be aimed with care... like a rifle... rather than generally pointing toward the sweetspot like a scatter gun. I use my old laser pointer sitting dead center atop the speaker to align my speakers toward a Styrofoam wig holder with crosses for ears. Yep, that represents my head in the center of the sweetspot. Careful aiming should provide the maximum benefit for your horns. Have fun! -HornED

PS: With your particular set of speakers and subwoofer, you may find setting your speakers to "LARGE" and carefully placing your subwoofer and then calibrating the whole system that you might get more out of a "phat" sound out of the Synergy and KSW configuration. -HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-16-2002 at 12:45 PM

[boa12]

yea IL as HE says, if you still can you may want to take that 3802 in for a 4802. the 4802 allows lower cross points like 60hz or 40hz which work better w/ bigger, lower handling speaks like our klipsch.

the 3802 goes up from 80hz. shoulda put in lower points too, but at least denon is starting to get it w/

more flexible bass management.

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My Home Systems Page

[Iftach Landau]

There is a reason I check the forum everyday, and it is you guys.

I am always amazed by the earnest, critical response. Thank you Boa and dndphishin. HornEd, you are the list Guru. I wanted top clarify some points. I live in Tel-Aviv. Here, Klipsch is not a household name. Friends who come over like to toy with the funny name; they shut up when the music starts, though. As a matter of fact, it took 3 years of anticipation till the local distributor of Pioneer started importing Klipsch speakers. Over here taxes on electronic entertainment are considerate 170 percent, to be precise, and I am not counting distribution and selling fees. This is why a pair of SF-2, 300 bucks in the States is about a grand here. This is why upgrading my sub is not an option now, nor is the Denon the 4802 is more than $2K the 5802 costs like a small car.

As a matter of fact, I have the Radio shack analog SPL meter.

Confused that I am, I am not sure how to use it correctly anymore.

How can I measure the blend I am striving for?

Thank you guys again. Iftach Landau

[boa12]

IL, sorry if i was brash suggesting that much more expensive denon. w/ some tweakin you should be more than fine.

as dnd said, 1st get all your settings right 1st before level/meter tests. denon: cross on 80hz, sub:yes, all speakers set small, mains+lfe (though shouldn't matter w/ small), speaker distances set. as for ksw: turn output to about half way & crossover control all the way up to 120hz.

then go to denon test tones & your meter set on C-weighted, slow response. ideally meter should be pointed up leaning slightly toward the front. & stationary (i can stick mine in the top between the couch cushions).

when the tones start adjust the denon's volume level to 0 (it's ref level). i'd go to the sub level 1st to make sure it's at 0db & then use it's (as in ksw) output control to go to 85db on the meter. then using the denon's speaker level controls, just adjust the other speaker levels up/down to also 85db.

then you're channel/speaker/sub levels are in balance

& the sub level is high enough to auto wake-up the sub when it gets bass or lfe.

if it's 2 shrill maybe you could bump up the sub output

a few db (again i'd use the ksw' output control). take it when you say too shrill w/ small settings that there's not enough bass.

this takes into account your sub is placed best & phase

switch at best position for you. whenever you change these repeat above steps.

as ed says if u have the room the best way for sub placement is to place the sub in your listening spot, then get down low around the room w/ some bassy stuff playing or the sub test tone goin & find where the bass is strongest & where you can then place the sub itself.

just a starting point above & some of my opinions only.

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My Home Systems Page

[belial]

Iftach - I also have the Denon 3802 paired with a KSW 12 sub.

I had the 3801 on demo before that, and when I switched I also thought the sound dropped in quality - that the 3801 sounded better, particularly on midrange sounds.

After much tweaking however, I am pretty happy with my setup (I also added external amps, but that is another story).

Everyone here has given you excellent advice, to which I would only add two suggestions:

One, I believe it is difficult to accurately measure bass sounds with the Radio Shack meter. It doesn't read low sounds to well. At least that has been my experience. I would suggest setting the bass level by ear, and using the meter to measure all other speakers.

Second, I have read that it is better to turn down the volume on the sub itself, and raise its volume by turning up the sub output on the Denon. That's because the sub's volume will also raise the volume of any interference in the line, whereas the Denon's volume level will only increase the signal itself. May make a difference, may not.

Good luck!

This message has been edited by belial on 05-20-2002 at 01:10 PM