With the placment I am stuck with, will bipoles as surrounds still work?

[Robertd]

From what I've read, bipole surrounds are best if placed about level with your listening positioning, some say a little behind and above, etc. The only place I can put surrounds are about 7'high on top of door frames. Havent measured but to get a sense just look at the nearest door in your house and picture a surround mounted right above the molding.

The problem is that I'm trying to best match the surrounds to this setup;

Center: Klipsch KSP C-6

Mains: Klipsch KSF 10.5

Sub: Klipsch KSW-150

From a post I did awhile back, I determined that the KSF-S5's were my best pick. They are hard to find nowadays and I prefer to buy new so I decided on trying the SS-1's. Would I be better trying monopoles on a bracket firing slightly downward towards my sweet spot or would the SS-1's do ok that high up?

Rob

This message has been edited by Robertd on 05-19-2002 at 08:37 PM

[dougdrake]

Robert - I have SS-1s, and was faced with a similar situation. The key to that question is how far from them will your listening position be? They have a vertical dispersion of 60 degrees, so if you imagine a cone of sound coming out of them, will it fall on the listening position or will it pass over it?

If it will pass over it, you could mount them so that they are angled down toward the listening position (which I wound up doing). You can do that by using much longer bolts/screws on the top and just having it sort of "hang" out there, or build a wedge which you fasten to the wall/ceiling, then affix the SS-1 to it.

Doug

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My System

[m00n]

Are the RS-7 bipole? And I was unaware that surrounds needed to be that low. I was always under the impression surrounds sould be about 2 feet above the listening position.

At any rate, I know what you mean about them having to be up so hight. My surrounds about 3-1/2 feet above the listening position. I still hear them ok though but have always wanted to be able to lower them. But no such luck unless I was to mount on of them to a door which my wife was NOT going to allow.

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the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[T2K]

m00n, call them whatever you like. I'm not sure anyone would know the difference.

Keith

[HornEd]

m00n, Klipsch WDST RS-7's are a considerable improvement over the original meaning of "bipole"... as well as the current popular meaning of "bipole."

Originally, a bipole speaker was one that had two speakers mechanically linked so the sound of one speaker was forced to be out-of-phase with the other. By having the speakers out-of-phase, the sound is more diffuse and usually somewhat lower. Currently, most people refer to "bipoles" are as speakers that are NOT mechanically linked, usually in-phase, and firing in opposite directions... with a null facing the sweetspot.

Currently, this kind of speaker set-up wired out-of-phase would be called a "dipole"... which is has been the "THX Certified" and Dolby Digital preferred side/surround speaker. These speakers are designed to create "non-localized" ambient sounds as a background for HT... and are usually less than full-range speakers.

Tripoles and Klipsch WDST (Wide Dispersion Surround Technology) provide speakers aimed away from the sweetspot to diffuse sound and additional speakers aimed toward the sweetspot of provide localized sounds. Tripoles are generally designed to send their diffuse sounds directly to the front and to the rear.

In the case of the RS-7, the WDST approach uses horn tweeters mounted at an angle to broadcast or spray sounds over 2000Hz 180° around the room to create a diffuse (non-localized) sound upon reflection from diverse surfaces in the room. Of course, the RS-7 crossover network directs sounds under 2000Hz to the 8" cone woofer directed toward the sweetspot.

It is significant to note that one way Klipsch gets more bass bang out of the RS-7 is by mounting oval bass reflex ports on each side (they sort of look like the "0" in m00n ). A nice touch for better wide dispersion in a smaller package!

While it may be well known on this Forum that I prefer the full tone & timbre matching qualities of multiple full-range mains in my Klipsch rear array... it seems to be less well known that I find the Klipsch WDST approach to be, by far, the most acceptable, cost-effective solution to turn the acoustics jumble of a home environment into something akin to a commercial theater... or better.

What's the difference? Well, my preference turns out to be a relatively expensive solution that generally requires the larger space. Monopoles need to be carefully positioned so there more narrow dispersion angle can envelop a listening area and provide first reflection information to the ears. Both direct and reflected sound is required for psychoacoustics to achieve a stunning performance in the theater of the mind... which is where the whole audio/visual scene really counts!

Perhaps, it would be more meaningful to simply say that my goal is to create an audio illusion of "being there" rather than one of "being in a theater watching a movie about being there"... clearly a case of personal preference and how much one is willing to do to achieve a goal.

Any way you slice it, if it's a Klipsch based system, you are bound to get great sound for the money spent... and, IMHO, RS-7 does an amazing job of evening out awkward acoustics and belting out a quality ambient and localized sound... in a mountable cabinet that weighs in at less than 25 pounds! Enjoy!!! -HornED

PS: Hey, do you liven up those "crank-it-up" RF-7 m00nopole shindigs with sippin' m00nshine?

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-21-2002 at 07:31 AM

[T2K]

What are the different types of surround speakers available and what are the differences?

There are three "common" types of surround speakers available today plus some unique types created by different speaker manufacturers.

"Monopole" speakers consist of a speaker or group of speakers all firing on the same plane in the same direction. This includes the vast majority of all speakers made. What people think of as "normal speakers" are termed Monopole. With regard to current surround sound formats, monopole speakers are the least desirable because they are the least effective in creating an "enveloping sound field" (ambience). They are good at localization, but that alone is not enough to produce the desired surround effect.

If you take a monopole speaker and add another speaker placed 180 degrees opposite of it (i.e. back to back) firing in the same phase, you have a "bipole" speaker. Firing in phase means all drivers on both sides are at the same excursion point at the same time. This creates the exact same sounds coming from both sides of the speaker at the same time. By design, Bipole speakers send no sound directly toward the listener. A bipole speaker will produce good "ambience" as all the sound is reflected off the walls of the room, but is not effective in producing "localized" sounds.

If you take the basic design of a bipole speaker with the rear facing drivers firing exactly opposite of the front, you have a "dipole" speaker. Dipole speakers produce a very diffuse sound, which is good for ambience, but, like bipoles, are not very effective at localization. Dipole design further reduces direct sound to the listening position.

Both bipole and dipole speakers should be mounted on the sides of the listening position and use reflected sound off of the walls to produce their effects. So if monopoles can offer localization but not enveloping ambience, and bi-pole/dipole speakers deliver ambience without localization, what can provide both important characteristics at the same time?

Klipsch produces a unique surround speaker that utilizes a technology called Wide Dispersion Surround Technology (WDST). Each WDST enabled speaker contains two Tractrix® Horn drivers and a woofer. Each horn covers a 90-degree arc and the combination of the two covers a full 180 degrees. This coverage gives excellent ambiance without having to use the walls to reflect sound. The controlled pattern of each horn (what we call "controlled directivity") leads to excellent localization of sounds because there is sound directed at the listening position, regardless of where in the room you are seated. And because the WDST surround speaker does not rely on wall reflections, it can be mounted in many different places in a room, leading to greater flexibility with placement. It is rare to have perfect side-wall positions available due to the placement of doors, drapes, furniture and such. WDST design delivers enveloping ambience WITH localization for the ideal surround sound result AND gives you the flexibility of placement to solve room design problems.

[m00n]

You guys amaze me at your knowledge.

Thanks for your input. Oh and the m00nshine. Na, I am a tequila kinda guy. I like the Sammy Hagar tequila. Blue Guava or something like that.

------------------

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[HornEd]

Keith, you are once again true to form quoting the party line. The sad thing is that your brain processes sound and its early reflections to make the determination as to whether sound is localized or ambient. To hold that either direct radiating or WDST speakers do not include reflected sound as part of their HT mission is to misstate the pyschoacoustic facts by which all healthy humans interpret sound.

What you have quoted has been around for quite a while... probably since Klipsch halted production of the KSP-S6 speakers and WDST was introduced. As indicated in prior posts, I like the concept of the KSP-S6 and WDST even more for its nod toward localization and its importance in the emergent trend of full-range discrete side/surround channels.

As I understand it, WDST are not considered "dipoles" which are the recommended standard as side/surrounds under THX and Dolby Digital EX standards... which you fail to mention. Personally, I prefer them to the fuzzy muted sound that dipoles tend to make in their all out effort for ambient sound.

However, I have long held that my observations are that the trend is toward direct radiating speakers (or "monopoles" as you described them) and away from the Dolby and THX recommended dipoles. Although, Dolby now recommends direct radiating speakers for the rear EX surrounds (THX does not). Of course, Sony also stipulates five identical direct radiating speakers for SACD.

To a great degree, this new age of multiple, full-range, discrete channels opens a new opportunity for speaker manufacturers and sound mixing engineers. That trend is borne out in the professional newsletter to be found at http://surroundpro.com/2002/april/columns_speaker.shtml and elsewhere on the net.

All who prefer yesterday's surround sound approach are welcome to it. I think Paul W. Klipsch had the right idea when he made the Center for the Klipschorns to be as equal to the K-Horns without needing a corner. At least in PWK's set-up, the reflections were Heritage quality reflections. Having tried WDST, I would not trade the Cornwall surrounds in my music system for something of lesser character touted in a manufacturer's sales tract.

And, thank you very much, but my Legend based HT system has more than ample, evenly distributed ambient sound for the psychoacoustics requirements of all who listen to it's 6.1 configuration plus front effects and Dolby reference level subwoofers.

To hold that all who are to fully enjoy HT must have dipole (in the case of Dolby and THX) or WDST in the case of Keith and his WDST sales pitches is to be dealing "fact" from less than a full deck. -HornED

PS: I'll drink a shooter of my private stock Tequila in honor of your new HT facility this evening, m00n! I don't mean anything by the m00nshine other than having an opportunity to spell m00n like you do! Salud, Senor Luna. Hmmm, just doesn't look right that way.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-23-2002 at 03:50 AM

[avman]

just as sound 'pans' from (i.e.) left-to-right across the front array, i can conceptualise the rear effect h.e. is suggesting. also, as h.e. suggests,PLACEMENT AND SOUND MIXING are extremely important in 'pulling off' the task of making monopoles sound 'diffuse'.

i also feel keith did an accurate assesment of the differences between the various surround options, and as h.e. noted, the ksps-6's, AS I USE THEM IN MY HT ROOM are exceptional in their woofer AND horn BOTH facing my sweet spot AND 'spraying' ambient sound against my back wall and back side walls. they are very direct when the sound engineer mixed the rears that way ex.: seven bridges road eagles:h.f.o. the vocals from joe walsh and timmy schmidt are direct,loud and clear, and the 'crowd sound' is nice and diffuse with some localisation as well(i can tell the 'hoot' over my left rear vs. the 'holler' over my right rear, for example. they ALSO do a GREAT job of 'simulating' a center rear in much the same way you would create a 'phantom' center--which requires correct 'placement' AND toe-in of the left and right (in this case rear)speakers. klipsch (or t-t-k) must have built these speakers for MY HT ROOM.

so, if your room/speakers are like mine, or similar, consider ksps-6's.

avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

Natuzzi red leather furniture set

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[T2K]

My post above is a cut & paste from this site. Home Audio. FAQ.

Ed, I looking for a picture of a brick wall to upload to this site. You can argue with the brick wall all you want.

Keith

PS> EDit free!