boa12 Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 oh & clue, tech support indicated david chose that splice point because he wanted to prove to himself that sofia really cared, disfigurement & all. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 And they adopted benny the dog too, right? Wheeee I cant go look at the link until I see the movie again, this is too much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 clu, actually the link is good cause 1) the theories are all interpretation anyway. i can think of 2 more - that the whole thing was a story from david's friend bryan's book, or it took place in a coma/dream from the OD. & 2) the link provides lil things/secrets that are hard to catch unless you look at the movie under a microscope. the director's cut of VS, crowe pretty much tells them all too. i'm moving on to mulholland drive now. saw that fri pm. it's a lil easier but not much. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 Ok boa, I snuck off to the the website and you are right, most of the stuff I would have definitely missed. I guess I'll see the movie again next weekend along with mulholland drive, if my order comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 ok i'm just about freed from the angst of this movie but just thought i'd give my final take. (i hope) 1st it's important to note the movie is not in real time. & the whole story, except for the very end when his eyes open, takes place inside a dream 150 yrs into the future. the story actually begins within the dream at the point where the psych/russell enters into his mind. iow, the lucid dream did start where it was suppose to, when he was awoken in the gutter by sofia, but that's not where the story starts. at the story beginning, sofia's voice & the nightmare on times square, are david telling of a dream within the lucid dream to russell's charactor, the psych. then he tells of what really happened pretty much. all the way up to the splice point when sofia wakes him & the lucid dream really starts (notice the sky change to vanilla), then on up to the point where its a mystery what really happened, murder or no? iow, russell is his conscious guide trying to figure out reality. then the story goes to real time (after the supposed murder of julie g/sofia). then he starts trying to recall w/ his conscious/russell who this ellie is (LE - life extension). rest is in real time w/ some flashbacks of what happened in reality 150yrs before & what's been happening in his dream. so actually the story is in real time but it starts at the point where psych/russell enters the dream & has flashbacks/recollections to russell of both really happened 150 yrs previous & what david has imagined happened. i think everything from the 2nd time he woke up to the crash to the disfigurement to sofia blowing him off to signing up w/ LE to his drug OD death did really happen 150 yrs previous w/ some embellishment by his dream. at the end it sounds like sofia's voice because he wishes it was. but it's really a nurse bringing him back 150 yrs in the future. he'll get his face fixed w/ the tech of that day. & maybe sofia was also LE'd & he meets up with her again, or maybe w/ her great grand-daughter. we can only imagine. or maybe there'll be a sequel. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 Boa, got home, the video was patiently waiting on the front porch...watched the first 15 minutes again...and the answer is .... http://www.mcescher.com/ ...and once again... http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Authors/poe/works/dream.within.a.dream.html This message has been edited by cluless on 06-15-2002 at 08:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 clu, right on. dreams/recollections/subconscious nightmares within a big dream 150 yrs in the future. & what makes it really complicated is the movie itself starts more toward the end of his actual Lucid Dream gone haywire. moved onto "The Others" now. written by same spanish dude & also directed by him. its not complicated/confusing at all - after VS real suprised it wasn't. & glad too ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-16-2002 at 10:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 btw clu, please save me some time & clue me in on the 1st link - escher. what's he about??? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 escher's drawings and the movie are essentially the same, both are contrived to confuse the senses. The normal progression of things is warped in such a way that you can follow them around and around in a logical manner but the overall result defies logic. The movie as constructed by taking a single time-line and "splicing" in more than one place. All theories are logical yet faulted, since the time-line has been corrupted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 clu, oh I follow now. yea 1st the original movie & then crowe embellishing on top of that w/ VS makes for even more "complexity". in fact, listening to crowe in the director's cut, his intent was to make it even more subjective to the viewer (that bastard ). wonder if there was ever any book published off it. doubt it, cause it was a screenplay like "the others" also. i do like crowe though. been following him since his rolling stone writing days. at least he always has great soundtracks. though i think the sound engineers did a bad job w/ VS. too much distortion on some of the dialogue. shoulda used some dialogue normalization since it was a dolby only format. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 boa - btw, your theory about russell being part of the true reality is blown away by the sequence on the roof at the end, where he is reduced to a mere player by the fact that he doesn't know his daughters names. Some other interesting points that just serve to confuse: The dweebo tech services guy tells him that he has control of all the players, but yet in one of the jail scenes David attempts to take control and fails. The dweebo guy is in the operating theater during his surgery, and the doctor that brings him in for the surgery is is the original doctor. Did everyone go for the 150 year freeze? Speaking of his good friend Brian, On the way to the racketball game, Brian calls Julie "his dream girl", and later calls Sophia "the girl of his flocking dreams". Now we all know who told Julie about the fluck-buddy line and attributed it to David. During the bar scene with the camera, dweebo is in the room, and Brian distracts David when David starts to look a little confused. Nah, there are no answers to be had...but hey I got my money's worth on this one. Also, I saw The Others before Vanilla Sky, so I had no expectations. At the end, my overall response (on the Others) was, OK Fine, nice twist at the end...but its done. Im just glad I rented that one. This message has been edited by cluless on 06-16-2002 at 06:18 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 clu, what i wrote above was a means to an end/conclusion. but its all there somewhere. but yea the whole movie is in the lucid dream pretty much gone haywire, that started when he was thawed 150 yrs later. the movie begins though after the dream had been going awhile. when things really went wrong & he knew he killed somebody. only his recollections of what happened 150 yrs previous ever really happened. & the recollections stopped at the splice point. that's the point he chose before he was frozen & like LE said, they wiped everything that really happened from that point on from his memory. never said the psych was part of what really happened. the psych came in his dream after he started it & things went nuts. that's when the movie started but it seemed like it started way back because he was remembering to the psych everything that had happened up to the murder point, inclusing the opening nightmare at the very beginning of movie. so psych/russell was like his conscious helping him piece together what really happened within the dream. it seemed to me like they put all those dream clues in when it was his imagination making things up, & then everything seemed normal when he was recollecting what had really happened. iow, the opening nightmare was imagined of course, including sofia's voice. this was him describing to the psych a dream while in the dream. but waking up the 2nd time, julie g., brian, meeting sofia, the crash, his disfigurement, getting blown off by sofia at the club, & falling asleep on the street was really what happened 150 yrs prior. & here is the splice point. his LD starts 150 yrs later & sofia wakes him up in the street. notice how the splice noises & how everything becomes dream like. the vanilla sky, etc. iow, its not what really happened back then. the psych came after the LD started & went haywire. the doctor doing the surgery was in the LD. that never really happened - his face was never really fixed. don't remember the jail scene you mentioned, but maybe now it makes sense. a lot of times he didn't have control like he was supposed to. his subconscious was screwing things up, & that's why the psych came in where the movie started & throughout tech support dude was in there too. once they get past all the rememberences & up to the point where he remembers what "ellie"/LE is, then the movie goes real time & they go to the LE headquarters & he finally consciously begins to remember what really happened after the splice point, with the help of tech support which is really just in his subconscious. so like I said, the whole movie is within the LD & includes recollections of actual events that really happened, his LD as planned (after the spice point), & nightmares from his subconscious. only at the very end is he physically conscious. & that's about what, 10 secs? this has to be the most complicated plot i've ever seen. but that's my take (see all above though at points i may be thinking out loud or dreaming ). ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 boa..Open Your Eyes (what are you doing up at 1:57 anyway?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 yea lol, tried to sleep but cruz's voice kept awaking me. btw clu notice how all the reviwers say they have it all figured out but don't want to spoil it. that's a real hoot. they don't know & don't want to try. hope you appreciate this. thanks to my obsession, you'll never get a disection of VS effort like this from roger ebert. he just writes much better ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Trip... Just saw this moive over the weekend. Kind of reminded me of Jacobs Ladder meets Total Recal. Good movie, just weird. ------------------ m00nsCinema to be the m00n system FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS) TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Jacob's Ladder, that's another one for the MOMA thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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