RayCanales Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 am I going deaf from cranking my sound up too loud or why is it that my pair of KLF 30 appear to sound louder than my Belles? also would I do anything to the response of the belles if set them up off the ground since most of the time my position in relation to the speakers is standing up the tweets are about waist level or lower. I always thought that speakers had to have tweets at ear level. DB Meter = 110DB any good websites to test my hearing. Main Amp = B&K REF3220 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 while the specs show the belle to be 1dB more sensitive, the klf-30's will take considerably more power,and they are rated to a lower frequency output capability than the belles.(this seems odd,what about all that 'folded bass-horn' stuff?) anyway, i can attest to the volume output capability of the legends...huh?..what?..speak up please-i own legends! avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center (looking for 1-m.o.klf-20) ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire Natuzzi red leather furniture set KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Regarding levels - the Belle and KLF30 have very, very differently shaped frequency response curves. In particular, the Belle has practically no lower bass. Below about 50 - 55 Hz, depending on placement and room, their response drops like a stone. The KLF30 has *MUCH* stronger output in the range from, say, 30 to 50 Hz. If you play a lot of material with a lot of energy in this range (rock / pop, jazz) the KLF30 will sound a lot louder, 'cause poor Belle is not putting out much of anything. From upper bass to treble, Belle is more sensitive than KLF30, but only by a couple of dB (or a bit more, depending upon frequency). This is not a night and day difference. Impedence and phase characteristics of both speakers are quite different, as well, so they will respond differently to different amps. Regarding positioning off the floor - I tried this with my La Scalas, just out of general curiousity. I got a set of the biggest TipToes, and put them under the cabinets, 'cause everyone told me that using TipToes or some equivalent sharp little pointy thing to couple the speakers to the floor would improve the sound. I also tried putting them up on cinderblocks to lift the midrange horn up to ear level. I also tried TipToes on top of cinderblocks. For reasons I do not understand, in every case the sound was worse than when the cabinets were sitting on the floor. For what it's worth, my floor is tile on a concrete slab. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 ray, i think this confirms the more "in your face" sound of the klf especially when compared to belles. just after getting the new b&k set-up. i thought things though smoother sounded less loud, & even w/ klf-30 as my mains. but getting out the sound meter i found that i was actually hearing louder as not as loud. iow, less distortion albeit a subtle distortion dif. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayCanales Posted July 22, 2002 Author Share Posted July 22, 2002 Ok so what do you guys think of adding a pair of SVS Subs to the system, I talked to tom at SVS and he recommended a pair of SVSCS+ 25-31 with the Samson 1000 he told me that my sub (Velo HGS12 is being overmatched by the Belles ?) just how loud do we need for out Stereos to go? till our ears bleed? why not. ck out the great decor in my room. still working on at least fixing the damn cables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Last weekend I compared some Scala's and Belles at a friends house with KLF-30's and Cornwalls at my house. the 30's definitely stand out as sounding a bit different when compared with the others. With the Belle's and Corns especially I found myself wanting to "turn it up". With the 30's I don't have this feeling as they are a little more edgey. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayCanales Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 that is exactly my feeling too and I thought I was going deaf I have the Belles cranked up louder than my KLF my preamp was at most -4 now I find it set at 0 most of the time when Im Jamming. any explanation for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vavoline Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Originally posted by Ray Garrison "For reasons I do not understand, in every case the sound was worse than when the cabinets were sitting on the floor. For what it's worth, my floor is tile on a concrete slab." It's no mystery, as all of the Heritage line are SUPPOSED to sit on the floor by design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadhawg Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 You might want to check overall db output with a sound meter, don't just go by the setting on your receiver. Each speaker will emphasize a different range of frequencies more than others. Room acoustics and placement will also affect this dramatically, so what holds true for your room would not necessarily hold true in someone else's room. I have K-Horns, LaScalas and KLF30's. My own experience has been that I can tolerate much higher db output with both the K-Horns and LaScalas than with the KLF30's. The 30s are much edgier than my Heritage speakers and fatigue from the upper midrange frequencies forces me to turn them down before I can reach the volume levels of the Heritage speakers. A better example of this is a side by side comparison I did for a friend who was planning on buying some powered Mackie PA speakers for a sound system. I took a pair of Pro LaScalas to a room roughly 70' x 120' x 35' tall. We played the Mackies-unbelievably harsh. Made my skin crawl and we could only tolerate moderate volumes-about 95 db for a few minutes before shutting them down because the frequencies emphasized made the perceived volume seem excessive because our ears actually hurt. We played the same source over the LaScalas and I pushed them to 114 dbs. The perceived volume was much less because the sound was more pleasant. In fact, my friend didn't realize how loud they were playing until he turned to say something to me and realized he could barely hear his own voice. So what I'm saying is that in my experience it is possible and likely that you are running the Heritage speakers higher on your receiver not because they are less efficient than the 30s but because they cause less fatigue and allow you to run them hotter and the perceived volume is less. In actuality it probably isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 good post roadhawg,something to consider... got a rat shack spl meter to see how loud LOUD really is! ran about 118dB at my listening position which was extremely loud!! movie average at more reasonable levels:100-105dB avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center (looking for 1-m.o.klf-20) ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner jvc s-vhs-et hi-fi stereo vcr sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire Natuzzi red leather furniture set KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadhawg Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Yikes, Avman-I thought I liked it loud! I usually listen at around 100-104 db when I can get everyone else out of the house which is not that often. LaScalas often get dumped on for poor bass performance, but I think a lot of their bad rap is due to being in rooms that don't let them strut their stuff. I used to use them as PA in a band and even up on speaker stands they were never lacking in low end for most music. At a distance of 55' on a solid stage floor at 114 db, the hit from a kick drum feels like someone is shoving you in the chest with their hand while at the same time being musical and without any trace of the harshness in the mids and highs often attributed to horn loaded speakers. Pretty impressive design even with today's technology. Unbelievable when you consider what the world looked like when they were created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Roadhawg, Your post is an excellent example of why we've sometimes gotten into the "La Scalas have GREAT bass" "No they don't, La Scalas have NO bass" argument on this board. You said "...At a distance of 55' on a solid stage floor at 114 db, the hit from a kick drum feels like someone is shoving you in the chest..." Well, yeah, okay. But that's not BASS, that's MIDBASS. You're talking about a frequency response that peaks at probably 80 Hz. Take a look at this graph - this is the frequency response curve of the Shure PG52, a popular and good kick drum mic. Note that the response drops by 15dB in the octave below 80 Hz. This mic produces NO BASS, at least by my definition. When I think of bass, I think of deep organ tones, in the range below 25 Hz or so. La Scalas have NO BASS RESPONSE in that band. Where the kick drum energy is concentrated, they have GREAT response. It's just not BASS response. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System This message has been edited by Ray Garrison on 07-30-2002 at 09:47 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangero Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Ok, now I'm really confused. I'm upgrading this weekend from my (1) Heresy I and (2) Boston Acoustics VR-M60 no I didn't know what I was doing and can't get my money back to: HH Scott (tubes) preamp 122 and HH Scott 240 monoblocks with Belles to replace the Heresy or BA. Now I'm hearing the base thing. I listen to jazz, blues, and tango (very bass heavy...multiple violins, bandoneon, stand up bass, piano). I also have a McIntosh C20 tube preamp and a pair of MC30s which I have not hooked up yet (amps are in the mail). So, what is going to happen to me on the base? Any recommendations on using the Scott vs the McIntosh? And finally, the current owner of the Belles have them sitting on some kind of sand filled box to raise the base to ear level and reduce vibration. Any comments? Also my living room is about 10' X 20 '... ------------------ HH Scott vintage tube system with 122 preamp,310 E tuner, pair 240 monoblocks, JVC turntable, Klipsch Heresy I speakers, Harman Kardon dual CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadhawg Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Ray, I'm in agreement with you as to the difference in what people mean when they refer to bass causing confusion, perhaps I should have been more specific. I'm not sure what the frequency response curve you posted is supposed to mean. Is it a manufacturers spec curve being fed pink noise or an actual graph of what that mic does being fed a signal from a kick drum? In either case a microphone response graph does not indicate one way or another the actual frequency of an instrument, just the frequency bias of that particular mic. Personally, I have always favored using the flattest mics I could find on drums and make EQ adjustments at the console. Kick drums have fundamental frequencies ranging from about 35 hz to 150 hz with harmonics ranging upward from there. It is an unusual male vocalist that can go much lower than 50 hz. Piano will go around 27.5 hz. The only instruments I know that will generate fundamentals much below that are synthesizers and pipe organs (and me after 3 chili dogs). So when I say LaScalas have good bass, I'm talking primarily about the useable frequency spectrum of popular music, I'm not trying to make a case for them being cellar dwellers or the speaker of choice for pipe organ music. In fact, my Khorns would come up short there also. I will grant you that a lot of the energy from a kick drum does not come from the basement. My experience has been closer to 60 hz, but that also varies by the drum, head, room, etc. Drums are pretty hard to pinpoint frequencies on due to the harmonics. Nevertheless, most people who I have played music for in a large room have been more impressed by the "bass" than anything else about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I would think the KLF 30 would be blown away. Are the mid/high drivers the same? ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.