Roadhawg

Do a search in the 2 Channel Forum for the thread "Danocaster's $300 Flat Black Pro LaScalas" from 7/25/02. Use either NOS440 or Roadhawg for author. You will find photos of the trapezoidal split LaScala owned by NOS440 and also a pair of split LaScala's with the squared mid/tweet section that I bought for my church. Hope this helps. Roadhawg

I have used a Denon 3801 w/ my LaScalas and had plenty of power to spare. Didn't sound as good in plain stereo mode as my old Yamaha R-9 did but I have more than enough power. If you want to listen mainly in 2 channel you're probably going to want to look into tubes.

I have NEO:6 on my 3801 also. I like it better than DPL but not as well as 7 channel stereo. It has cinema and music settings, the cinema sounds bad in my opinion. I use it infrequently on some music sources such as concerts on TV, but not very often. I wouldn't spend extra to get it. I do like the 7 channel stereo a lot. That's what I use most watching TV and satellite.

Sean, there's just something unsettling about seeing the phrase "chop up" and LaScala in the same sentence. I think I just had heart palpitations!

Sean, if you can find an Industrial Split LaScala, I think that will solve your problem. Set your Toshiba on top of the bass bin and put the top section where you have your current speaker angled up. They're scarce as hens' teeth but I've used them and they sound great. Nice setup!

Craig, as a matter of fact they are in medium oak. I got the last pair for sale at Ultimate Electronics here in Tulsa. I'll keep you in mind if I decide to let go of them in the future. Glad you're pleased with your subs. I haven't heard from anyone yet who has had a bad thing to say about SVS products. In all likelihood the CS+ would probably be fine for me, but there's always that little something telling me not to cut any corners. That little something has cost me a lot of money over the years. Do you find your CS's to be tight and accurate? My big fear is that I'll wind up with a sub that sounds boomy and splattered like an auto sub. I'm looking for something that will be seamless with the Khorns and I'm leaning more towards the SVS than the RSW.

Craig, I am running Khorns left and right with a pro Heresy center, LaScalas for surrounds and KLF30's for the back speakers. No sub yet, I am debating SVS Ultras or RSW15. I will probably get another pair of Heresys for the back and move the KLF30's to the bedroom. I used to run the KLF30s up front with a C7, then moved up to LaScalas, then to the Khorns. The 30s are very good, but to my ear there is a dramatic improvement with the Heritage speakers. The highs are much more detailed and the bass is a good deal tighter and more accurate in my opinion.

You're not alone but you're not in a crowd either. I'm in Tulsa-not very many people here familiar with the Heritage line, there are 3 dealers here, mostly HT stuff. Welcome back home!

I have had pretty broad experience with different kinds of pro equipment including JBL, EAW, EV, pro LaScalas and pro Heresys. My personal preference is the pro LaScalas. Given a good size room where they can open up and play they give impact you just don't get from other speakers even when bi-amped or tri-amped. Most people that slam them for no low end have only heard them in small living rooms where they can't show what they can do. They do roll off at about 45 hz, but most pro equipment rolls off there or above. The goal of pro equipment is high spl within predetermined frequency ranges, usually from 40 to 50 hz to around 17 or 20 khz. The real key to quality pro equipment is not the advertised specs but how well they sound within those specs. I'd rather take a beating than spend 30 minutes listening to a pair of 3 way Mackie active speakers again. If you looked at the specs you'd think they'd be alright, but they sounded obscene at any volume level. To address the question of notes above 10 khz, fundamentals end considerably lower than the harmonics that continue above what we can hear. The highest fundamental for a piano is about 4khz. Synthesizers can play fundamentals as high as 20 khz. A tenor voice can reach maybe 600 hz, a rare soprano voice might reach 1.4 khz. The point being that fundamentals are relatively low. However, if you chop EQ at 10 khz even on a male voice whose highest fundamental can only reach 600 hz, the voice will sound dull and lifeless. Adding EQ boost at around 16 khz will add "air" to the vocals and bring them out from the surrounding band mix. The reason you want wide frequency response is not for the fundamentals but for the harmonics which give the sound it's character. Having said that, before anyone can make a good speaker choice for pro applications, you have to know the type of music to be played and the size of the rooms they will be used in more often than not. Another major consideration is how many people will be around to help set up! I used pro LaScalas with a band and even though I am an avid weightlifter I needed another person to get them up on stands. If it will be a one person setup-case closed. Get pro Heresys and a sub. You won't need massive amplifiers or the hassle and expense of a bi-amped system to reach serious sound levels. In my opinion, to get comparable sound quality from any other pro gear, you will have to spend 4 or 5 times the amount that the Heresys would cost and at least twice what the LaScalas would cost.

If you call Service By Air, be sure to check rate for dock to dock shipping, that's how I had my LaScalas shipped. The seller took them to the dock in Atlanta, I had emailed pics of the speakers to the Service By Air rep in Atlanta, they did an inspection for me before releasing my cashiers check to the seller. They then put them on a pallet and shrinkwrapped and strapped them. I picked them up in Tulsa at the dock about 4 days later, removed straps and shrinkwrap and put them in my Suburban. Total cost $133 and they couldn't have done a better job for me.

If you don't already have it, you owe it to yourself to get the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DVD. The acoustic guitars on Hotel California will take your breath away through the LaScalas. You can hear the fingers plucking the strings. There's also a lot of great percussion on there. I take it they arrived without dings or scratches. Congratulations on a great pair of speakers!

DocJ, Contact Service By Air @ 1-800-243-5545. I used them about a year and a half ago to ship a pair of LaScalas I purchased from Atlanta to Tulsa. Total delivered price was $133.00 dock to dock. They put the speakers on a pallet, shrinkwrapped and strapped them down. When I went to pick them up they couldn't have been more securely attached if they were bolted on and they didn't have a scratch on them. The advantage of having them on a pallet is the combined weight and bulk forces them to be moved by forklift rather than some bubba with a dolly which is a guarantee for knicks and dings. Congratulations, I know you're going to love the LaScalas. I second the motion to spend some time listening to them as is before making modifications. Room placement will make more noticeable improvements than most tweaks. Roadhawg

digjr, Check the thread "Danocaster's $300 Flat Black Pro LaScala" dated 7/25/02. There are two examples of Pro LaScalas there, one with the trapezoidal mids/tweeter section and one with the squared off mid/tweeter enclosure that I got for my church and refinished. I installed the protective strips and corners after refinishing them. Roadhawg

You might want to consider a Pro LaScala in split configuration. Bass bin is already in a separate cabinet, Mid and tweeter are in another separate cabinet. The finish is usually black, I have refinished them with spray or roll on pickup bed liner like Rhinoliner and they look pretty good. But I agree that you may have some picture tube problems due to the magnets.

For what it's worth, I'd strongly recommend against bypassing the fuses, particularly if you're pushing to concert levels. Much easier to blow the mid and tweet than the woofer. I'd also be suspicious of your amp. You may have a problem that is just starting to show up as sporadic, but will get more frequent and severe w/ time.

Ray, I'm in agreement with you as to the difference in what people mean when they refer to bass causing confusion, perhaps I should have been more specific. I'm not sure what the frequency response curve you posted is supposed to mean. Is it a manufacturers spec curve being fed pink noise or an actual graph of what that mic does being fed a signal from a kick drum? In either case a microphone response graph does not indicate one way or another the actual frequency of an instrument, just the frequency bias of that particular mic. Personally, I have always favored using the flattest mics I could find on drums and make EQ adjustments at the console. Kick drums have fundamental frequencies ranging from about 35 hz to 150 hz with harmonics ranging upward from there. It is an unusual male vocalist that can go much lower than 50 hz. Piano will go around 27.5 hz. The only instruments I know that will generate fundamentals much below that are synthesizers and pipe organs (and me after 3 chili dogs). So when I say LaScalas have good bass, I'm talking primarily about the useable frequency spectrum of popular music, I'm not trying to make a case for them being cellar dwellers or the speaker of choice for pipe organ music. In fact, my Khorns would come up short there also. I will grant you that a lot of the energy from a kick drum does not come from the basement. My experience has been closer to 60 hz, but that also varies by the drum, head, room, etc. Drums are pretty hard to pinpoint frequencies on due to the harmonics. Nevertheless, most people who I have played music for in a large room have been more impressed by the "bass" than anything else about them.

Yikes, Avman-I thought I liked it loud! I usually listen at around 100-104 db when I can get everyone else out of the house which is not that often. LaScalas often get dumped on for poor bass performance, but I think a lot of their bad rap is due to being in rooms that don't let them strut their stuff. I used to use them as PA in a band and even up on speaker stands they were never lacking in low end for most music. At a distance of 55' on a solid stage floor at 114 db, the hit from a kick drum feels like someone is shoving you in the chest with their hand while at the same time being musical and without any trace of the harshness in the mids and highs often attributed to horn loaded speakers. Pretty impressive design even with today's technology. Unbelievable when you consider what the world looked like when they were created.

Craig, I'll try to get some photos this week and email them to you.

You might want to check overall db output with a sound meter, don't just go by the setting on your receiver. Each speaker will emphasize a different range of frequencies more than others. Room acoustics and placement will also affect this dramatically, so what holds true for your room would not necessarily hold true in someone else's room. I have K-Horns, LaScalas and KLF30's. My own experience has been that I can tolerate much higher db output with both the K-Horns and LaScalas than with the KLF30's. The 30s are much edgier than my Heritage speakers and fatigue from the upper midrange frequencies forces me to turn them down before I can reach the volume levels of the Heritage speakers. A better example of this is a side by side comparison I did for a friend who was planning on buying some powered Mackie PA speakers for a sound system. I took a pair of Pro LaScalas to a room roughly 70' x 120' x 35' tall. We played the Mackies-unbelievably harsh. Made my skin crawl and we could only tolerate moderate volumes-about 95 db for a few minutes before shutting them down because the frequencies emphasized made the perceived volume seem excessive because our ears actually hurt. We played the same source over the LaScalas and I pushed them to 114 dbs. The perceived volume was much less because the sound was more pleasant. In fact, my friend didn't realize how loud they were playing until he turned to say something to me and realized he could barely hear his own voice. So what I'm saying is that in my experience it is possible and likely that you are running the Heritage speakers higher on your receiver not because they are less efficient than the 30s but because they cause less fatigue and allow you to run them hotter and the perceived volume is less. In actuality it probably isn't.

You might consider finishing them with spray or roll on pickup bed liner like Rhino. I have bought two sets of Industrial LaScalas that I finished out this way. Klipsch will sell you black plastic ribbed edging for the cabinet straight edges and corner pieces that give the cabinets an agressive, "off-road" kind of look without looking ratty. Personally I think they look pretty cool with that finish.

This will be my last post on this subject (sigh of relief by all). It appears my tone has been misunderstood and is starting to generate some unpleasantness. Allan, I don't grade Christians or anyone else as good enough or not good enough-didn't mean to imply that I did. Only you or I can determine whether or not we are Christians and whether we are good enough. Speaking for myself, I am not good enough-still a work in progress. Church membership or attendance has nothing to do with it. I'm well aware of the beliefs of both Jefferson and Franklin as well as the other Founding Fathers according to their own words. I did not mean to imply that all of our Founding Fathers were Christian-just that Christian principles were the cornerstone of America's birth. To connect this to the original topic of this thread several gazillion posts ago, I made that point to say that the phrase "under God" accurately reflects the mindset of our framers according to their own words and writings. Larry, the fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you said. You imply that given identical education we would all have the same beliefs, which are yours. Neither communism nor capitalism in theory are inherently evil. Practically speaking, capitalism works and communism doesn't. Your statement about being "amused" at the views of "Christians" on monogamy and life beginning at conception is both condescending and inaccurate-a bad combination in my opinion. My position on monogamy is based on the Bible which I think you will agree predates any papal ruling. My position on when life begins is based on the Bible, secular science and my own observations of my children's ultrasounds. Neither view was formed or adopted as a result of any decree, teaching or ruling. Regarding capitalism and greed, once again you make condescending and innacurate assumptions based upon my disagreement with you. You know nothing of my educational background nor I of yours. For your information I had three years of Economics in college. I am very familiar with both theories and economic models of both systems. But we're not even in the same zip code as the original topic anymore. If you want to get 100 people to form a little communist enclave, go ahead-noone will stop you. It's a failed system in theory because it cannot work without everyone's participation and to achieve this you have to force people to participate. If you have studied economics, you already know the reasons it's a failed system in practice. It never has been about the rich giving to the poor. It's been about having one group's possessions confiscated and redistributed to another group. I will agree with you that both systems can and have been perverted and corrupted, as can any organization or system. I am familiar with both the vices and the virtues of Jefferson and Franklin, but get real. Bill Clinton doesn't look like a saint no matter who he's standing next to. His best day falls far short of either Jefferson's or Franklin's worst day in my opinion. Who do you expect to be quoting Bill Clinton 200 years from now? Finally, regarding your P.S.-I have no idea where you get the information you draw your conclusions from-the Institute For The Comparitive Study of Murder and Church Attendance? My gut instinct is you might find the per capita murder rate of Jews by Palestinians over the last several years gives us a run for our money. The Germans also had a pretty good turn at bat in the forties. To answer your rhetorical question of why our murder rate is so high-it's because there are those among us who have used their free will to choose to do wrong. I've read and reread this thread to see if I've been ugly or mean spirited. I don't think I have but if I crossed that line inadvertantly, I apologize. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is stupid or unenlightened. I don't believe good ideas, things or valuable creations come only from Christians. I have no idea whether or not PWK was a Christian, but I sure do love his speakers and was extremely sad at his passing. I enjoy discussions with people who have well thought out viewpoints whether or not they agree with me. I have learned some things in this one. Thanks for allowing me a voice here!

I keep thinking I'm done with this thread, but I wanted to respond to some of Larry's comments. Democracy and republic are ideas and concepts. Who can say whether a Greek first imagined the concept or someone else and does it even matter? Greeks have followed Christ as well. Do the original Greek concepts of democracy and republic mirror what we have in America. Could be a case of creating a better mousetrap here. Did Christians burn books and denounce these concepts? I'll have to take your word for it. I can tell you the Bible does not advocate either action. To the best of my recollection, the New Testament does not advocate one form of government over any other. The emphasis is on the believer's heart condition. To view rulers as in the hand of God with the believer submitting to their authority as long as it did not violate God's teachings. Capitalism & greed are not synonymous. Greed is a sin. To suggest capitalism is evidence of greed and communism is not denies history. Communism is forced on individuals. The lifestyles of Communist leaders at the expense of those under their rule proves that. Rather than making lives of individuals better as had been claimed, it served to enrich and empower the few. The same can be said for some church officials and sadly, many government officials. Wealth and power are a great temptation to many. The early Christians you refer to willingly put their possessions in common without coercion or threat of punishment if they didn't. With regards to ornate churches, I repeat that men can put the so-called Stamp of God's Approval on anything they wish. That does not mean God either initiated or is pleased with it. Men have been using God's name as justification for selfish acts since the beginning of history. Having said that, I don't have a problem with nice church buildings. I'm not so hypocritical as to think I should live in a nice house and drive nice vehicles and expect the church to be made of mud and straw. I submit that our system has in fact worked because of its' moral foundations which, like it or not, are rooted in Christian beliefs and ideals. And while, as I stated earlier, a nation (or society) cannot by definition be Christian, our society founded on Christian principles has been wildly successful. I find very little in the way of economics in our Declaration or Constitution. What I do find throughout these and all of the documents I have read pertaining to our country's origins is evidence of our Founders' belief in and reliance upon God for the formation and continuance of America. I believe that the closer we as a people come to living out the teachings of Jesus the more freedom and liberty we have. Laws are an imperfect external attempt at controlling and correcting an inward condition. Laws have no hold on me. A law against murder has no effect on me because I am bound by a higher law to love my brother as myself. Laws against theft do not impact me in the least because I have been given a higher law not to covet and be glad for the good fortune of others. I don't have to worry about violating laws dealing with the equality of women or minorities because Christ compels me to esteem others more highly than myself. Moreover, these are not things I have to choke down like bad medicine. How many times have you heard someone who has done wrong say they wish they could stop? That is the miracle of Christianity-the freedom not just to do whatever you want, but the freedom to keep from doing wrong things that you seem powerless to resist by yourself. If you accept the concept that Jesus was in fact the Son of God; consider how amazing that He who holds all the power of Heaven in His hands, knelt to wash the dust and filth from the feet of His followers. How could anyone, believer or not, find fault with such an example. This selflessness is what caused the spread of Christianity, not ornate churches or fancy candleholders. I agree that the will of the people is not always right. The Constitution seeks to protect us from our own worst impulses. I suggest to you that the success of this remarkable document is solely attributable to the religious beliefs and principles held dear by its' authors; the very same values it has become so fashionable to call backward and unenlightened.

I would not say that this or any other nation is a Christian Nation. By definition a nation cannot be Christian any more than a car can be Christian. Christianity is an individual decision everyone must make for themselves. Much as I want for my children to be Christian, that is a choice they will have to make for themselves when they are old enough to understand.I will tell them the truth and do my best to persuade them but ultimately the decision will be theirs. While this cannot be a Christian Nation, it is undeniably a nation founded on Christian principles. Which brings us to the rub of the matter. Are there abuses by people claiming to be Christian? Absolutely. Have their been wrongs done to others by Chrisians? Absolutely. However, this does not detract from the rightness of those principles, it further illustrates the consequences of deviating from them. When asked what the greatest commandment was by people who were attempting to trick him, Jesus responded to love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. The atrocities committed in "the name of Christ" do not reflect at all on the dangers of Christianity but rather individual choices of greed and selfishness which are rationalized by tacking God's name onto it. If I break into your house and steal your LaScalas (a capital offense if ever there was one) and say I'm doing it in God's name-it certainly doesn't mean God signed off on it. People can say anything. You want to understand what Christianity is, look to its central figure, Jesus. He did not kill anyone, harm anyone. In fact, I believe He ultimately died for everyone, even those who hated him. I cannot think of a more noble set of principles to found a nation on than those of Chrisianity. Far from being greedy or self seeking, the Bible teaches if you want to be greatest, be the servant of everyone. The Bible is to me the most honest book ever written. No spin, even the Bible's greatest heroes like Moses, David, Jonah and Abraham are laid bare with all of their sins and the consequences clearly spelled out along with God's unchanging love and forgiveness in the face of rejection and defiance. I do not believe the framers in either intent or action set up a process for churches or ministers to be above the law. In fact, the Bible is crystal clear on the fact that teachers and ministers are held to a higher standard of accountability than anyone else. I know this seems somewhat off topic, but bear with me. Chrisianity is not an attempt to cash in a winning lottery ticket guaranteeing health, wealth and victory in every undertaking. It is a personal relationship based on what has already been given freely. It shows the highest respect for personal choice and freedom. I do not believe the phrase "under God" serves to isolate us from the rest of the world in either economic or military matters. I believe in being respectful of others' beliefs and choices, but I don't believe we have to deny our origins to keep someone else from feeling uncomfortable. The phrase "under God" recognizes what I believe to be a fact: there is a God. According to the polls I have seen the majority of Americans do believe there is a God. If there is, not only are we "under God" but so is everyone else on this earth. According to most polls I have seen, the majority of Americans believe there is a God. Whether we choose to follow Him is up to us.

Dean, I agree with your assessment. It is easy for those of us who are the beneficiaries of our Founding Fathers' efforts to do the Monday morning quarterbacking and say it would be better had they done it differently. You cannot rewrite history. The fact is these were men with a deep faith in God which was a fundamental part of who they were, not a peripheral one. The work they did in creating this country had a recogition of and reliance upon God as it's underpinnings. This country would not have been established without that belief. To say that this is not so is to deny what these men actually wrote and said. Some have conceded that maybe that is what was said back then, but our country has changed and those views are out of step today, pointing out that slavery was also accepted back then. That is a valid point of discussion. My response is that I believe there are some absolutes in this world that remain true regardless of our changing society, preferences or values. Gravity is one example. No matter how much I resent the fact that gravity holds me down, it acts upon me without regard for my opinion. The sun rises in the east daily with no concern for my opinion in the matter. I believe that the existence of a loving, forgiving God who is actively involved in the daily affairs of man is an absolute. I further believe that the accomplishments of this nation descend directly from our foundations upon Christian principles. With regard to slavery and other wrongs committed by our Founding Fathers and ourselves, it is my belief that one of the most remarkable characteristics of God is His respect for our freedom to make choices, even horribly wrong choices. If you accept that an all powerful God exists, how amazing that He will not override our free will. There are consequences for not following God-I believe we as a society are seeing those daily. Just as there would be consequences if I decided to put water in my car's engine instead of oil or if I decided to defy gravity and jump off a building. Our Founding Fathers did not make this stuff up. They recognized where true freedom comes from and built a country based upon that belief. It works. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. This system works despite imperfect people. Clipped and Shorn-I presume from your posts on this topic that I would be part of the mysterious, stupid, closeminded, antagonistic "they" that you have been referring to. You don't define the group very clearly, so I have to make assumptions, always risky even with more information than is presented here. "They" seems to include anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint. You know, it is possible to disagree with someone without being stupid or unenlightened. I'll tell you a true story. I used to live in Southeast Houston. A "truth seeking scientist" who was pretty high up in NASA came to the pastor of my church to ask some questions about Christianity. He was not a very happy man, but extremely intelligent. My pastor said this to him: "Would you say that you know 10% of everything there is to know in the world?" The man replied that no one person knew that much. By his own admission he felt he knew less than a fraction of 1% of all the knowledge in the world if even that much. To which my pastor then said: "I'll answer your questions if you will grant me that somewhere in the more than 99% of knowledge you don't possess, there may be something I know that you don't know." That man became a Christian. I tell that story because of the tone you take with people you appear to consider unenlightened. Consider the possibility that you may be wrong or guilty of flawed logic. Case in point-you wrote: "Mr. Horned expresses himself with thoughtful intelligence. "Certain afflicted individuals not possessing the ability to comprehend him resort to calling him liberal." "Ergo liberal is another word for thoughtful intelligence." Here is the flaw in your cause-effect reasoning. Make the following substitution for statements 2 & 3: "Certain afflicted individuals not possessing the ability to comprehend him resort to calling him a refrigerator." "Ergo refrigerator is another word for thoughtful intelligence." I happen to disagree with Horned on this subject. I do believe his argument is both thoughtful and intelligent as are all of his posts. The fact that I disagree with him on this issue doesn't lessen my respect for him or make me think he is stupid. We simply disagree on this subject. I enjoy people with strong well thought out opinions whether they agree with me or not. I also enjoy being around creative people. I spent 5 years as a fulltime musician creating music. So I don't seem to fit your stereotype even though I'm sure you would consider me part of "they". Your negative view of capitalism seems out of sync and somewhat hypocritical given the fact that you're using a computer and visiting a high end audio forum, both of which would not exist without capitalism. Kind of like talking animal rights wearing leather shoes and a fur coat. My advice would be to shore up your position a little more rather than resort to blanket erroneous characterizations of groups of people you don't know just because their views don't match yours. It almost makes you seem a little, I don't know... what's the word? Bigoted, closeminded, intolerant, hateful, arrogant...no wait, that's the rest of us isn't it?

I've got a feeling I'm going to regret posting on this topic, but here goes: I agree with Dean on this. The concept of separation of church and state has been thrown about and in my opinion distorted to take on a meaning never intended. The goal was to make sure the government did not establish an official state religion people were required to participate in. The words "under God" in a voluntary pledge fall way short of that in my eyes. A misrepresentation repeated often enough over time comes to be regarded as truth by many just due to the sheer volume of repetition. The individuals who established this country which makes possible this discussion in the first place were incredibly gifted people. No other country in the history of the world has accomplished the things this one has. There are many countries with equal or better natural resources-what makes America so unique? I believe the answer is that this country was founded as a free republic under God. Whether you like it or not, that is the truth. You may choose to believe in God or not-that is your choice. Regardless of what you or I may think about it, our history is what it is. If our Founding Fathers had not been driven by a belief in God and their desire to worship Him freely, this country as we know it would not have come to be. The reason our Founding Fathers held our personal freedoms as being inviolable was their belief that these basic rights were imparted to us by our Creator. Now you may disagree with their belief, but that does not change the fact that they believed it. Our Pledge of Allegiance mentions many more things than the phrase "under God". Maybe you don't think the states should be United-so what? They are. Maybe you don't think a Republic is the way to go-so what? That's what we have. Maybe you'd rather pledge allegiance to a group of nations rather than "one nation". So what? This is one nation. Got a problem with the word "indivisible"? How about "with liberty and justice for all"? The fact that it may rankle you that this is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles doesn't change history. The phrase "under God" is a recognition of not only our history but the very reason this country even exists. Clipped and Shorn-I don't even know where to start. I hope you were joking but I have a feeling you weren't. Do you really believe our culture is just hot dogs and fireworks and that fireworks are "a thinly disguised reminder that we like the drama of warfare"? Who are you speaking for? Not me, for sure. I don't like hot dogs and I just happen to think fireworks are pretty to look at and so does my 5 year old daughter who doesn't even know what war is yet. That's the problem with blanket statements about people you don't know. What group exactly are you referring to with that lengthy diatribe of namecalling? "Constant diet of right wing hate radio"-what are you talking about-your comments are far and away the most venom laced I have seen on this thread. "Right wing idiocy", "intolerant ugliness"-seems to me you are thus far the least tolerant post here. Do you honestly believe "truth seeking scientists" are our best hope? You mention the atom bomb, greedy corporations, oil in your list of villains...Hello, may I speak to the truth seeking scientist? I'm sorry, he is working on the atom bomb right now. Just who do you think creates the products that the greedy corporations sell and formulates the oil and gas that goes into your car? On a lighter note before the flames begin, forresthump-the only problem with your suggestion of "ship em all to France" is that France might think they are being invaded and surrender. (Just a joke)