overkill on surrounds or not?

[avklipsch]

I caught the klipsch bug when I bought my rf-5's. I am now going to have the chance to assemble a devoted home theater room in a guesthouse that will be built in the next year. I want go with klipschorns for the mains. What would be better for rear and surround speakers... heresy's or cornwalls? Would the cornwalls full potential get lost? I am a pro drummer and love stuff loud!!! Thanks

AV

[dougdrake]

If you've got room for Cornwalls, think you could squeeze La Scala's in there instead? Would be a great match to the KHorns!! Use LAS for the center and surrounds...

Doug

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My System

[boa12]

overkill only comes from having a budget. a big center makes the most sense for multi-channel HT as about 75% of the sound is there.

but for surrounds, & even rear surrounds, big can be easily rationalized too. i have corns for surrounds

now & am constantly amazed by how much low bass the mixers put in the rear for 5.1 movies. the center too though i don't have the room yet for a big center.

& for running stereo music on all the speaks, as w/ the "5-7 channel stereo" modes, bigs in the rear speaks for itself.

when i get the room i'm getting khorn fronts w/ a lascala or belle center. current cornwalls will remain as surrounds. i'll then try the current klf-30 mains as rear surround. maybe by then i can also use the current 2-C7 centers for future formats. otherwise i'll have 2 "dinky" C7 for sale.

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My Home Systems Page

[Malcolm]

IMHO Cornwalls would be great as surround and rear speakers with your Klipschorns. They have lower bass and are a better sensitivity match to your Klipschorns than Heresys. Surround is full range now and you will make good use of the Cornwalls. You will want a good sub to go with whatever you chose.

[HornEd]

With a pair of Klipschorns in the corner, a Belle in the center... and a pair of Cornwalls for surrounds... I know, first hand, of what you speak. The Cornwalls are an excellent match... because PWK designed them to be!

Now, I would still prefer three more Belles or LaScalas to fill out my music system... for they are fully horn-loaded... and Cornwalls are not. But, a Cornwall, IMHO, are a cut above Heresey... for they have the raw cubic inches to bring out more character.

Of course, along with Q-Man, my current upgrade passion is a room designed to be worthy of six Klipschorns!

In my experience, the latest 5.1 (and above) DVD's deserve all the Klipsch Sound you can afford... and fit into your listening area. There is a Klipsch Surround Sound above and beyond WDST's of yesteryear! -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 08-22-2002 at 02:33 PM

[boa12]

"Of course, along with Q-Man, my current upgrade passion is a room designed to be worthy of six Klipschorns! -HornED"

now ed, that has to be the pinnacle, at least as far as speaker go w/ the current available formats. good luck in that quest.

so basically you're going to make false corners in the front & rear centers of the room? or real corners in the building of a room?

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My Home Systems Page

[cluless]

This 6 corner room construction thing has really got me buffaloed also. I'd probably drink one too many, and get lost trying to find my way outta the room

[jtkinney]

Clu, I thought lived in a fishbowl already! 6 sides should be an improvement!

I have the K-horns and LaScalas for front and rear, now I just need centers. Can't fit Belle's or LaScalas, so I may have to follow HornEd and just build something.

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Jim

Family Room:

1978 Klipschorns (mains), SF'2's (center), 1979 La Scalas (rear surrounds), RC-3 Rear Center, KSW-10 Subs (pair)

Yamaha RX-V1 Reciever, Yamaha CDC-655 CD Player, Toshiba SD-1200 DVD, Toshiba TN50X81 50" HDTV

Bedroom:

Yamaha RX-V590, SF-1's Mainsc>s>

[HornEd]

Well, cluless and Boa, my hero, Q-Man has done just about everything a person could do to make a rectangular room into an ultimate K-horn config using false walls. Our search now has extended to building a custom room with wall, floor and ceiling angles ideally configured to enhance six fully horn-loaded K-Horns... and maybe a few LaScalas for effects.

The challenge of optimizing a room for six Klipschorns is a thorny one. Most of my experience has been in making existing rooms work with the best speakers I can muster... but starting from the speakers and working outward brings up a huge potential of controllable variables and speculation as to their interaction.

I'll keep you posted. -HornED

[jtkinney]

Oops, double post.

This message has been edited by jtkinney on 08-22-2002 at 03:15 PM

[boa12]

" and maybe a few LaScalas for effects."

oma gosh. that's just great thinking.

for me, dreaming.

besides, i'll have to figure out some use for the klf-30 & 2-c7s.

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My Home Systems Page

[Q-Man]

Horn Ed,

My room is still on paper only. My home builder friend is still pricing out the plans that I drew up. He has details of the home , but not the room. That I want to build. I'm now wondering if I might benefit ( sound wise) by using foam block walls instead of cinder block. The foam block inside and outside surface is 2" thick, then you pour in concrete. A concrete sandwich.

I still may have to just remodel my home, and add on a room. I don't feel I can afford a new home right now. I just hate to over price my home for the neighbor hood. But, if that's what it takes to get my six corner room , so be it.

I just took my oldest son off to his first year of college and that's putting a damper on my toy buying.

I even gave him a pair of KG-5.5 speakers, a new A/V receiver, and a DVD player. I lucked out and also got him a four year old 40" Mitsubishi for $200.00. I'm building two walls of Library cabinets for someone and he needed to get this TV out of the room. Now I'm wondering if I should give him my KLF-C7, since I never used it. I may sell it instead. I'm beginning to feel like I'm going to spoil the kid. He needed a new computer, and now I have to build him a desk. So, I'll sit on the C-7 while I build the desk and think about it. I'm getting off of the subject, so I'll sign off. I guess I miss the kid, and I find myself thinking of him alot.

Q.

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Q-Man

[Q-Man]

AV,

I'm sorry. I should have answered your question, but I felt Horn Ed did.

There is no such thing as over kill. Klipschorns all around! If you must, you can always use LaScalas in the rear.

Q.

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Q-Man

[skonopa]

this attached diagram is the only way I could think of doing it (although you could probably doing it using a "diamond" configuration). You would need one heck of a big room to accomplish it though. The "K"'s in the diagram designated the K-horns and the "S"'s designate the subwoofers (which you would still need for HT).

To add, you could put the rear K-horns in the two rear corners as well, thus eliminating the two false corners on the sides. I made that diagram with the idea of putting the surrounds at or slightly behind the seating area.

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Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802 (Receiver)

RF-7 (Fronts)

RC-7 (Center)

RC-7 (Rear)

RS-7 (A Surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B Surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - Recycled)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

Sharp DX-200 (CD - ancient)

RCA DWD490RE (DirecTV/Ultimate TV receiver)

Sharp 32 inch (TV)

This message has been edited by skonopa on 08-22-2002 at 08:40 PM

[Q-Man]

One or two of the drawings that I sent to Horn Ed is a diamond shaped room. The advantages of the diamond shape is that it places the K-Horns all equil distance from the main seating area, gives you room for a couple pairs of LaScalas to fill in the void spots, and gives you more seating. The diamond shape also helps by eliminating those darn parallel walls and standing waves. If I have to compromise, because of either a new home or an addition the room may end up more like the one you drew. I would only have the rear wall wider then the front wall. Now mating it more of a horn shape. It will flare out from the front of the room.

There will be six K-Horns, actually two pairs and one pair of Jensen Imperials. One pair of LaScalas for the front effect channels, another pair of LaScalas for an extra pair of rear surrounds. I'm running 10 channels now and thats why the next serious tweak has to be a new room.

Q.

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Q-Man

[skonopa]

Q, you are suggesting something like this diagram, which is one example of a diamond layout? The "L"'s indicate possible place for LaScala/Belle. I guess I'll have to try my luck with the Lotto. This is making me drool with envy. There is no way I'll be able to try anything like that with my current house and situation.

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Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802 (Receiver)

RF-7 (Fronts)

RC-7 (Center)

RC-7 (Rear)

RS-7 (A Surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B Surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - Recycled)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

Sharp DX-200 (CD - ancient)

RCA DWD490RE (DirecTV/Ultimate TV receiver)

Sharp 32 inch (TV)

[avman]

you guys are out-of-control!

6 k-horns!!

i've been REALLY happy w/my set up.

i can only(really) imagine what hornEd's set up sounds like!

good luck and keep on tweaking!! avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center (looking for 1-m.o.klf-20)

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

jvc s-vhs-et hi-fi stereo vcr

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

Natuzzi red leather furniture set

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[Q-Man]

Skonopa,

This would be simple if I could post a drawing, but since I can't try this.

Use an 11" x 17" piece of paper.

On the top of the page, 11" side, draw a 6 3/4" line(line 1). Ninty degrees off each end of that line draw a 3" line towards the bottom of the page, (line 2 & 3).

Draw a center line ninty degreess off of (line 1) towards the bottom of the page, (line 4). From the bottom of (line 4) draw a 4 1/2" line to the left and right from that center line and parallel to (line 1).This will be (line 5). Off of both ends of (line 5)

at ninty degrees draw a 1" line up towards (line 1). These will be (lines 6 & 7). Connect the ends of (lines

6 & 7) to the end of (line 4) where it meets (line 5). Connect the end of (line 6) to the end of (line 2) and connect the end of (line 7) to the end of (line 3). Erase lines 5,6, and 7.

Now draw a line parallel to (line 1) 1" towards the bottom of the page.Call this (line 8). Add three niches into (line 8) for the 3 front K-Horns. One on the center line (line 4) and two for the main speakers. You need to angle or toe the main speaker niches toward the sweet spot. We also need to build a niche (false corner) into the center of the back wall for the rear center channel K-Horn. The two rear corners are ninty degrees and already aim the rear surrounds at the sweet spot.

The rear section of the room will have a min. of an 18" raised floor so the K-Horns midrange and tweeter will be at least 6' off the floor from the lower level.

The front niches are about 5' off the floor. This is where the front effect LaScalas will sit. The LaScalas will be above and behind the main K-Horns, back in the corners.

Two pairs of LaScalas will be used as fill around the back and the sides of the room. They will be a min. of 4' off the floor.

There will be no windows, and only one door into the room.

The scale of this drawing is 1/4" = 1'.

Look under Odds and Mods, ( Q-Mans University Classic)

There Horn Ed posted a picture of my existing front end. It will give you an Idea of what I want to do. That is a 16' wall, the one you just drew is 27'.

Q.

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Q-Man

This message has been edited by Q-Man on 08-23-2002 at 10:56 AM

[HornEd]

It's great to see this six-corner discussion evolve. Sorry that I do not have the time and opportunity to provide some drawings while on the road. But, at least I can add a "SEVENTH CORNER to the discussion!

As you know, putting a subwoofer in a corner can raise its SPL performance by 6 dB. That is as much SPL improvement as you can get by adding an identical subwoofer to your system. Since I have found that stacking subwoofers (they must be stacked base end to base end for SVS to allow proper port flow), my designs include a seventh corner for the stacked Ultras.

Dr. Floyd E. Toole (world's foremost acoustics and psychoacoustics authority by most pro's reckoning) is a big advocate of diamond shaped listening areas because they tend to increase the "sweet spot" and invite "social seating" rather than the typical "theater seating" in a small "ideal" sound area.

In my latest "noodlings" of a modified diamond, the screen cuts off one "double corner" of the room. The double corner is made by building an elevated false floor, ceiling and walls which "float" inside the real corner. The real corner holds stacked subwoofers and the centered (horizontally and vertically) false corner holds the center Klipschorn.

Thus, the Klipschorns mains are in corners nearer the screen and all room walls have a slanted wood stud, insulation and double sheetrock wall to minimize standing waves and enhance inherent acoustics properties.

The three "rear corners" are built to provide the maximum psychoacoustics effect in a rear array. That means that the "sound wedge" extending from each rear speaker is angled for a maximum area sweet spot (i.e., all speakers converge in an expanded maximal listening area).

The "foam block" approach sounds interesting... my experience with cinder block theaters has been less than ideal due to the room being too "live" and, thus, encouraging standing waves. In my current designs, I have included an insulated stud wall over any concrete or cinder block walls for that reason.

Fortunately, Q, my offspring are long sprung from house and university... and, yes, "pseudo missing child syndrome" can last a lifetime... so far as I have been able to tell. My youngest is 34. Now, if I can only extend my lifetime to get this HT & multi-channel K-Horn room built...

One of the holdups has been the low lumen output of most upscale projectors short of light valve technology (which I used for a showroom theater... but the huge light valve unit cost $90k by itself... and lit up an 18' x 9' screen like few you have ever seen). But projection technology is improving rapidly... and I am also holding out for a Component quality signal (that I currently use) instead of going back to S-Video quality.

Wow, look at the time, I need to be on the road looking for a new place to build this thing. -HornED

PS: Here's another look at the front end of my hero, Q-Man's false cornered extravaganza...

This message has been edited by HornEd on 08-23-2002 at 09:57 AM

[boa12]

how about 6-7 subs in each of the 6-7 corners as well?

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My Home Systems Page