AndyKubicki Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I have been up waaaay too late tonight! I just picked up a Sony SACD player, http://www.sonystyle.com/home/item.jsp?hierc=9686&itemid=18241 . I am evaluating the player and have 29 days to return it if I'm not happy. It was a demo, so I got it for $129 and thought I can't go wrong with the return policy. My wife and I picked up a SACD by Celine (wife's choice, not mine) to compare to a CD in our collection to do an A/B. I read several reviews where the SACD portion of this player was rated very well. My other unit is a Pioneer DV 434, not a real high end unit. I must say that neither my wife, my son, nor I heard a great deal of difference between the 2! The SACD was a little less bright. As we speak, I left it on play to see if a burn in would help, so tomorrow we'll try this again. Maybe another set of CDs will reveal the difference? I have Blood Sweat and Tears as a reg CD and there is a SACD available...maybe I should try that...but I wanted to see if anyone here has heard the difference. BTW, I have BS&T's greatest hits also which was remastered, so a couple tunes are on both CDs and comparing those two (CD/CD-remastered) showed more of a difference than the CD/SACD. I know you get what you pay for, and this is a cheap price, but both DVD players are close in price, so if the SACD format is better, it should be obvious. I also should be getting my ALK xovers soon, so I wonder if that will make the difference more revealing... ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434 This message has been edited by AndyKub on 08-22-2002 at 04:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 When I had my shop, I heard a mixed bag of comments on SACD fom my customers. Some thought it was great, others were ho-hum about it. While at CES this year, I was surprised at the relative lack of SACD/DVD-A hype. While a $500 SACD player may (note: may, not will) sound better than a $500 red book player, when you factor in the cost of SACD-CDs, things don't look so hot anymore. IMO, SACD will eventually flop for the following reasons: 1. Availability of recordings. While Sony may be releasing SACD recordings, they are a drop in the bucket in the global picture. 2. They are too expensive, and even if they were priced comparably to red book CDs, see #3 3. There is a strong likelyhood that another "newer, better" technology will emerge at any time therefore recording companies, manufacturers, etc., may not be willing to lay out the capital expenditures to re-tool for SACD. 4. Given reason #3, DVD is already ubiquitous and manufacturers are most likely to re-tool for DVD-A. 5. Three formats is already too many. 6. Yeah, I know Sony is big, blah, blah, but they've screwed up before, even though their format was superior (Betamax). If I'm wrong, no prob. I love my digital front end. If/when SACD catches on, maybe I'll get one. In the meantime, I'll let the techie lovers pay the outrageous CD prices to subsidize SACD technlogy. This message has been edited by Mike82 on 08-22-2002 at 09:33 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 A note of caution to the Upgrader Patrol: Dont get too caried away and purchase these low cost SACD/DVD players. You will bring subpar electronics that ride along with most low cost digital units such as poor power supplies, filtering, and cost cutting measures right and left. Trouble is, people read about the magic of SACD and, like is customary with biped consumption, flock to the generalities over the specifics. In other words, a good redbook player with an excellent analog/digital stage with attention to the amplication/filtering/power supply will sound better than the subpar "latest technology" implemented with cheap opamps and other Short-Circuit City fare. This low cost players can sound just as bright and overly analytical as the regular troops de la digititis. Ditto with the ultra cheap 24Bit machines that also suffer from this malady. There is a lot more to these machines than the processor, bit count, sampling rate, signal to noise creature comforts that most use as a buying guide. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Andy, It's very much like what Paul Klipsch said about his speakers: If you don't like what's coming out, you wouldn't like what's going in. (Sorry for the paraphrase; I don't remember the quote exactly.) If the original tape has any problems, you're going to hear them on the SACD. It's not going to improve a bad source. I have no idea what your titles are like because I haven't heard them, so I am speaking generally. Just remember, you can't blame the medium for the limitations of the recording any more than you can blame a camera if the girl in a photo looks ugly. Sony, at least, transfers their master tapes to SACD flat, with no EQ boosting. On the one comparison you made where the CD was a little brighter, that was probably EQ'd in for the CD to make it sound more appealing for the masses. So, a few things to listen for when comparing SACD to CD: 1) Better placement of instruments in orchestral recordings. Instead of the violas being vaguely over there, they are *there*--that is, you can hear them where they should be in relation to the other instruments. 2) Better decay of instruments, more natural. Also the attack is better. 3) Resolution, especially of low level content, is way superior. 4) Overall musical feel. Don't even think about it, just see if you are more taken away by the music. 5) You may be expecting too much because of the audiophile tendency to exaggerate. Don't expect to be blown away, or knocked senseless, or have your jaw hit the floor, or be dazed, etc. Just expect to hear what you would hear listening to an open reel master tape played back in the studio--essentially that is what you will be hearing. There are a few people who hate SACD for reasons I have not been able to fathom. But you're never going to get complete agreement about anything, even whether or not it's raining out. Most of the arguments around SACD are not whether or not it is superior to CD, but whether or not it is superior to vinyl. Like a lot of people, I think SACD gives you the best of both worlds, that is, analog sound with digital convenience. If you like rock, 22 Rolling Stones releases on ABKCO are coming out on Tuesday on SACD/CD hybrids. You could give one of them a try. They'll cost all of $12.99 at BestBuy and places like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Not all that long ago I jumped into SACD with both feet. I bought a combo Sony NS900 player and around 70 titles. My conclusion at the time was that it was a considerable improvement over CD, even XRCD. Since then I got into vinyl. As much as an improvement as I thought SACD was over CD it pales in comparison to vinyl on my system. The difference is so big that I suspect the above combo player is really, as Mobile says, a piece of junk and not doing anything for the medium. At about the same time as I bought a friend picked up a dedicated Sony SACD player - the 770 (not the higher priced 777 - the 770 was the bottom of the range and priced similarly to my combo unit). I have noticed that the difference between SACD and vinyl on his system is rather less marked but still very much there. I suspect that the better units make a big difference in the sound and may even be able to better my humble TT (the Project RPM 4). I just wouldnt want to invest so much money in a player to find out - especially as I am buying vinyl at about 1/5th to 1/3rd the price of the SACD disks - with an almost infinite selection of titles available. My suspicions are that both SACD and DVDa are in for a very rocky road ahead and that indeed both may fail in the end. Further, I am far from convinced that the currently avaiable CD's are anyway near the capabilities of the medium. ------------------ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Paul, all SACD players are not created equal. Neither are the normal fare digital brethren. The format on its own is not a life saver when done with shoddy implementation. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Kelly, Have you heard any modded SACD players, with aftermarket attention to the specifics you mentioned? If so, what did you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Two questions: AndyKub: Which Celine Dion CD where you using for the comparison? ALL: What is the definition of a Redbook Player? Mike ------------------ 4 Cornwalls & McIntosh SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Mike, Redbook just refers to normal, standard CDs. To anyone concerned about whether SACD will make it into the homes of the larger buying public, it has a better chance than vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 22, 2002 Author Share Posted August 22, 2002 Mike, you make a strong argument for me to wait. I do think that something like a Marantz with the added ability to play DVD-A would probably make more sense, and the electronis are surely much better. As to the price of SACDs themselves, How much were audio CDs when they first came out, remember? And yes, I suppose that SACD might not catch on...we'll see. Kelly, I would not have brought this unit home if I did not have the option to bring it back for a full refund. It is CHEAP, feels CHEAP, and we'll see if it performs the same, but I wanted to check it out. So far, it's only a bit better than the Pioneer. I won't be able to take back any CDs, but have only 1 so far. Paul, when my wife and I were trying to decide whether to get a newer Celine or older Blood Sweat & Tears SACD, we went with the newer created Celine SACD thinking that the recording itself would be better. The BS&T CDs are from the 70s and tape hiss is present whereas newer CDs do not suffer from this. Mike, the CDs are Celine All The Way, CD and SACD. Thanks for asking for the definition of Redbook Player, as I was wondering about that myself...is it just currently available for sale players? ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Andy, The reason I ask about the Celine Dion CD is that I believe that her "Falling Into You" CD is one of the best recorded CDs that I own (I have 3 others that are nice, but not in the same league nor are they the one you have). The "Seduces Me" track on it really shows off my Cornwalls. Mike ------------------ 4 Cornwalls & McIntosh SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I am certainly not a fan of audiophile CDs or music to just listen to your system qualities but there are two such CDs that are not too painful in the music department even though it is not really my choice for content alone. No, Patricia Barber is surely no Billie Holiday or Sarah Vaughan, but she is better than many contemporaries and I believe preferable to someone like Celine Dion, who is much more commercial sounding. Either of these Patricia Barber offerings, however, make for excellent audition CDs to hear some of what a system is doing: Patricia Barber "Cafe Blue" EMD/Bluenote http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=2062033930/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=BARBER*PATRICIA/itemid=791366 Patricia Barber "Companion" EMD/Bluenote http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=2062033930/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=BARBER*PATRICIA/itemid=798050 kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Mobile, I always appreciate suggestions on CDs that are new to me! I clicked on the links you provided and listened to most of the clips by Patricia Barber. She must be an acquired taste. But, I've come across alot of new things I like, based on peoples suggestions, so keep'm coming. Mike ------------------ 4 Cornwalls & McIntosh SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANOCASTER Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 first of all...BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT PLAYING THAT CELINE DION CD..THE ACTUAL MUSIC ITSELF MAY ROT THE SYSTEM FROM THE INSIDE OUT..( just a warning ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I upgraded from a CEC 2 to a Sony 777ES and could not be happier. The CD playback is just as good or better (MSB with upsampling). The best CD's that I have found are from Stereophile (https://secure.stereophile.com/stereophile/recordings.shtml). They just sound better than the standard slcok. J Norvell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 If am still recovering from you actually liking Celine Dion but scratching thy head with Patricia Barber. Neither is really my cup of tea but at least Barber has some redeeming material. Dion is from Quebec, however, and I have come to love that area. I will give her that. Toss the audiophile dreck to the side and throw on some good Billie Holiday. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Well, I will vote for DVD-A Imagine this: Hi-definition music in a system. AND The potential to make a "music DVD-A" with music videos and the like. Sounds like a plan to me!!! ---------- :::ALSO::: ---------- Most people have cheap boom boxes. Will there be a demand for SACD's and DVD-A unless 50+% of people get a hi-end system. Also, what is the BS with the CHEAP Sony speakers having tweeters that go up to 100 KHz.? Like those are reference-quality speakers!!! Speakers for dogs? ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 23, 2002 Author Share Posted August 23, 2002 I am certainly not a fan of audiophile CDs or music to just listen to your system qualities Neither am I. It's about the music first. However, if you enjoy a piece of music, such as Stravinsky's Firebird, which contains passages which would just not sound right on a system incapable of delivering what the music calls for. Though I am not listening just to the system, I am greatly delighted when the system's ability to deliver a sonic quality evokes strong emotions that the music presents. The two work together. Yeah, it puts a smile on my face. Musical tastes differ, as do sonic tastes. That is why some like Celine (wife), others like King Crimson (me), some like tubes, others like SS. What matters in music to me first is the composition: it must be interesting. My wife loves vocals and composition for her is secondary. Mike (or anyone else), here's a band you can check out (since you said you are open) if composition is important to you also, though playing the composition is done extremely well by them too. Gentle Giant http://www.blazemonger.com/GG/ Paul, I can't say I've heard anything you laid out in your 5 points, but maybe because I'm not a Celine fan, I am just listening to the system and switching back and forth. I wish I had an SACD for each of my CDs to compare...then I would know! It could also be that cheap electronics are indeed not delivering enough of the medium's details. ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> This message has been edited by AndyKub on 08-23-2002 at 01:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Well for those of you that are into female vocals I wuold recommend Jacintha as an Jazz artist with a staggering voice that can be compared on the best of CD (XRCD Recording) and on SACD (Here's to Ben and Autumn Leaves) in both 2 channel and multi-channel formats (Lush life only). Between me and a friend of mine we have all of the above titles on both formats and it does make for some interesting comparisons. After much testing I prefered the SACD recordings as they were software and warmer whilst he prefered the CD recordings for exactly the same reasons. Horses for courses I suppose. If you want to get hold of any of the above I got mine at www.elusivedisc.com. Actually - I am on the way there myself to see if they have any of these on vinyl too - that would be interesting!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Andy: Gentle Giant is new to me. I checked out about 5 of their albums on CDNOW and interestingly their album "Acquiring The Taste" was the best of the five, I thought . So it's it off to eBay to find a copy..... Well I'm back. The prices with shipping are right at what I can buy it for at my local Best Buy. I'll pick up a copy this weekend. Thanks Andy!! One last Celine Dion comment: MUSIC covers a wide spectrum. There is something out there for almost everyone. We all have individual tastes. Mine are pretty varied. Celine strickes a cord with me, in particular the previously mentioned CD and track, but so do many others. A couple of suggestions: "Ella and Louis" Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong Recorded in 1955 on Verve. It can be found on both the original vinyl and on CD. "All for You" Diana Krall Happy Hunting and Listening, Mike ------------------ 4 Cornwalls & McIntosh SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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