KLF-10s or RF-3IIs?

[RoyMcKie]

Hi folks, newbie. I am going with my first HT system and could use some advice on speaker system. My choices are:

Receiver - Denon 3803

HDTV - one of the folowing:

Hitachi 51SWX20B

Mitsubishi WS55411

I liked the KLF-10s audutioned, but the center and surrounds may be a problem. I understand the timbre matching issue, so what would be good choices for matching the KLF-10s? They were auditioned for me using KC3IIB for center, with SS1Bs for rears. It was pointed out to me on another board that this system is a combination of the Legend, Reference, and Synergy series and were not timbre mathed. I also listened to a complete R-3II system and was pleased with the results. The KLF-10s are currently on sale at tweeter for $599, so that is appealing. I have decided to allow a budget of $2000, so the R-3IIs are within that range, but are they really worth the difference? I have read alot about Klipsh speakers, but after a while get lost in all the information. Are the 10" woofers in the KLF-10s an advantage over the 8" woofers in the RF-3IIs? I would be grateful for some advice to help steer me in the right direction. Thanks in advance.

Roy

[PHIL O]

In my opinion the KLF-10 is not a bad speaker, but when it is played against the RF3-II it doesn't seem so attractive, (in my opinion) the RF3-II has better highs and can dig just as deep in bass as the KLF-10. And the RF3-II takes up less space as well. The KlF-10 (in my opinion) is a speaker that dealers are trying to get off their floors to make room.

But these are just my opinions, you don't have to take it from me.

[PHIL O]

Oh and by the way the new Cerametallic speaker in Klipsch now is a vast improvement over the old speakers. The RF3-II replaced the RF3 which (I think) replaced the KLF-10, and the RF5 replaced the KLF-20, and the RF7 replaced the KLF-30. Notice how they replaced bigger speakers with smaller (10" to 8", 12" to 10"), These are new and improved speakers.

[fabulousfrankie]

----------------

On 12/23/2002 7:35:48 PM PHIL O wrote:

Oh and by the way the new Cerametallic speaker in Klipsch now is a vast improvement over the old speakers. The RF3-II replaced the RF3 which (I think) replaced the KLF-10, and the RF5 replaced the KLF-20, and the RF7 replaced the KLF-30. Notice how they replaced bigger speakers with smaller (10" to 8", 12" to 10"), These are new and improved speakers.

----------------

Phil,

I'm not trying to start an argument, just giving my opinion. I think I actually prefer the sound of the KLF-30 vs RF-7. Both speakers will rock your world but IMO, the RF-7's are not better just different. I haven't heard much of the KLF-20 or the RF-5's, but I also think that the RF-3II's are going to be the better speaker when compared to the KLF-10.

Another thing to consider Roy is the availability of the Legend center. The used to sell quite often on ebay. The KLF-C7 is a much better center than the RC-3II but it is FREAKIN HUGE!

Here's a guy who wants to sell his used KLF-30's from HTF, it's great deal.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114317

[dougdrake]

I also wonder if the move to smaller woofers (12" to 10", 10" to 8") is driven more by the consumers' desire to have a narrow, deep speaker footprint (a smaller "face" if you will) than a change in the laws of physics which permits a smaller surface area to move more air.

DD

[PHIL O]

Once again these are just opinions... I've never actually heard the KLF-30's but I do know people who own them and they are very satisfied and haven't thought about upgrading or selling them. But I've heard the KLF-10 side by side with the RF3-II, and the RF3-II had the slight edge, or maybe the RF3 sounded better to me because that was the speaker that I had pedetermined to buy.

As far as size goes when I'm out audio shopping or browsing I hear a lot of people say that they lack space, so that could be a reason. There's a lot of people willing to spend good money on audio but don't want to look like they're getting ready to DJ for the prom.

But these are just my opinions...

[Biggus]

Phil, I'm setting up a HT system similar to yours,

RF3-II's (front)

RF3-II's (rears)

RC3-II (center)

I'm looking for a reciever and could buy the Denon 3802 now for ($1150CAN) or wait a month to get the 3803 ($1750CAN). I know, what the technical differences are, but not sure if the 3803 is as warm as the 3802 (I'd prefer a warmer reciever with the Klipsch Reference Series). Do you think the 3803 is worth the extra money or should I buy the 3802 and save a few bucks? My second question is do you think that adding another RF3-II as a rear center (going from a 5.1 to 6.1) would improve my setup? Thanks,

Mike

[RoyMcKie]

Fab-Frank

I saw that add for the KLF-30s and have considered responding, but the availability of the center has kept me from doing so. Also, what would be a good choice for rears?

[kjohnsonhp]

The KLF-C7 is recommended for center w/KLF-10 and you could use another pair of KLF-10's for rears.

There have been several new C7's for sale on ebay. I would sell mine in Oak (lower price but used) as I have a Heritage system and have an Academy coming after Xmas (if that deal falls through then I'll use a Heresy for better timbre matching than C7 with my Cornwalls).

The new Reference Series provides more options for speaker placement and I've heard good results with:

* FRONT: RF-3 II towers

* SURROUNDS: RS-3 II (on side walls, 1' farther back than listener, 1-3' above your ears)

* CENTER: RC-3 II

* REAR(s): RC-3 II (or 2 RB-5 II's or 2 RCW-5 in-walls)

Speaker selection of course is very room dependent.

For your display the Mitsu 411 is getting great reviews as a truely new model where the 511 is very close to last year's Platinum Plus w/int tuner. My biggest concern with the 411 which doesn't have int. tuner or 1394 is the lack of Firewire or DVI and especially the possibility that DVI will be needed in the future. HDTV will require either the Promise Module at $1k installed on back of set or a set-top-box connected with Component Video. A Firewire or DVI connection would be 5C compliant digital straight to display and theoretically better but I've gotten three opinions that one can't see the difference between DVI or 1394 and component.

I'm waiting for a DirecTV/TiVO combo box and will connect it with component to my WS55819 and hope I'm not missing out by not having Firewire or DVI. In the short term there seems to be Firewire options but in the longer term DVI seems to be winning.

For DVI you drop Mitsubishi and look at your Hitachi option (and all other brands). I heard that the Mitsu has more "tweakability" and when ISF calibrated has a better picture than the Hitachi which has less "tweakability". Of course this is just what I read--ask an ISF calibrater.

Have you thought about how you will migrate to HDTV and record HDTV in the future (OTA, cable, SAT, TiVo, DVHS)? I would also get advice from an ISF calibrater on ease of fixing Red Push and calibrated pic quality.

I now kinda wish I had the integrated OTA HDTV tuner for network HDTV (SuperBowl) while I wait for HDTV from my cable operator or more channels from SAT. I could then get unscrambled cable HDTV w/o a box and scrambled Cable or SAT with a box connected with Firewire instead of component.

I also could connect a HTPC to the VGA port instead of using transcoder.

[RoyMcKie]

Well folks, I finally decided on the KLF-30s with KLF-C7. They are in the mail. Now I need to find a good deal (dont we all) on some KSP-S6s, and my speaker system will be complete, for a while anyway. Will pick up an SVS 25-31 sub soon.

Kjohnsonhp-

Thanks for the comments on HDTV. I will have to make that desicion soon. Still not certain which way to go, but after the Denon and speakers are in place it wont take me long. I am just afraid my patience will wear thin and a coin toss may decide.

Roy

[HornEd]

Roy, I have enjoyed watching you ramble on to a purchase of KLF-30's with a C7 for the center. Having taken the same road a few years ago, Now I have six KLF-30's, three KLF-10's, two KLF-C7's... and no partridge or pear tree. See, there's no end to the upgrade path... particularly at Christmas time.

Hmmm, maybe that's how I wound up with over two dozen Klipsch speakers... from the mighty Klipschorns down to the value oriented SB-2's which were bought to be Front Effects speakers. The K-Horns with a Belle in the middle (just like Paul W. Klipsch liked 'em) are great for music... but the KLF-30's are fantastic for HT... and have a lot of musical qualities to boot. To my mind, the K-horns are probably smoother than a lot of HT fare deserves.

You'll find the SVS a good transparent match for the KLF-30's. I use a pair of SVS Ultras driven by 1,000 watts for mine.

I have owned both Mitsubishi and Hitachi Big Screen TV's. I was dissappointed in the Hitachis because they initially seemed to be the better choice... but in two tries, they just didn't hold up. The Mitsubishis I have owned have given me great service and zero problems. I believe Mitsu outsells all other Big Screen brands. Currently I have a 65" 16:9 RPHD that I feed a progressive scan image at 480P... and prefer the picture to anything I have seen in plasma or dsp projectors for sharpness and clarity.

You mentioned "timbre matching" in a post above and I agree that it is one of the most critical aspects of putting together a great system. I wrote a rather long post on timbre matching after someone sent me an email asking me to write "all I know about timbre matching." You might like to look it up... it will introduce some more issues in the center and surrounds that you are contemplating. You should find the timbre post at http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=28421&forumID=69&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={2C2F53E0-0A94-4906-9A0F-D275CAE820BE}

If I knew the size of your proposed listening area I could offer a few more suggestions. Be advised that the KLF-30's are voiced differently and, thus, are not as closely timbre matched as you might assume... no matter who makes the recommendation. Also, the KSP-S6 is a forerunner of the WDST technology and lacks the directional woofer that gives some localization to rear channels.

Now, there are a lot of good folks on this Forum who swear by the KSP-S6's but they are designed to bounce the surround channels around the room creating "ambient" sound at the expense of directionality. INHO, the trend in DVD sound mixing is to take fulll advantage of the full-range side/surround channels by mixing them both for directionaility and ambience. The ambience is achieved by adding additional sounds to more than one speaker.

There was a time in the old ProLogic days when the surround channel was narrow and just contained audio clues with the primary sound coming out of the left and right mains... but those days are past... hopefully never to return. I will also say that of the speakers of that type, the Klipsch KSP-S6's are some of the best ever built by any popular priced speaker manufacturer!

I realize that you are all excited about finding a KLF-C7... but once again, you should take a hard look at what you put in the center. Modern DVD's put upwards of 75% of the total sound of the DVD through the front center channel. In effect, for music your left and right mains are indeed the MAINS... but in DVD's, the front center is THE MAIN... and a KLF-C7 can be stressed and shrill in that position IMHO. When a tank or a Ferrari rumbles across your front array... it will sound quite different in the middle than it does at the sides. I finally bought another KLF-30 and rebuilt the motorboard to make a KLF-30 center... and it's the best thing I ever did to my HT. The second best was building a dual SVS Ultra seven foot sub-tower. The third best thing was putting three more KLF-30's in the rear array as side/surrounds and rear effects. Now, when sound travels from front-to-back or side-to-side... I'm getting the sounds timbre matched and with all the directionality that the sound engineer intended. It's something to think about as you plod down the inevitable upgrade trail.

Happy New Year... better audio days are coming! -HornED