Help Me Finish My Surround System - Advise Needed (Or will accept donations)

[DillonW]

I have longed for a quality home theater system for over 15 long years, and now my system is finally coming together. I have three critical components left and would really like some experienced input to make sure I finish this right. Here is what I have so far:

TV; Toshiba 61H70 Rear Projection

DVD: Sony 560D

Fronts; La Scalas

Front Effects: NONE

Rears; Chorus IIs

Rear Center: NONE

Center; KLF-C7

Subwoofer: NONE

Receiver; Yamaha RX-V3000

The Yamaha has 8.1 capability with two additional front effects speakers, but only 25W per channel, so what would you recommend? (RS-3s?) It also has a rear center that I will need, but what do I get to go between the Chorus IIs? It has to be wall mounted, my room is too narrow for floorstanding.

Also, I want a subwoofer, which is something I have never owned before. It will be primarily for movies, but must be somewhat musical and cost less than, or around $500. As a Klipsch fan, I was considering the KSW-15, but it seems to get mixed reviews.

Any help, comments, suggestions, or donations will be gladly accepted!

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Thanks,

Bill Dillon

[HornEd]

Welcome Bill, in this BB land of Denon Demons, Marantz Mavens and Totally Tubular Types there are still some Yammie Yodelers who have hung on. Klipsch horns are special... and so is the Yamaha RX-V3000. I, too, took the meager 25 watt output of the front effects to be too low to think much of... and mounted a pair of SB-2's on five foot columns and had great front effects.

I had been using three KLF 10's as surrounds and rear effects but replaced them with KLF 30's (the same as my mains). On a whim, I mounted a pair of KLF 10's on three foot pedestals to replace the SB-2's. I was absolutely amazed!

The KLF 10's are so efficient that they made the front sound stage come alive like I haven't heard since I left my K-horns behind in a divorce decree. Of course, I use an analog Radio Shack SPL meter to set my speakers through the V3000 to be a bit below the mains to create a larger, background sound stage on which the KLF 30's can do their thing. And do it they do!

I prefer using surrounds and rear effects speaker to match my mains so that I have the best match for tone and timbre for HT... and that, too, makes a difference.

The surrounds are at the side, aimed just behind the primary listening area and a single KLF 30 serves as the rear effects speaker... blending the rear sound stage ambient and holding the potential to really kick on any discrete programming. Of course, the V3000 converts 5.1 to matrixed 6.1 (and 6.1 as 6.1) which I find to be a huge V3000 asset. I generally use the "Adventure" DSP for non 5.1 material.

I am using a KLF C-7 as a center channel but may finish converting another KLF 30 to a "tapered array" horizontally oriented center channel for the top of my Mitsubishi RPHD1081i 65" screen... which is driven from the component outs for DVD.

I am also considering picking up a new RC-7 since so much of today's better shows are engineered to rely heavily on the center channel. I think the local Klipsch minions would likely tell you to hold off on your decisions and fill in your sonic holes with the new K_7 series... which might be your best (but not necessarily most cost effective) course.

You will note that I have been using a KSW-15 for the front subwoofer. It has done its job well, but I am considering replacing it with the new Klipsch 15" sub or one of the new, upscale SVS units when they come available. I also have three KSW-12's which I run the rear speakers through. The rear speakers actually stand atop the subs and supply that extra kick for discrete explosions, etc. that occur behind the prime listening area. I think you should listen to Klipsch's soon to be heard products, but given your financial restrictions on a sub, you might emailing Tom Vodhanel (the V in SVSubwoofers http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ ) for they probably can give you more sub in your price range to complement your LaScalas.

I have been through about 20 (or so) other speakers with the V3000 (starting with a non-Klipsch units) and the first Klipsch I put in the loop was so more efficient that I have migrated to an all Klipsch 6.1 plus front effects. I guess I could say 8.1 but that seems to confuse folks.

I have contemplated replacing the Yamaha with Yamaha, Denon or Marantz top-of-the-line units... but in each case, I would have to give up some of the things that I have grown to love in the V3000.

Given your LaScala, Chorus II, V3000 base... you have a lot to look forward to in HT and music entertainment. Just don't underestimate the power of your Yammie and... ENJOY! HornEd

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Legendary Obsolescence:

KLF 30 L&R Mains

KLF C-7 Center

KLF 30 L&R Surrounds

KLF 30 Rear Surround

KLF 10 L&R Front Effects

Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and more... Tweakin' On!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-08-2001 at 08:59 PM

[jeffgeorge]

My opinion on front effects would be to stick with the Heritage line. Heresy's would give you the efficiency, and the same tonal characteritics of the LaScalas and Chourus II's. As for the sub, I love the KSW-12, but for you, I think the KSW-15 would work best.

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RF-3's : mains

RC-3 : center

RS-3's : surrounds

KSW-12: subwoofer

Receiver: Denon 2801

DVD: Panasonic DVD-A120

CD: Yamaha CDC-765

Cables: Tributaries

Sat Receiver: Hughes Direct-TV DD5.1

[boomer9911]

I agree with the JG, stay with the Heritage(another pair of LaScala's would be great, but so would a pair of Hersey's). I think the KSW15 would be good with what you have and price range you mention. Or wait and see what the new RSW15 sub will be like. From the opinions on the forum, it's supposedly leaves the KSW15 in the dust.

Klipschorns 93(front)

LaScala's(rear)(August )

2- KLF C7's(centre,rear centre)

Subwoofer(Xmas present 2001)

Adcom ACE-515 Enhancer(line conditioner\surge protect)

Marantz SR18EX A\V Receiver

2- Marantz MA700 mono blocks(Khorns)

Marantz DV3100 DVD

Marantz VM5100 SVHS hifi

Marantz DR4160 (3 disk carousel with single tray CDR)

Marantz CD4050 cassette

Toshiba 50HX70 HDTV

DVDO Iscan V2 (line doubler)

all Monster Cables speaker\audio\video\digital

[DwK]

Might I ask, Why not 2 KSW-10's ?

One for front, one for rear.

Or both front.

It would cost less, and would, I think, hit harder, no?

You have a VERY schweet set up my friend.

And I would have to agree with these other guys, the Heresys would be your best bet for front effects(next to the La Scalas)

As for the Rear Center, no one else has given some input so heres mine.

It seems to me another KLF-C7 would work well.

Or maby the upcoming RC-7. You could always mount a Heresy up on the wall sidewayz (or upright, if enough room), that would be supurb.

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K6-2 450

SB Live Value ( not 5.1)

Klipsch Pro Media v2 400 ( soon to be 4.1 )

2 Fisher STV-873's on front channel

2 Fisher surrounds on rear channel

[DillonW]

WOW, Great responses! In theory I love the Hersey idea for the surrounds, and wouldnt mind having another Hersey, or KLF-C7 for the rear center. Shoot, Ive already tried laying the groundwork to replace the Chorus IIs with another set of LaScalas, and move the Chorus IIs to the front effects position. But alias, here is my quandary; the WIFE factor. My A/V world rests square in the middle of HER living room. She has been VERY understanding up to now, but when I start getting starry-eyed thinking of the perfect additions to my surround system, she absolutely cringes at the thought of more bulky speakers in her Victorian themed living room. She said it wasnt in keeping with the proper ambiance? Yes, she was speaking some other language but I fully understood the implications; More big Klipsch Heritage speakers would void the Wife Acceptance Factor. Which brings me to another question, how the heck do you use a KLF 30 as a center channel, let alone a Belle? In my perfect A/V dream world I am surrounded by Khorns, with false walls that allow my front speakers and big screen to be flush mounted into the wall. But I am sadly awakened by the reality, and am forced to admit that all these beautiful speakers really would overpower a room that does, after all, double as our living room. Keep the suggestions coming, and no, the wife has to be able to stay, shes a keeper!

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Thanks,

Bill Dillon

[DillonW]

One other question, I noticed that there are at least one RX-V3000 and one RX-V1 owners out there. So, considering the front effects channels on these units are dramatically lower than the 6.1 channels, is efficency a primary factor to consider? Or would the tone matching still take precidence? HornEd, I know you have some first hand experience with this, because size is a major factor I have to consider, any opinions on how the RS-3 or the newer RS-7 might fit in my surround system? One other thing, which is better, using the digital optical, or digital coaxial connections??? Thanks!

Fronts: LaScalas

Center: KLF-C7

F-Effects: Needed

Rears: Chorus IIs

R-Center: Needed

Subwoofer: Needed

TV: Toshiba 61H70

DVD: Sony 560D

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V3000

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Thanks,

Bill Dillon

[DwK]

I have a question

How much did your Yamaha cost?

RB-5's as Front Effects? no?

How about a set of these?

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K6-2 450

SB Live Value ( not 5.1)

Klipsch Pro Media v2 400 ( soon to be 4.1 )

2 Fisher STV-873's on front channel

2 Fisher surrounds on rear channel

[DillonW]

I was glad to pay the $1110 for the RX-v3000 delivered. There are no Yamaha dealers where I live, so I ended up buying on eBay. It should be arriving in the mail tomorrow. Please, PLEASE don't let it arrive DOA!

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Thanks,

Bill Dillon

[HornEd]

That's a great price on your Yamaha RX-V3000... especially if it works. When given a chance to do their best with efficient Klipsch speakers, that particular Yammie does the job... especially for HT!

A couple of quick responses to some of your latest questions.

1. The trend in cinematic sound is for more discrete sounds broadcast from strategically placed speakers rather than the diffuse sound "clues" of Dolby Surround Sound and ProLogic days. The more discrete channels on a sound recording, the greater the need for a speaker that matches tone & timbre with your main speakers.

2. While the main speakers usually carry the burden for the musicality and punch of a sound system, ideally with a discretely recorded sound source, all of the six primary speakers (LFront, FCenter, RFront, LSurround, RCenterEffects, and RSurround) should be the same model. Unfortunately, that is not always practical. So, often one must rely on the mains (RFront & LFront) to carry the full spectrum of the best sound one can afford. Then, specialized speakers can be used and, hopefully, the shortfall in their tone & timbre will be offset by the strength and quality of the mains.

3. For HT, the MOST CRITICAL SPEAKER is the front center channel as it has the primary job of conveying the dialogue crisply and clearly... and making the correlation between the image that is supposedly making a sound... and the sound that is attributed to that image. In music, it is the mains that should take precedence. But make no mistake, HT is a visually oriented medium and the front center speaker is where sound engineers direct their primary concerns. Obviously, it takes more than laying a main speaker on its side and placing it over or under one's screen is not sufficient. Like the side surrounds, fashion usually dictates a rather smallish center speaker when compared to the mains. Also, the mid-range and tweeter are in the center and the smaller than mains woofers flank them. Before center speakers became popular, the "apparent" positioning of sounds could be created by sending a different "amount of a sound" to the left and right speakers so we two-eared information processors can determine the illusion of from where the sound is coming. Having a center channel to use in this sound imaging illusion gives the sound engineer a lot tighter control over how the illusion will form in that critical space between a spectators ears.

4. There is NO good reason to match the rear center speaker in a 6.1 configuration with the front center speaker. I made this mistake following "expert" advice. The mission of the rear effects (speakers) are to knit the rear sound stage together (from either a discrete or matrixed source) and does not have a critical function of extra clarity in the vocal frequency range. The closer the rear effects speakers are in tone and timbre to the mains the better (in my experience).

5. Side surround speakers that match the mains in tone & timbre give the best service if the room is large enough to enjoy ambient sound effects, as well as, the discrete effects found in the recent trend of better quality source material. Most "surround" speakers are designed to project diffuse sounds toward the front and rear of the primary listening area. "Matching" surrounds usually are considerably smaller than the mains they are supposed to match... partly due to the pressure from "interior decor sensitive" people that are so important in our personal quality of life issues. Frankly, it is a challenge to get such a person to convert the living room to early MDF in black vinyl... but real wood veneers can help... but usually not enough to allow the full-size speakers that are likely to speak better over the next twenty years or so.

6. As humans, we are most focused, like most other predators, on what is directly in front of our noses. The mains and center team up to create a primary sound stage which, along with the screen image, take up nearly all of our attention. The rear array alerts us to danger... and provides the comforting background that enhances the illusion of being enveloped by the sound and fury on the main screen. Some receivers, like the V3000, allow small separate amp wattage to drive Front Effects speakers to create a secondary sound stage (derived from the front L&R mains) that is higher and wider than the mains... and works best several dB's lower in volume than the mains. The role of the Front Effects speakers is quite like that of the Rear Effects and Side Surround speakers, to create an overall background effect while the mains and center speaker command our attention. 25 watts drives a lot of sound from a Klipsch... so do not underestimate (as I did) what you can do for front effects. But, also, do not make the mistake that the front effects (as they are presently configured) do not require the closeness of tone & timbre of other speakers in your system.

7. The integration of six or eight speakers needs to be done with an SPL meter (preferably analog) rather than by "ear" due to the natural bias we develop as listeners. Save you delicate ears for the show... not for the set-up.

8. I am in the middle of an extensive test of various approaches to bass management... and would like to reserve comment on "Subwoofers I Have Known" for the moment.

Unfortunately, I did not have all this spelled out for me six-months ago when I built my present system... and so I ran through a couple of dozen speakers before I settled on something that began to meet my reasonable expectations.

And, for whatever-it-is-worth, I have used digital optical cables, Z-series Monster component cables and speaker lines as first choices as needed. It seems that I got a lot more apparent benefit when I used higher end connectors between AV components in building showroom theaters in the past... and continue the practice out of force of habit. In the showroom long runs (the theaters sat 60-100 folks) we used heavily insulated 12 ga. stranded copper wire to good effect.

Someday, the furniture and speaker manufacturers may get together and develop an excuse to hide full-size speakers in some socially desirable and inherently practical (from the decor authority's perspective) piece of furniture. I trust the redundancy in this post is not too offensive for the old timers and not too arcane for the latest crop of lurkers out there.

I hope the length and continuity helps my flagging communication skills. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-11-2001 at 12:56 AM