Ideal Reference 7.1 System

[dneilan1]

Hi,

I am new to this forum. I discovered it after doing some extensive research on Klipsch speakers. I have settled on the RF-7s for fronts, and am trying to decide on the best total speaker system for a 7.1 surround system run through a Denon AVR-5803. I almost exclusively use my system for home theater. I am mostly unsure about the rear center left and right speakers, although, I would appreciate any suggestions:

My proposed configuration-

Front L & R- Klipsch RF-7

Center Klipsch RC-7

Surround L & R- Klipsch RS-7

Rear Center L & R- ?????

Thanks in advance,

Darren

[doudou]

if you set your new rear on the sides of your home theatre i think you should buy some RS7.

if you set them on the back wall of your home theatre you can try 2 RC7 or 2 RB 75.

but for a 7.1 system you should have a large room.

[BBB]

After experimenting with RF-7s, RF-5s and RS-7s with an RC-7 center this is what works for me.

Front L&R = Klipsch RF-7

Center = Klipsch RC-7

Surround L&R= Klipsch RF-7

Rear Center L&R= Klipsch RF-5

[doudou]

rf for surround...why not but it s more for listenning to multichannel record like sacd.rf are quiet direct speakers, surround sound in movies should be widespread.

with a full rf home theatre there s only one place were the sound will be perfect so if you want to watch a film with your familly you should choose your seat

using rs allow you to enjoy a movie at several places.

but your setup is perfect for one person.

[marksdad]

i disagree, bbb's got it right on, i hav had both in house, and the rf's do a much better job, full range sound coming at you from all sides

[doudou]

i just said that rs are designed for surroud movie channel.

so if dneilan1 use his system only for HT, rs should be enough.

of course with rf you don t need a sub,they reproduce a very wide range of frequencies.

i agree with bbb and you on this point.

[HornEd]

Oops, DouDou, you stepped in it this time! While tripole speakers (like the WDST RS-7) provide a much needed band-aid for acoustically challenged listening environments, they earn no place in an Ideal Reference 7.1 Home Theater! BBB is on the right track the Reference ideal is actually seven RF-7 monopoles although seven RC-7s run a close second (actually provide a wider sweet spot with horizontal placement of the front center and rear arrays).

Ideally, seven identical monopoles provide the timbre-match that makes the same sound sound the same no matter what speaker it comes out of and that is the current anticipation of DVD sound mixing pros since the ProLogic era of wimpy surround channels that, at best, provided auditory clues rather than full range sound.

Theater Sound (as recommended by THX) is tricked up to bring mediocre sound to most seating locations to cram more ticket holders into a given area rather than natural sound to the natural sweet spot that ought to be in your home. In a commercial theater, the surround speakers do not face the audience, but rather have a two-faced approach to sound distortion one faces the front of the theater and the other faces the back of the theater (these dipoles are also wired out-of-phase for further ear confusion). This arrangement makes just about every seat in the house one in which a given sound strikes the listeners ear from many different angles at nearly the same time. The human ear bombarded with such sounds cannot properly distinguish directionality or timbre-matching as intended by the DVDs sound engineer.

The tripole RS-7 using WDST technology provides a small monopole speaker aimed at the sweet spot to handle sounds between 58 Hz and 2,000 Hz. Sounds from 2,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz are sprayed to the front and the back of the room so your ears may not critically reveal the source and timbre of side surrounds which also tend to erode the quality of the front array IMHO. An RF-7 digs deeper with 32 Hz to 20,000 Hz aimed directly at you and the natural echoes in your listening area allow your ears to clue your brain into a degree of awesome naturalness not available in commercial theaters.

The author of the movie web site that Roger Ebert favors as the most authoritative on the Internet prefers movies screened in my Klipsch Legend Home Theater to any commercial movie or home theater he has sampled. Granted, Tom has not sampled a movie in my 7.1 Klipschorn based Heritage Home Theater (or that of my hero, Q-man) but the point is that matched monopoles (like RF-7s or Klipschorns) are the essence of ideal home theaters.

There are three primary keys to ideal home theaters:

1. The center channel delivers upwards of 75% of the total sound of a DVD so the front center speaker should be the best in your system or at least equal to your left and right mains. IMHO, the RC-7 comes closer to the output of RF-7s than most center to main comparisons. The RC-7 doesnt dig quite as deep (45 Hz to 20,000 Hz) and turns off one woofer on all frequencies used by the human voice in an attempt for greater clarity of speech. Timbre-matching of the RF-7 and RC-7 is further eroded by differing cabinet volumes and speaker components with the RC-7 being several points less sensitive than its bigger floorstanding brother.

2. To cover the full sound spectrum of a Dolby Digital DVD, your subwoofer array must reach 121.5 dB at 20 Hz. Now, granted that sounds pretty loud, but in reality, the sounds that go that loud on a Dolby Digital DVD are that loud for only a fraction of a second and so ear damage is unlikely but realism is heightened considerably. An adequate subwoofer array is second only to an adequate center speaker in ideal home theater enjoyment.

3. Only timbre-matching of all five (or six) discrete channels provides nearly the same sound from any location. 5.1 is the standard and 6.1 is the high end of digitally mastered DVDs. Currently, no DVDs have discrete channels to accommodate a 7.1 configuration. 7.1 is truly a 6.1 signal that splits the rear channel into two identical channels to feed two speakers in the rear array rather than one. My Klipsch Legend Theater is 6.1 and seamlessly covers the 30 diameter of a free standing circular building. Many modern receivers re-distribute 5.1 discrete channels into 6.1 or 7.1 configurations by mixing aspects of the surround channels.

So, its a bouquet for BBB and a PWK yellow BS button for DouDou this time around! HornEd

[markmaple]

I have been considering upgrading my surrounds and wanted some opinions. I currently have RF7 (L&R) with a RC7 © up front, RS-3II on the side and a RC-3II for a back center. I had been thinking of RS-7 for the sides, but now I'm starting to think about a pair of one of the bookshelf speakers for my side surrounds. I would want them wall mounted similar to my RS-3IIs. This probably eliminates RB-5s due to the rear port, correct? If so, probably the RB-35 or RB-75. Would this approach give me a better set-up vs the RS-3 or RS-7? Can the RBs be mounted to a wall easily and securely? Would you want bookshelfs mounted closer to ear level vs the higher suggested mounting of the RS spearkers? I also can't seem to find the MSRP of these two speakers. Does anyone know those MSRPs?

[doudou]

i agree with what you said,i don t know why you get on nerves like this.i don t speak very well english, that s probably why you didn t agree with me.

[steelie]

I'm curious about markmaple's question too, especially since my surrounds are RB 35s and I was planning on getting RS7s. I've got my RB35s set up on stands, a little above ear level when we're sitting on the couch and they're facing each other just a little bit behind us. I wouldn't mind putting them on the walls but they'd have to be 8 feet off the ground. Is that too much? I don't feel they're giving me the surround quality I want the way they're set up now.

(RB 35s have a keyhole in the back so they should be okay to mount without worrying. I don't remember the MSRP)

[bchild311]

NERD ALERT!

[TauRus]

Perhaps this dilemma with surround channel speakers has a solution: if you have a receiver like Denon 3803 that has A and B terminals for suround channels, you can place a pair of directional (in the rear for music) and omnidirectional (on the side walls for movies) speakers. Then you are able to assign particular sets of surround speakers to a particular audio format/input. It is also possible to use both sets together thus turning your system in a 7.1 setup.

[HornEd]

Ah, but the problem, TauRus, is that using bipole, dipole or tripole speakers for movies is a lot of BULL! Correctly set up monopole surrounds deliver honest sound... traditional THX approaches do not! -HornEd

[TauRus]

HornEd, I dont argue your opinion. In my setup I also use RB5II bookshelves as surround speakers. I just suggested this idea as a solution for those who are torn between the two types of speakers.

But, since we are on the topic, I also want to mention that at some point prior to purchasing RB5IIs, i did temporarily place Mirage Omni50 Bokshelves. They are somewhat smaller than RB5s, have a front mounted port and a woofer, while the tweeter is positioned on the upper side tilted towards front. There is a UFO-like metal deflector just on top of the tweeters. Clearly these speakers are not in the same league as RB5s and were there as temporary solution. They did not match the from Reference speakers in timbre, but i have to say that when i placed them upside down on the walls approximately 7 feet above floor, they created a very wide soundstage in the rear - the effect that was extremely impressive especially when i was watching DTS-ES encoded movies. When RB5s replaced them I immediately felt how even in terms of timbre the entire sound stage was, i had a lot better low frequency response from surround channels, but i lost that surround effect. I wouldn't want the effect in music, but for movies it was awesome. Again, as we know, every HT setup is unique and what worked in my case might not work in other places. I just shared that personal experience with omni directional speakers in the rear.

[dneilan1]

Well thanks to some of you for your thoughtful responses. If anyone cares, I have decided to go with the RF7s and RC7 in the front. I will use the RS7s for surround and center rear. I do understand that the best system would consist of all the same speakers, but I simply do not have the budget or room for 7 or even 5 RF7s. After auditioning a system with RS7s as surrounds, talking to someone at Klipsch about what he recommends, and taking into consideration the amount of room and money I have- I feel really good about 2 RF7s, 1 RC7 and 4 RS7s. Thanks again,

Darren

[skonopa]

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On 3/4/2004 6:28:25 PM HornEd wrote:

Ah, but the problem, TauRus, is that using bipole, dipole or tripole speakers for movies is a lot of BULL! Correctly set up monopole surrounds deliver honest sound... traditional THX approaches do not! -HornEd

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Yes, perhaps, but in my personal listening experiences, I actually preferred the sound of the RS-7s when watching movies or TV. I have a setup exactly as TauRus describes. RF-5's as 'A' surrounds and RS-7s as the 'B' surrounds on a Denon AVR3802 reciever, being used as a pre/pro going into a B&K Ref 200.7 amp. I tried it both ways with movies and I just prefered the more envoloping surround effects I get out of the RS-7s. We could argue theory all night long, and I tend to agree with you in the theory, but being the engineer that I am, I know all to well how much BULL thoery can be when applied to real-world situations.

Using all monopole speakers seems to worked well for you, but they did not seem to work as well in my particular setup.

However, I do much prefer using the RF-5s when listening to music, though.

[doudou]

like horned says having the same speakers is theoricaly the best solution.

having rs7 for surround is not the best solution, but it s a quiet good solution because it s cheapest and the sound should be quiet good.

don t struggle for speaker, don t forget that we haven t the same ears, so eachone might enjoy a different set up