Q-Man Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Artto, Please look at Horn Ed's topic about Six Klipschorns in a round room, in Home Theater and give us your two cents. Most of us know to never use a square room, I'm wondering if a round room might have some of the same problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 OK - just so i'm clear - changing the room is not an option. I could change the room if I wanted to also get a divorce. This room is in the middle of the house and will get the most use. I'm not expecting perfection from this room - i just want to set it up the best way possible. Maybe in the future I will set up a better HT and/or listening room in one of the bonus rooms where i have more flexibility. I realize this room is an acoustic nightmare - there is a row of windows on one side, a large archway door on another, two other exits, etc. If it was easy - i wouldn't have asked for suggestions. Why this room?? Because it's going to get the most everyday use and that includes TV and music usage. The dining room, kitchen, foyer, master bedroom etc. all feed off this room. Artto: I read your other post as you suggested and it gave me headache.... felt like i was back in my college physics class. All excellent info - you're just lightyears ahead of what i'm looking for or expect out of this room. I'm just looking for some real basic suggestions to get the most out of this room. I appreciate the work and research that you folks put into your rooms and I'm sure they sound incredible - but i'm not doing that now. I just want to do better then tossing some speakers in and hope it sounds better then a boombox in a field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 well to answer your question, i'd go with the RF-7's without hesitation. putting more money into the speaker is always the best option as the speakers will last longer than any other component in the system. as far as the surrounds...how wide is your viewing area? with a 19' room, i'm thinking that the 3 surrounds sounds like the better option. again, i'd go with as large of a speaker as you can afford. three RCR-5s? the only reason im suggesting to go bigger now is because it's cheaper in the long run in case you ever choose to upgrade to larger speakers. also, i would hate to be stuck with wondering how much better the bigger speakers would have sounded. as far as subwoofer, since you like movies i'd go with the RSW-15. You might also want to check out svs to look at some comparisons (i think svs might be cheaper as well). the powered subwoofers section of the forum talks a lot about these two brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 ---------------- On 3/26/2004 3:02:32 AM Q-Man wrote: Artto, Please look at Horn Ed's topic about Six Klipschorns in a round room, in Home Theater and give us your two cents. Most of us know to never use a square room, I'm wondering if a round room might have some of the same problems. ---------------- (same post as in HT section) There are some substantial problems with round, domed or oval/ellipse room configurations. The problem is also most likely to be related to the size. Please try & follow me on this. Round type rooms basically form a concave surface. Concave surfaces tend to focus the sound to one point. This is exactly the opposite of what you want acoustically. The radius of curvature determines the focal distance. The flatter the concave surface, the greater the distance at which the sound is concentrated. Concave surfaces might produce some awesome effects such as in whispering galleries (Chicagos Museum of Science & Industry has one) where you can hear a pin drop 100 feet away, but they should be avoided in listening rooms & small studios. Note that I said small. In larger rooms, where the rooms dimensions are at least several times longer than the wavelength of the lowest frequencies to be produced this effect may not exhibit itself as much. Rooms such as theaters, or even planetariums (that have Laser shows with big sound systems) often have or are built around dome configurations. But these spaces are quite large & consequently have a large seating area to begin with. Diffusion (preferably broadband) is what we are after for good sound & good sound distribution over a large® listening area, & this requires convex or geometrical plane surfaces and/or angles. Even geometrically progressive plane surfaces are inferior to convex cylindrical sections. Once the space gets large enough concave surfaces are not as much of a problem, but they are, technically speaking, not a good approach and should be avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Bb.. Why not simply construct a double wall with insulation in between the studs? You could cut over a foot off of the width dimension with this method of construcion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Dr. Who: I'm all for the bigger is better threory - but will it help with this particular room? I'll do the RF7s if it will really help overcome the limitation being faced. michael hurd: Interesting idea - hard part is which wall. you mention width - one wall has 4 windows - don't think I could do much there with out making it look off. The other wall has two exit points - one on each side. Not sure if just doubling the middle 12 would make a huge different. I could (real easy) have them put in a full wall book case at one end that is 2-3 feet wide. But that would shorten the length not width. It is also the wall i was going to put the fronts, center etc. And if i do the book case - I might get stuck with bookshelf speakers - not sure if that's good or bad. I'm going to take another look at the room today and see if there's any thing I've overlooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 BB - you might build a double wall and make the windows with a wide ledge and put plants there. They love the sun, and it would increase the wife approval factor. Since you are in the building stage anyways, it doesn't cost that much more to add a few changes while the building is in the planning stage. Bookshelf speakers are quite fine, but I would recommend putting a boookcase at the rear of the room instead of at the front. If you stagger the spines of the books, you will create a diffuser. Ceiling mounted rear speakers aren't the best, but your room is not that easy to work with in regards to the openings. Stand mount rear speakers would be the best option in my opinion, but if you do not stands, then that will not work for you. Also plan for installing conduit in the walls for speaker wire, and making sure that you have enough ac outlets in the room. Future proof by installing a few rg6 cables with wall plates for cable, and/or satelite, and don't forget a few phone jacks ( for phone or satelite receivers ). These items are a lot easier to install now and hookup, and definately a lot harder after the fact. Even if you do not use any of them right now, run all the cable and wiring into a basement or closet, where you can gain access to them to hook up at a later time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 I'll talk to the builder about the double wall on the window side as soon as i can. Not sure we'll put plants there - but the cats will like it. Either way is good for the WAF (I think). Can't put a bookcase on the side you mentioned. I've attached a rough layout of the house. It's not really to scale but close enough and I cleaned it up a little. That may help. The bright side is that the 2nd bonus has a lot more promise for a future HT buildout. I believe the dimensions are better for it except for the 8 foot ceiling. I also have various wiring (RJ11, RJ45, cable, etc) all through the house but thanks for thinking of it as well. I talk to the wife about at least putting WDST speakers just about one of the windows and the other on the opposing wall. She wasn't keen on the idea. Can't blame her - they would kind of stick out. Maybe if I can find them in white or at least a picture - maybe i can get her to reconsider. So what i've got is figuring out something for the front - I guess the RF7s - but they are big - might consider the RB7s. A matching center. And then 2 or 3 RFR5 for rears in a 5.1 or 6.1 respectively. RSW12 for the sub most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I definately concur that the 2nd bonus room has more potential. From the floor plan, I surmised that the 2nd bonus room is on the second floor. It only has one door opening, and fewer windows, which is easier on speaker placement. Also, the ceiling can be built down slightly, with a drop ceiling. The RF7 is big, but it still takes up the same amount of real estate as the Rb75 bookshelves, as they would be usually used with stands. Putting the bookshelves in a bookcase is going to be detrimental ( slighly ) to the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 I'm going to skip the bookcase altogether. If I get the RB75s - they'll be in stands. I placed a few other posts in different forums - but i'm starting to drill down into actual speakers and placement on the rears. For the rears - there's only two options 1) RFR3/5 in the ceiling. 2) RCW3/5 in the side walls - except they'd be up high (at least 7 feet) and probably a little back from the sitting area. Trying to decide which might work best. Also, if a 6.1 config wouldn't help greatly. And whether 3s are fine or 5s are needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 If you can do the Rcw5 in the side walls, that would be a better choice than in the ceiling. Even if they are up higher, they are not going to hurt any, just turn them upside down, so that the woofer is on top, and the tweeter is on the bottom. The woofer will be closer to a boundary ( ceiling ) and the tweeter closer to ear level. Pivot the tweeter before installing the grills, as they are fairly difficult to remove after being installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Way out in left field here, how about the staircase being open above and below it, to the wall of the dining room? Makes it a 19x22+-? Open staircases are neat looking too. One rear speaker could go above the entry way and the other could go under the stairs and over the door to the dining room. Went back and looked again. No entryway door. What about drop downs that recess speakers could fit into. Just a half a box hanging down from the ceiling with the front at a 45 degree angle to the ceiling and maybe even at a 45 degree angle in the back of the room where the corners would be if there were corners. Clear as mud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 The inwall speakers and the in ceiling speakers are designed as an infinate baffle unit, they rely on the volume of air inside the wall to control cone motion. But putting them in a much smaller volume of air, like you suggested would cause a hump in the frequency response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I didn't mean to install them in a box. I meant to install them in a half a box hanging out of the ceiling. Hanging down like a V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted March 30, 2004 Author Share Posted March 30, 2004 I was thinking of installing the RCWs on the "side" -didn't think of mounting them upside down. Putting them on the side i think would look better (think WAF) and help the sound (same idea as upside down). The problem was the rear channel (6.1 setup) - not sure installing in that manner to match the other two would introduce odd sounds. The stair case is fairly open in the front with just a railing for about half the stair case. Not sure about open it up more or underneath. Don't think the wife would go for it - plus one of the HVAC returns us there. I may be able to widen the entry way some but that may not help much. As for hanging the speakers as you mentioned - I think I'll run into the same WAF issues as i will with any surface mounted speaker. I like the suggestions though - lots of things I wouldn't have thought of. Going to continue to consider all options and at least toss the ideas out to the wife - i may wear her down eventually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Here is a picture of a Heresy placed in the ceiling for a rear surround. This is what I was trying to describe earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted April 18, 2004 Author Share Posted April 18, 2004 ok - that makes sense. That's not what i was thinking - that pic clears it up. The turned out really well. I'll pass it by the wife but I'm thinking no - maybe some day - upstairs. I think the RCR-5s and angle the tweeter is the best I can do.....I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 You could still use the in wall speakers in a smaller boxed in area like these and finish all sides to match the ceiling. At least this way the speakers could be aimed to fit the seating area without stickin out like a sore thumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruinsFan Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 that is a good idea but it'll never pass the WAF. I'd like to use RSW in a 6.1 config - but on one wall - the speaker would have to be about 8 feet up. Don't really have the ceiling space for a 7.1 with the RCR's and they only come in pairs - so I think I'm down to using the RCRs in a 5.1 setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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