timbley Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 I just picked up this little Panasonic unit tonight for $199.00 with a 30 day return policy. I couldn't pass it up because the talk on these forums about digital amps has made me very eager to have a listen. Late last year I picked up a Sherwood integrated tube amp from a neighbor because I wasn't exactly satisfied with the sound I was getting from my Creek 6060 with my RF-7s. Talk about tubes got me interested, and I haven't been disappointed. The Sherwood has proven very enjoyable with it's much richer, fuller tone. But those tubes generate quite a bit of heat, and summer is coming. Also, I worry about my girlfriend running it all day when I'm not here, and perhaps accidentally leaving it on and leaving. It's 43 years old, never serviced, and I've been warned not to trust it. So now I'm sitting here listening to this cheap, compact Panasonic home theater reciever hooked up to my CD player through the coaxial digital port, and I'm simply amazed. The sound is incredible. Sublime detail and smoothness. All sorts of instrument tones and subtleties are apparent to me that I've never really grasped before. Snares and Cymbals are spine tingling. They sound so right! It's only the first few hours, so I could just be in a good listening mood. But I think this is one incredible little unit. Digital amps sound to me to be a major breakthrough. If you haven't tried one of these in your system, I'd give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Thanks - fo the report. These amps definitely have me interested, although I will confess to knowing NOTHING about how they work. I wonder how the higher price models compare to the Sonys and Pannys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Kev---A couple of years ago a fella showed up at a Chicago Horn Club meting at my house with an expensive "turnkey" chip-amp, I think it was caled a Gaincard. We hooked it up to my Altec 605s and it sounded nice. A little while later Kurt Chang showed up with his first DIY "gain-clone". We hooked it to the 605s and most people thought Kurt's DIY amp sounded better than the expensive "audiophile" chip-amp. The fella that owned the Gaincard was all put-out. Kurt has been has since built several gain-clones and has been refining them. He also bought a Panny XR 45. I haven't heard the Panny but Kurt thinks it sounds like his DIY amps. So it must sound pretty good. You're in Chicago. PM me and I'll give you my phone number. I'll take you around and you can hear several horn systems using DIY chip-amps. Then you can see what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Timbley----In the immortal words of Frank Lloyd Wright "well there you go". It's great to get such satisfying sound and in so cheap and small a package, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Tim, Where were you able to find one for that price? Cheapest I can find is 250.00.............. Looks interesting........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 a friend of mine was shopping for a receiver for his bedroom system.... he wanted something low cost.... after he got the panasonic home, he was very impressed with it's sound.... after a week of listening to it, he replaced his denon 3805 in his home theater with the panasonic and the denon got put in the bedroom.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 I got the unit at Sears. They had it on sale for 229, but only had one left without a box. So I got the 199 deal! I really intended to go to Circuit City and pick up a HK DPR 1001, which I've seen on the web dipping below 500 bucks. But Circuit City wanted 699 for theirs. They didn't have any Panasonics left, and wouldn't budge on the HK price. So I went for the Panasonic just to see how it sounded. I'm very pleased. This morning I hooked up my surrounds and center channel. Again I say excellent! The sound fields and digital surround work great. I'm listening to Equinox on LP right now with Dolby digital surround and it sounds FAB. I love the fact that the remote actually controls my Toshiba TV, Toshiba DVD player, and Sony VCR. That's very cool! The subwoofer output seems to work well, and has some convenient quick change volume settings you can toggle through quickly. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 timbley, Do you happen to know what the difference is between the Panasonic SA-XR25 and the XR45 that TBrennan mentioned in his post? For under three small I think I will check one out. BTW, what kind of speakers are you running with it? Does anyone have experience with this amp on Klipsch Heritage? Thanks in advance for any replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted April 26, 2004 Author Share Posted April 26, 2004 The 45 has more features, including on-screen display, acceptance of 24/192 digital input vs. 24/96 for the 25. It has some kind of multi-room support. The 45 does DTS 96/24, while the 25 doesn't. Hmm, I wonder if that's worth having. I might consider moving up to the 45 Here's a link to a comparison spec. sheet: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CompareModels?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&catGroupId=11135&surfCategory=Receivers&items=63385%7C63389%7C I'm using RF-7s as my mains. For surround and center channels I'm getting by with RCA Linaum tweeter units. I haven't really taken the surround sound that seriously so far. I've thought of getting the RC-7s and RS-7s, but think maybe I should wait and get some Klipschorns. I've also got a Yamaha 150 subwoofer that actually seems to work pretty well with the Panasonic's sub output. The old RCA receiver made a mess out of the bass for some reason, so I was ready to sell the Yamaha thinking it a poor quality sub. But now it adds some meaningful and pleasing bass that seems to compliment the RF-7 well. If you decide to get one of these Pansonic amps, I'd recommend buying it somewhere you can return it in case you decide it's not the sound for you. So far I've been initially very pleased with the sound. But tonight it doesn't seem as captivating as last night. After a week I plan to hook my Sherwood S5500 tube integrated back up and see what my impression is then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 ---------------- On 4/26/2004 9:37:59 PM timbley wrote: So far I've been initially very pleased with the sound. But tonight it doesn't seem as captivating as last night. ---------------- I've read elsewhere about the sound of some Panasonic and Sony digital amps changing radically in sound at different times of the day and on different days. I wonder if they are that sensitive to power supply fluctuations or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Yup those chimp amps Kurt works up are really cool ! Kurt is one of the Chicago Horn Club guys I truly respect ! I think Alfredo is a stand up guy also. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted April 28, 2004 Author Share Posted April 28, 2004 About the sound seeming to change radically on different days: I've noticed this with a lot of my audio gear over the years. Usually late at night is when I enjoy listening best. Some suggest the power supply off the grid is cleaner at night. I also figure the ambient sound level is down, and our hearing perception is increased. I suppose things like temperature and humidity could also have a big effect on how our speakers sound. Right now I'm listening to the Kraftwerk website Tour de France soundtrack, and it sounds really nice. Temp: 74F, Pressure 30.11, humidity 54% 5:57p.m. Craig, what's a chimp amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted May 4, 2004 Author Share Posted May 4, 2004 Well it's been over a week with the Panasonic now. I'm very pleased with it, and will certainly keep it. It's very convenient, has surround capability, and sounds great. I've stayed up way too late listening on several occasions without a hint of listener fatigue. I would describe the sound with the RF-7s as clear and uncolored. I'm tempted to say thin, or cool. But really better would be to say that it's not thick or warm. It's neutral with superb clarity and good dynamics and rock solid imaging. Soon I hope to hook it up to my friend Gavin's Klipschorns and see just how bad I need to upgrade from my RF-7s, if at all. I've been so pleased with the sound with this new amp that I'm almost loosing interest in getting the Heritage speakes. I tried a crazy idea of using the amps Party mode to biamp the RF7s passively (foolishly.) This seriously degraded the sound as well as crippling the surround options of the receiver. The EQ was way off, allthough it sounded kind of eerie and moody on some recordings. Tonight I replaced the analog output of my audiophile 24/96 sound card with the digital by using a radio shack coaxial to fiber optic converter. I really don't know why Panasonic decided to put only one coax digital input and two optical. The optical cable costs more than the converter box! But the improvement on the computer sound to the receiver is obvious over the analog input. When playing CDs through iTunes I can hear no difference compared to running it straight off my DVD players digital output, as long as iTunes' volume is all the way up. Now that iTunes has lossless compression for CD imports, I think it's going to be my main CD player. I guess I should give the Sherwood tube amp one more listen here soon, but I'm having too much fun to want to unhook the Panny. I got an Xbox too! It uses the receiver's other optical digital input for dolby digital surround, which is great for games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 timbley, Interesting and very helpful report. "Digital" amp technology makes it possible to get good sound from horn-loaded speakers, and also have the convenience of ss. I'm a little surprised it has taken so long to catch on, but it's here to stay, and will probably take fair market share in the next few years. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 I think digital amplification will take a fair market share once it gets wider acceptance. Digital amps are lightweight, inexpensive and small, which leaves a negative impression with people before they've heard one. If it wasn't for your and other's posts on this forum and other forums about digital amps, I never would have thought twice about a Panasonic amp of any kind, especially a cheap surround receiver! I went to Circuit City last night where they've reduced the price of their HK DPR 1001 by a few bucks. I asked the sales guy to let me hear it. He immediately told me it didn't sound as good as a regular SS amp, but was nice and sleek and didn't generate much heat. We did an A/B comparison between it and another much hulkier HK receiver. They both sounded horrible with whatever source they were both using, and the switching box they were going through. I listened carefully as he switched back and forth. I couldn't hear a difference for the life of me if the volume was the same. There was no imaging, so I assumed the speakers were out of phase. The salesman reversed one of the leads for me. It still sounded out of phase! In such a setting, I don't see how customers could ever find out what sounds good and what doesn't. I really enjoy your posts Leo. Your smaller tripath based amp is very interesting. I wasn't certain what to expect from this Panasonic with it's 100 wpc rating. Your arguments in favor of a smaller powered digital amp for horn speakers makes sense to me. At this point, all I can say is the 100 watt amps seem to work very well with my RF-7s. It wouldn't surprise me though if your amp sounded even better. Maybe somebody will get a chance to do a direct comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 Yes, it is great having good sound that's cheap and convenient. But now I see Panasonic has the SA-XR70 coming out, which will allow direct digital input of multichanel 24/96 DVD Audio (with an appropriately equipped DVD player.) If I feel the urge to upgrade every time they up the ante, it might not turn out to be so cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdc Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 So did you ever listen to your friend's Klipschorns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Digital amps are now appearing all over the place. I think they are set to become the default in the relatively near future. Most people buy systems without much recourse to what is going on under the hood. As the shelves fill with decent sounding digital amps at the prices we are talking about SS amps will get consigned to the kind of status tube amps now occupy. When one of the amp manufacturers decides to follow up on the "adopted personality" that mdeneen and I were discussing in the Yammy digital amp thread then even the high end will be under threat. Imagine having the flexibility to own a single amp that will, at the push of a button on the remote, switch from imitating a 500 wpc Krell to a 3.5 wpc 2A3. Then imagine being able to program the unit to adopt different personalities for different disks, or even consecutive tracks on the same disk - it beggars the mind!! Incorporate that with the kind of active pre-amp/equalizer of the TACT and you have a single solution that will fit anyone's setup - from KHorns in a tiny room playing Rock to B&W CDM1's in a large room playing opera. Me? I might spring a couple of hundred bucks for a current digital amp - just to play with - but I would avoid spending big money on one in its current guise just yet. Sit on the sidelines and observe - great things could be just around the corner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 ---------------- On 5/5/2004 1:18:09 AM bdc wrote: So did you ever listen to your friend's Klipschorns? ---------------- I haven't yet had a chance to listen to the Khorns with the Panasonic. It seems like I've got some event to attend almost every night: bicycle racing, martial arts, lectures, going to see a movie. It just never ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 ---------------- On 5/5/2004 3:12:20 AM maxg wrote: Me? I might spring a couple of hundred bucks for a current digital amp - just to play with - but I would avoid spending big money on one in its current guise just yet. Sit on the sidelines and observe - great things could be just around the corner! ---------------- I agree. The possibilities are very exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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