Griffinator Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 12:04:51 PM picky wrote: Budman54: Thanks for the info! I see that your VSX-24TX has 90-Watts per channel (5x). So, it sounds as if -10 may be a commonly-used setting. Interesting. Has yours ever overheated when set at 0 db? Do you comonly use the 0 db setting? I think I'd be afraid too. Besides, 100 db is freaking loud! LOL! I will correct my post above to reflect the correct max volume of +12 db. Thanks again. ---------------- 90WPC is a phony number. Pioneer never rates their receivers all channels driven 20-20Khz. NEVER. If he put 90 real RMS watts per channel to his K-Horns, he'd be unable to sit in the same room with them. I've questioned repeatedly the "-x dB" volume controls on the integrated receivers from many companies on the market and their (lack of) accuracy. We all know that +3dB = doubling of power. I have yet to hear an integrated receiver that actually demonstrates this effect with their volume ajustments - I believe firmly that these receivers follow the same linear volume control that their predecessors did, only now they lie to you, the unsuspecting public, by using decibels as an indication of volume, despite the fact that the decibel - actual loudness ratio is quite logarithmic, where their silly displays and oversized potentiometers are still operating in a linear fashion as they operate the amplifiers inside. Try it with yours sometime. Tell me that the volume difference between -40 and -30 isn't dramatically different than the volume difference between -20 and -10. I'll step down off this opinion. For that matter, here's a deadly accurate test. Take out your SPL meter and measure the actual decibel levels at -70, -60, -50, right on up through 0dB. Are they actually 10dB increases, on a consistent basis? I'll wager otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted August 20, 2004 Author Share Posted August 20, 2004 Griff: All "phony numbers", brand-bashing and integrated amp-hatred aside, I do appreciate your candor. I acknowledge your wealth of audio knowledge and experience. However, I am most interested in the direct coorellations that other members are seeing in their rooms between their Elite receiver volume read-out settings and their SPL meter readings. For my purpose, after calibrating the system for the room using the built-in MCACC circuit (A circuit that has also been the root of much debate on this forum), the -10 db setting appears to be my own benchmark for listening to most DVD material at a concert or, (what I like to consider) a life-like sound level. Now, whether or not that -10 db setting happens to be real, logarithmic or linear isn't the issue for me, so much as it is a point-of-reference on my volume dial (like a notch) that I can come to each time and be certain that the amplifer is at the same exact volume setting. The fact that the -20 db setting may not actually be 3.333 times (10 divided by 3) more quiet than the -10 db setting is not really at issue here. That sort of makes the whole linear Vs. Logarithmic debate a moot point in this case. I am not saying you are wrong. You may very well dead-on and I may run your tests when I get the time. If the amplifier ratings that Pioneer throws out there (90 wpc) are phony, as you state, then I might be interested to know how they arrived at their stated figures, as well as how you arrived at yours. But, in defense of Pioneer, I will tell you this much: Regardless of any ratings, I could not be happier with the sound I am getting in both music and movies from the marriage of the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi receiver and the Klipsch Reference Line (RF-7s and the rest). My hat is off to both Pioneer and Klipsch for doing a fantastic job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 ---------------- On 8/20/2004 11:37:21 AM picky wrote: If the amplifier ratings that Pioneer throws out there (90 wpc) are phony, as you state, then I might be interested to know how they arrived at their stated figures, as well as how you arrived at yours. But, in defense of Pioneer, I will tell you this much: Regardless of any ratings, I could not be happier with the sound I am getting in both music and movies from the marriage of the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi receiver and the Klipsch Reference Line (RF-7s and the rest). My hat is off to both Pioneer and Klipsch for doing a fantastic job! ---------------- Yeah, that did come off rather harsh, didn't it? The way Pioneer arrived at their 90wpc rating is by measuring the amplifier in two-channel mode, where the actual RMS output power is typically 15-20 watts higher per channel than in all-channel mode. This is a trick Sony, Pioneer, and many other mass-market companies use to make their amps appear better than the competition's amps, since most village idiots think more watts = better amp. I won't directly accuse Pioneer of using the 1Khz test-tone spec method on their Elite series, since I have no evidence to directly support such a claim. I know they use such speccing on their VSX junk, because frankly, it needs all the help it can get. It's sad, really, because companies like Marantz and HK take a beating in that market because people proclaim "What?! It's only 50wpc? That's crap!" because they don't know any better, and neither do the salespeople. At some point, we need the FTC to demand a consistent output rating system that everyone must follow - kind of a "truth in advertising" clause to compel these companies to put out honest specifications for the consumer. BTW - I'm not an integrated-amp hater - there are some great ones out there - and I'm not a Pioneer hater necessarily - I'm just less impressed with their new stuff. I love the late 70's Pioneer monster SS stereo amps - got a friend who owns one and it's just beautiful, both to look at and to listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted September 2, 2004 Author Share Posted September 2, 2004 michael hurd: Hey Mike, last night I fired up the old turntable and when I set my receiver to "Phono", prior to cueing a record I turned the volume up to "Max" to see if the max setting was different in "Phono" mode than in "DVD" and the others, as is the case on your Marantz. Nope, no difference. The Max Volume setting indication in all modes is "+12 db". However, thanks for giving me the idea to at least check this out. Griff: Thanks, man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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